These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Back Into the Structure

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cade Windstalker
#601 - 2015-04-07 19:59:35 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:

not exactly, if they stick to their plan.. effective THIS JUNE, you will have an incredible short amount of time to get the training done.. and further although they removed teams, they did not change the job cost and TIME for also which teams offered.. meaning for an XL or even Large the build time is actually LONGER than one can expect.



FYI you need an open-quote to quote someone within your post.

Also Structure Changes are not scheduled for June, the Sov changes are scheduled for June (tentatively) and the Structure changes don't have a release date yet, even a tentative one, beyond "starting in 2015".

Also CCP didn't adjust times or costs up when they introduced Teams, they were a pure buff, so there was nothing to adjust back down for. They were supposed to encourage competition and a dynamic manufacturing landscape which would incur some costs. This wasn't happening so they removed them. None of which has any significant impact on these new structures.

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
not only that they're shutting off services of the old structure for them to be then added to the new structure..(remember if you're just starting out you better have your skill at 5 in order to even submit the darn job).. the entire "cooking" process would take a few days.. once again they're not thinking of industry and the changes impacted from crius regarding the structure transition phases.... this begins soon as they begin seeding. that's

and about the link....its already tied to skills which many have already trained and can use from day 1.. building the new platforms on the other hand pending on the sov holder and his/her talents would be a serious issue deploying the new "egg"


I have no idea what you mean by most of this except for that bit of "this begins as soon as they begin seeding" which is frankly silly and something you have no evidence for, it's just a blind assumption. As for the rest please clean it up so it actually gets your point across. Right now it doesn't make sense as english sentences to me.

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
in addition to the final "egg" you're going to need time to build its other parts..no confirmation if this is able to/will be able to build in an outpost or pos. it is a mess! furthermore although he's no longer with ccp... greyscale once stated "ccp will do anything besides SP reimbursement and are moving away from that stance".. so either at 5 we get all the operation skills and have no need of buying new skill books to train up if we've already reached max sp level for outbust construction or they get rid of the stance altogether.

PS.. I used teams and they were a benefit to use.. their vision was blind and I guess many just didn't have the isk to get involved into it.. it helped me build on lots of things and also SHORTENED times... although I have greyscales TE vision skills at max.. but industry should get revamped again (rorqual fix anyone??) before they even think about this transition mess because they're about to break things left and right.


Sounds like we should wait and see what the details of the transition are then, doesn't it? Because you've just said you have no idea what they're going to do, and yet you seem convinced it's going to be horrible for you and your manufacturing when we don't even have any details and this is months away from even starting to transition.
Cade Windstalker
#602 - 2015-04-07 20:10:46 UTC
Ioci wrote:

Under the new system if I have a POS it becomes a stand alone starbase with fittings and rigs options that define what it is going to be used for. There is no 'code mess' involved. If I have POS x 10 they become empty starbase x 10 and are completely re-written as such. Most of what we call POS mods now will be stand alone deployable structures under the new system and there is no code mess here either. Once it is repackaged, old becomes new. A battery will become a structure level starbase gun turet. If I have 600 Large True Sansha Beam laser Batteries, they become whatever new high slot module suits the Large Beam laser for a starbase. What they are doing is dragging out a grind process of arms build up by forcing us all to start on the ground again. They bring down the database for 6 hours and replace all our old stuff with new stuff. There is no code barrier. You are equating 'stuff' in a video game with tangible items rather than quantities of values. They still need to run duplicate systems as long as old versions are deployed but even in the phase out system they need to do that.

There is no 'doom and gloom' involved here. I indicated in the outset,


Except there is no "Starbase" under the new system, there are a bunch of specialized structures that have different bonuses and do different things. There is literally nothing in the new system analogous

Ioci wrote:
loci wrote:
All I can do at this point is react to scenario like angles and one such scenario I see is, CCP want us to essentially throw 10 years of sandbox out the window and do it all again, Shiny edition.


CCP doesn't have a development team. They have a nerf bat, police force. They have spent the past 5 years vigorously trying to undo everything we do and it doesn't work. I like the new system, it has great potential but the clear focus here is not result. It is in dragging out player implementation because when it's all up and running, we are back to where we are now. With a whole bunch of stuff, we don't need and don't use. Instead of having a Dark Blood tower and True Sansha Beam lasers sitting in a station, not getting used, I will have Starbase hurr durr durr sitting in a station, not getting used.

They can roll over inventory but they need to have a point in the new system to do it and right now? They don't. I want them to focus on that. I want this new system to be content and not a PITA to content, like it is now.


