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Dev blog: Back Into the Structure

First post First post
Author
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#561 - 2015-03-31 03:22:09 UTC
Exciting,

my 3 concerns are

1. the interbus market system.

there should be no npc assisted market in null.

instead of inter bussing in goods, allow for the players to create a logistics system to enable safe travel to market hubs.

target several several system throughout null space as key systems that allow for infrastructure to be placed that allows for jumps into empire space where there is a corresponding player structure.

for example : the spacers alliance has control of 50 some star systems one of them being a system that allows for creation of a jump point that has access to several systems in empire space. as long as the system and at least one of the empire space systems has the correct structure in place a safe jump can be made into or out of null/empire space.

of course it will have a fuel cost and of course it will be destroyable.

the point of this is to create systems through out null space that have extra value , these systems are spread out so it will be difficult for any one alliance to have more than just a few thinking maybe 1 2 or 3 but 4, 5, or 6 would be rare.


2. the mooring system while it is cool . i think mooring should have some kind of benefit .
maybe moored ships can act as extra player controlled turrets to the structure. because as is why moor when you can keep it safe somewhere else ?


3. destroyed structures and their goods.

this is a toughie but the goods should be lootable and the player should be able to protect their goods.

maybe a insurance system that gets more costly as the items get bigger / more volume .

ie blue prints and such aren't too expensive but modules and huge quantity of materials/componets get expensive.
maybe rigs that offset the cost .

insured equipment get jettisoned to a player selected book mark.

uninsured stuff is up for grabs.



Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#562 - 2015-03-31 03:33:22 UTC
There's much too much for me to take in here, but I like the boldness of the initiative.

Also, the discussion in this thread is happening at an unusually high level, which has made it very informative to read.

The devil will always lurk in the details, but from here this looks great.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Escuro
SUN PRAISING INTENSIFIES
DarkSide.
#563 - 2015-03-31 11:55:18 UTC
OK, new structures. An important change, but raises lots of questions not visible in the blog.


  • Some of the dev-posts mentioned that you can place the stucture EVERYWHERE. So it's time to build outposts in WH space, anchore some super-caps and voila - super indestructible base is ready? I am AGAINST placing something larger than M sized in WH space. Let's get back to uninhabitated dangerous WH you had from the start.
  • The intel structure - once again, if it can disrupt D-scan, pinpoint cloakies etc. IT IS A HUGE advantage to WH carebears. No no into WH space.
  • Ship docking/mooning - what is the targeted ammount of ship mooning into the structure which will replace the tower. Lot's of people actually live in their Control towers, WH people actually have over 50b+ of assets on a tower, ships, fitting etc. How limited do you plan those strucutures?


Also, the concept of making the warp speed lower, d-scan block, anti-cloak is full of **it. EVE is a game that should be dangerous, not a game of "place a telescope and farm happy ever after". It's not so easy to gank a carebear even today, with everyone aligned, tons of different anomalies etc. How should we ambush later on?
Webster Carr
Carr Consolidated Corporation
#564 - 2015-03-31 13:19:49 UTC
After watching the Structures presentation on you-tube I have to say I was really impressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hen92QFrDUo&list=PLQvKSs1k6DLOiGGb44McruXcndTtzUUlu&index=36

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/


I especially liked the idea for streamlining the deployment, operation, and configuring of structures. You fit the structure like a ship and deploy into space. A structure has service slots, these determine what type of services the structure can offer, assembly array, reprocessing, etc. (With certain structures getting bonuses to certain services.) Fuel is consumed by use of it's services not by just existing. Nice, intuitive, and understandable game play.


Quote:

D. Drilling platforms

Focused on resource harvesting as a whole.

Service module possibilities: Reprocessing, moon harvesting, reactions, mining, gas harvesting. We also are considering new harvesting gameplay mechanics. We could for instance have pollution gas clouds form around drilling structures that see high activity, or seed small planetoids in specific asteroid belts and scanable sites which require a drilling platform to break it down in smaller harvestable rocks.
Rigs possibilities: Anything that improves reprocessing, moon harvesting, reaction, tractor beam range effectiveness.



This part of the Dev Blog Sparked an idea: Why not allow the Rorqual some Service slots and bonuses similar to a Drilling platform, essentially turning it into a mobile Drilling Platform. (It would be immobile when deployed but possibly use the same 'reinforcement' mechanics as structures giving a reason to park a several billion isk ship in an asteroid belt.)

This idea of containing structure slots could be extended to other capital ships as well. (Anyone ever read the Star Wars novels with the smuggler Booster Terrik who captured an imperial star destroyer and turned it into a mobile smuggler's marketplace?)

Just an Idea,
Web
Webster Carr
Carr Consolidated Corporation
#565 - 2015-03-31 15:00:15 UTC
Rena'Thras wrote:
The Bad:

PLEASE reconsider here. I agree that specialization should (as it does now) add benefits. However, you shouldn't make it where people CAN'T be inefficient. Inefficient is necessary for small things that need to grow. Whether children, learning new things, or starting a new group - inefficiency is a necessary first step to grow into something that is more efficient and powerful later.