I'm really really not seeing where you're getting this from. You seem absolutely convinced that this is going to go horribly for you when it's months away and we have no details about how the transition is actually going to go beyond "yes, there's going to be reimbursement". Personally I like the direction CCP have gone with game balance in the last six years. It's a lot better than Railguns sitting around for at least five years as the worst weapon system in the game before being touched.

What about if, as CCP roll out the new structures that replace various POS functions, they put out Blueprints that let you take your POS tower or POS modules or whatever and the difference in materials between that and the new structure and then spit out the new structure and any un-used materials from the old POS? Would that be a suitably seamless transition for you?
Cade Windstalker
#603 - 2015-04-07 20:13:32 UTC
Arthmer wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Oh and for the wormholers, yes you will be able to anchor some (or maybe all of these structures). However there will be some activities / bonuses that remain tied to sovereignty. The exact details of this need to be discussed with the wormhole community to see what best fits their needs and play style.


Please let wormholers have the market-hub options! I really would like to be able to put up buy/sell orders for my corp mates so I can buy their salvage/relics/gas/etc and sell them ships/modules.

It wouldn't hurt to allow us to assemble t3 cruisers...


Heck, maybe use a combination of a Market Hub, security structures, and a Gate spec'd toward increasing Wormhole spawns to create a neutral Market Hub system in a C1 or C2 that has like 4-5 Statics to higher class sites. You can't bring big ships in but you can bring industrials and smaller stuff through. Could make for some pretty hilarious gameplay. In before someone names it The Goblin Market :D
Shaz'bot
Doomheim
#604 - 2015-04-07 23:36:43 UTC
Reading that devblog made me feel as excited about EVE as my first few weeks in-game did back in 2009.

Amazing, it all sounds just awesome and there's so much awe-inspiring potential gameplay that could emerge, I hope the ideas don't change much if at all.

+1 to everything!

Take ma moneh!
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#605 - 2015-04-08 00:40:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Ioci wrote:

Under the new system if I have a POS it becomes a stand alone starbase with fittings and rigs options that define what it is going to be used for. There is no 'code mess' involved. If I have POS x 10 they become empty starbase x 10 and are completely re-written as such. Most of what we call POS mods now will be stand alone deployable structures under the new system and there is no code mess here either. Once it is repackaged, old becomes new. A battery will become a structure level starbase gun turet. If I have 600 Large True Sansha Beam laser Batteries, they become whatever new high slot module suits the Large Beam laser for a starbase. What they are doing is dragging out a grind process of arms build up by forcing us all to start on the ground again. They bring down the database for 6 hours and replace all our old stuff with new stuff. There is no code barrier. You are equating 'stuff' in a video game with tangible items rather than quantities of values. They still need to run duplicate systems as long as old versions are deployed but even in the phase out system they need to do that.

There is no 'doom and gloom' involved here. I indicated in the outset,


Except there is no "Starbase" under the new system, there are a bunch of specialized structures that have different bonuses and do different things. There is literally nothing in the new system analogous

Ioci wrote:
loci wrote:
All I can do at this point is react to scenario like angles and one such scenario I see is, CCP want us to essentially throw 10 years of sandbox out the window and do it all again, Shiny edition.


CCP doesn't have a development team. They have a nerf bat, police force. They have spent the past 5 years vigorously trying to undo everything we do and it doesn't work. I like the new system, it has great potential but the clear focus here is not result. It is in dragging out player implementation because when it's all up and running, we are back to where we are now. With a whole bunch of stuff, we don't need and don't use. Instead of having a Dark Blood tower and True Sansha Beam lasers sitting in a station, not getting used, I will have Starbase hurr durr durr sitting in a station, not getting used.

They can roll over inventory but they need to have a point in the new system to do it and right now? They don't. I want them to focus on that. I want this new system to be content and not a PITA to content, like it is now.


I'm really really not seeing where you're getting this from. You seem absolutely convinced that this is going to go horribly for you when it's months away and we have no details about how the transition is actually going to go beyond "yes, there's going to be reimbursement". Personally I like the direction CCP have gone with game balance in the last six years. It's a lot better than Railguns sitting around for at least five years as the worst weapon system in the game before being touched.

What about if, as CCP roll out the new structures that replace various POS functions, they put out Blueprints that let you take your POS tower or POS modules or whatever and the difference in materials between that and the new structure and then spit out the new structure and any un-used materials from the old POS? Would that be a suitably seamless transition for you?


They are dividing structures in to classes. Starbase is the POS class and yes it will be a basic 'hull' structure that can be invented in to duties through fit and rig. Yes there will be a starbase under the new system.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Ranzera Stez
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#606 - 2015-04-08 05:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranzera Stez
Read the whole thread. I saw some questions that didn't get answers and I have a few of my own that I didn't see get asked. Real talk here CCP.

What is the plan for these structures in wormholes? There's 3 big missing pieces of this puzzle and I can't reconcile them with the information available.

1) A place to idle safely in wormholes.

Right now, we typically warp to the POS and stay inside the force field. I see that you've presented 2 structure types but neither seem like a good fit for J Space. Your large types supposedly offer mooring, but this doesn't make a lot of sense given the restrictions on quantity of ships that you want to allow to dock this way. Your extra large types don't feel like they fit in J space because they allow straight up regular docking. We can't do it now, are you going to add it?

2) Wormhole ship storage.

I don't see any structure that allows the storing of ships except the extra larges with regular docking. Same as above. Are you bringing docking to J Space?

3) Shattered Planet Systems

These have no moons. You can't anchor POSs here. These new structures don't have that limitation. Are you bringing player structures to Shattered Wormhole systems?


Other Stuff

4) Fuel and the fragmentation of player structures.

Many players get a wide use of bonused activities out of their POSs. I think it seems reasonable they will try to continue to do so. So now that you've made 3 structures to do the job of what 1 would normally be doing, what's the fuel costs going to be to run an Assembly Center, Research Center and an Extraction Center compared to 1 large POS? My WH Corp has a large Industry POS that runs that equivalent right now. I'm concerned about the fuel costs of running 3 structures to do what we're doing today with one.

5) Any player that wants to use structures can: Missing Medium structure types

I noticed with little effort there's no medium research structure. What gives?

6) Removing Turret AI

Are you serious?


ETA: Thought of one more. It would be *reaaaaallly* nice if we could launch PI materials to/from the new POCO equivalent when we're not in system. This would be a major quality of life enhancement.
Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
#607 - 2015-04-08 08:08:13 UTC
These structures are awesome.

I can not wait. You need to release something, like tomorrow. The market is screwy. I was making 200 Mil easy a day station trading structures and now I'm lucky to make 50 Mil, so I have quit and people getting their POS's blown up are just going to live in NPC stations for now. Good thing I started to do T2 production or else I would have had to drop an alt or two. I want to do more production but, I am not going to invest in more POS's right now.

Also I was just starting to consider buying structure PBO's and was going to put everything I had into that.

So thank you for releasing the information at fanfest or I would have been freaking out over my purchase and would have believed I lost everything, I feel sorry for everyone that has PBO's and have no idea what is going to happen to them. Hopefully you convert them to an equal valued similar structure type for them.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#608 - 2015-04-08 08:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Ranzera Stez wrote:
Read the whole thread. I saw some questions that didn't get answers and I have a few of my own that I didn't see get asked. Real talk here CCP.



They did mentione (somewhere) that they had thought of allowing docking where you can see space rather than the hangar, and they also mentioned they can still restrict any type of structure from being allowed in certain systems such as the shattered systems, so that is 1 and 3.

Also they said the images they showed where just demonstrative and aren't necessarily be representative of the final product (ie. no medium research lab doesn't mean we won't get one. They haven't yet said WHAT sizes of what things we will be getting though.

Nothing for the rest.
Idgarad
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#609 - 2015-04-08 12:01:23 UTC
If we do get public slots at a POS you'll need a public tax rate and a cap on jobs per public person. I'd hate for POS owners not to be able to control how popular they are, all those BPOs, BPC, etc in a bust publically accessable POS would be honey to a particular stuffed bear if you catch my meaning... wink wink.... nudge nudge... secret handshake...
Ranzera Stez
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2015-04-08 14:10:57 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Ranzera Stez wrote:
Read the whole thread. I saw some questions that didn't get answers and I have a few of my own that I didn't see get asked. Real talk here CCP.



They did mentione (somewhere) that they had thought of allowing docking where you can see space rather than the hangar, and they also mentioned they can still restrict any type of structure from being allowed in certain systems such as the shattered systems, so that is 1 and 3.

Also they said the images they showed where just demonstrative and aren't necessarily be representative of the final product (ie. no medium research lab doesn't mean we won't get one. They haven't yet said WHAT sizes of what things we will be getting though.

Nothing for the rest.


Space window docking sounds nice. I anticipate a lot of resistance from the wormhole crowd though.

I'm looking forward to what CCP has to say about 3, still. These systems seem to have less activity (that I can tell) compared to the average wh system. A policy reversal doesn't seem impossible to me.
Cade Windstalker
#611 - 2015-04-08 16:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Ioci wrote:
They are dividing structures in to classes. Starbase is the POS class and yes it will be a basic 'hull' structure that can be invented in to duties through fit and rig. Yes there will be a starbase under the new system.


I'm going through the dev blog, carefully, and I'm finding:


  • Assembly Arrays
  • Research Laboratories
  • Market and Office Hubs
  • Drilling Platforms
  • Observatory Arrays
  • Gates
  • Administration Hubs
  • Advertisement Centers


None of these contain anything like a current Starbase, and there is no mention of the word "Starbase" in the dev blog that does not refer to a current-mechanics POS.

Ranzera Stez wrote:
1) A place to idle safely in wormholes.

Right now, we typically warp to the POS and stay inside the force field. I see that you've presented 2 structure types but neither seem like a good fit for J Space. Your large types supposedly offer mooring, but this doesn't make a lot of sense given the restrictions on quantity of ships that you want to allow to dock this way. Your extra large types don't feel like they fit in J space because they allow straight up regular docking. We can't do it now, are you going to add it?

2) Wormhole ship storage.

I don't see any structure that allows the storing of ships except the extra larges with regular docking. Same as above. Are you bringing docking to J Space?


I'd be willing to bet there are some rather interesting discussions going on with the CSM over this, but I assume at present the intent is to allow docking in wormholes.


Ranzera Stez wrote:
5) Any player that wants to use structures can: Missing Medium structure types

I noticed with little effort there's no medium research structure. What gives?


"This has to stay within a reasonable risk versus reward scope, of course" at a guess having a Research Structure at that level of risk and price point doesn't fit with their goals for the structure type. There's also no Medium Structure for several of the other types as well.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#612 - 2015-04-08 17:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Ioci wrote:
They are dividing structures in to classes. Starbase is the POS class and yes it will be a basic 'hull' structure that can be invented in to duties through fit and rig. Yes there will be a starbase under the new system.


I'm going through the dev blog, carefully, and I'm finding:


  • Assembly Arrays
  • Research Laboratories
  • Market and Office Hubs
  • Drilling Platforms
  • Observatory Arrays
  • Gates
  • Administration Hubs
  • Advertisement Centers


None of these contain anything like a current Starbase, and there is no mention of the word "Starbase" in the dev blog that does not refer to a current-mechanics POS.


This becomes this
But I still don't think you understand the way they plan to implement the new system.
A warp scrambling battery for example, or a weapons Battery will no longer be floating around a POS. They will become modules you fit to a starbase but rather than convert current POS mods to the new fittings system, they plan to make them obsolete and require us to make everything new and there is no reason for it.

I do understand why you are seeing the 'flaw' in my questioning. All our current stuff has role in the new system but the new system adds hundreds of times more possibilities to structure options. We will still need to build 'stuff' from specialist starbases to rigs, maybe even module options current POS mods don't account for, like Armor plates. There is no Armor mod right now or Armor resist mod for POS. All POS are shield based tank but a lot of the stuff in the new system is current stuff that is convertible. I'd rather see my stuff become new stuff with role and augment my assets to what I am missing than have it all slowly phased to junk.

I understand that this means certain role based structure markets are going to launch glutted but -

I've provided feedback. If CCP understand what I am saying, I don't need to go any further. If they don't then I can try and elaborate further. I'll assume they do and end this.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Cade Windstalker
#613 - 2015-04-08 17:56:15 UTC
Ioci wrote:
This becomes this


No, that's a size comparison, the new structures are listed further down the page in the progression trees. There is no Large structure that is functionally similar to a POS, there are a lot of specialized structures at the same size bracket though. The old primary functions of a POS are being split out into Assembly Arrays, Research Laboratories, and Drilling Platforms, with guns and other modules being available in some form on all new structures.

Ioci wrote:
But I still don't think you understand the way they plan to implement the new system.
A warp scrambling battery for example, or a weapons Battery will no longer be floating around a POS. They will become modules you fit to a starbase but rather than convert current POS mods to the new fittings system, they plan to make them obsolete and require us to make everything new and there is no reason for it.


I understand that perfectly well, it's likely those old POS mods will either be converted into the new modules or have their value reimbursed, depending on which is better for the in-game economy. There are reasons for it (very valid ones in my opinion) you just don't seem to agree with them.

Ioci wrote:
I do understand why you are seeing the 'flaw' in my questioning. All our current stuff has role in the new system but the new system adds hundreds of times more possibilities to structure options. We will still need to build 'stuff' from specialist starbases to rigs, maybe even module options current POS mods don't account for, like Armor plates. There is no Armor mod right now or Armor resist mod for POS. All POS are shield based tank but a lot of the stuff in the new system is current stuff that is convertible. I'd rather see my stuff become new stuff with role and augment my assets to what I am missing than have it all slowly phased to junk.

I understand that this means certain role based structure markets are going to launch glutted but -

I've provided feedback. If CCP understand what I am saying, I don't need to go any further. If they don't then I can try and elaborate further. I'll assume they do and end this.


I would recommend you save your feedback, refine it, and repost it once we have more info on whatever sort of reimbursement they have planned. You've certainly made it clear that it's going to be tricky to avoid messing with small scale industrialists, but I don't think it's going to be impossible either.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#614 - 2015-04-08 18:22:59 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I would recommend you save your feedback, refine it, and repost it once we have more info on whatever sort of reimbursement they have planned. You've certainly made it clear that it's going to be tricky to avoid messing with small scale industrialists, but I don't think it's going to be impossible either.


Then maybe they should have asked for feedback when we weren't forced to speculate so much.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Cade Windstalker
#615 - 2015-04-09 03:18:48 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I would recommend you save your feedback, refine it, and repost it once we have more info on whatever sort of reimbursement they have planned. You've certainly made it clear that it's going to be tricky to avoid messing with small scale industrialists, but I don't think it's going to be impossible either.


Then maybe they should have asked for feedback when we weren't forced to speculate so much.


That defeats the point of asking for early feedback. They're looking for ideas and feedback on our general ideas, they've said there is going to be a reimbursement, what more are you looking for here?
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#616 - 2015-04-09 03:35:07 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Ioci wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I would recommend you save your feedback, refine it, and repost it once we have more info on whatever sort of reimbursement they have planned. You've certainly made it clear that it's going to be tricky to avoid messing with small scale industrialists, but I don't think it's going to be impossible either.


Then maybe they should have asked for feedback when we weren't forced to speculate so much.


That defeats the point of asking for early feedback. They're looking for ideas and feedback on our general ideas, they've said there is going to be a reimbursement, what more are you looking for here?


Much like you, what I am 'looking for' is more input from CCP. This back and forth you and I have been having has evolved my feedback but until they provide more details we are all still swimming in the dark.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Spacepilot101
TIME WARP Corp
#617 - 2015-04-09 11:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Spacepilot101
Would the ihub and the Territorial claim unit get replaced with the administration hub, or would exist both types of structures in future? Does anyone know this? And whats meant by "territory flag". Is just the logo from the ally on a wall of the ad-hub or does he replace the whole function of holding sov?

EDIT: found a post about that.
Inquisitor Magneto
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#618 - 2015-04-09 14:11:17 UTC
i have a question and if it was answered please do let me know where i can read up on the info.

The new structure system. currently we have many blue prints and investments in the old structures, weapon platforms inhibiters, etc. what will happen or become of these blue prints/ structures when the change comes. can we get our investment back or will this be a loss once the new items come out?
Krahazik Dragon
Black Crown Munitions
#619 - 2015-04-09 14:53:50 UTC
Just like to say so far I am liking what I am seeing here for the new system.

As to what happens when a structure is destroyed, I'd like to cast my vote for the wreckage idea. Would be fitting with the universe and setup.

Would there be a hangar like place or captain's quarters like place for players when their ship is docked or moored in/at a station? Would like to see something like that instead of the current system where you get kicked out into space in your pod when your ship is docked.

Would also like to see something like a corp lounge. A walk-able space similar to the captain's quarters, that is accessible to corp members. Could be an add-on module that's fitted into one of the station slots.

Manufacturing Director

Manufacturing all the amunition you need as well as other supplies and equipment.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#620 - 2015-04-09 17:54:23 UTC
Inquisitor Magneto wrote:
i have a question and if it was answered please do let me know where i can read up on the info.

The new structure system. currently we have many blue prints and investments in the old structures, weapon platforms inhibiters, etc. what will happen or become of these blue prints/ structures when the change comes. can we get our investment back or will this be a loss once the new items come out?


Phased-out structures and anchorables and their blueprints will be reimbursed.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!