.

Since it's easy to criticize but to execute you need ideas and suggestions, here are mine:

1) Having the ability to make supermassive things is cool - but don't overlook the builders in the sandbox that want to build a fort instead of a castle! Can you not leave in Small/Medium/Large POSes and possibly institute two types of Outposts? You can add in an X-Large POS if you really want something with that greater size (as well as adjust the structure sizes of the existing Large and Medium somewhat), and all existing Outposts would be the regular variety with the Super Outpost being an entirely new thing (complete with bragging rights when CFC or N3 build their first one). Balance and tuning and all that, but KEEP the granularity! It's a great thing, why break it when you can build/add TO it?

2) Reconsider the shields. Shields are pretty.

3) While making specialization more attractive is good, allow generalization (at much lower levels of efficiency) to stay in the game. Read the description of the Celestis sometime - there are a lot of small Corps and Alliances that need structures that meet that same goal. (I don't remember the exact wording, it's something like "Small Corporations who have limited resources like the Celestis because it's adaptable and relatively inexpensive.)

.

Thanks for your time!


Hope this feedback - positive, negative, and suggestions - can be useful.



Now here is an idea that might solve several issues: What if, in addition to all of the specialized types there was added a generalized structure with lesser bonuses to all roles. It could never equal the raw bonuses of what the specialized structures could do, but it could fit and do all or most of the activities. In addition: when the transition came all of the existing POS structures could simply be transformed into the new type of general structure with similar mods in place.

Web
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
#566 - 2015-03-31 20:23:14 UTC
A few additions or ideas:

Firstly zero security without sovereignty is going to get an immense boost with this new structure update. Think of added trade and public stations and also lowering security status will be nice to tweak here. The number of pilots will certainly increase.

Secondly the important moon mining R64 and R32 should be dependent on the presence of a rorqual, this ship should be the only one to actively mine these.

Thirdly it would be more wise to do the restructuring of the structures first before the sovereignty changes. Many sovereignty mechanics rely on the structure set up. For example I fear that with the new structures new fortresses are created which are almost invincible when attacking because there are too many variables in play.

Stick to the bottom up approach as is suggested, because doing sovereignty first makes no sense when the important building blocks are not yet present.

Just my 2 cents.
-Ela
Tejoe Nightstar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#567 - 2015-04-01 01:22:08 UTC
There should be a +25% time increase per station's size for every level above M. The larger (and much higher priced) structures need to be made of sterner stuff.
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
#568 - 2015-04-01 13:05:13 UTC
Things have been mentioned befor. I just want to add pointing force in that direction.

> Winner gets the stuff. This is eve, HTFU. It's that simple. Even if there's an entity roaming all over destroying everything - so be it. If we wanted safe-drops we'd be playing other MMOs. If you transit to a state in which everything can be destroyed, consider a proper transition phase in which vets, big traders and indies have options to easely reorganize (or move) their stuff for the new system. Nothing, should be safe nowhere, and if there is a 100% safe (high-sec NPC stations) you should finally consider starting a m3 cargohold charge to balance things out.

> Forcefield were not _just_ bad. Don't forget, that having your enemy outside the forcefield, you have that EYE-2-EYE thing. Agressors could see what owners are about to do. Staging fleets, safe but visible. I would hate to see POS power games becoming similar to docking games at station. Please, try to hold on to the fun things about forcefields.

> Unique homes and combat/defence tactics. Currently owners have power over how they setup thier structures. When you consider "linking structures together" is bad complexity - reconsider. We are still eve players. I'd hate to just drop one structure and call this my home (it would look just like 1000 others). I like how owners currently have to balance out "industrial power vs defensive capabilities". And i love how everyone can analyze a tower and decide on how to engage.

> Fuel requirements, if it has no fuel, it should be offline! It should be possible to notice if a structure has not received the necessary attention. You want to kill AFK empire but create sort of AFK structures?
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#569 - 2015-04-01 15:01:23 UTC
Jon Hellguard wrote:
Things have been mentioned befor. I just want to add pointing force in that direction.

> Winner gets the stuff. This is eve, HTFU. It's that simple. Even if there's an entity roaming all over destroying everything - so be it. If we wanted safe-drops we'd be playing other MMOs. If you transit to a state in which everything can be destroyed, consider a proper transition phase in which vets, big traders and indies have options to easely reorganize (or move) their stuff for the new system. Nothing, should be safe nowhere, and if there is a 100% safe (high-sec NPC stations) you should finally consider starting a m3 cargohold charge to balance things out.

> Forcefield were not _just_ bad. Don't forget, that having your enemy outside the forcefield, you have that EYE-2-EYE thing. Agressors could see what owners are about to do. Staging fleets, safe but visible. I would hate to see POS power games becoming similar to docking games at station. Please, try to hold on to the fun things about forcefields.

> Unique homes and combat/defence tactics. Currently owners have power over how they setup thier structures. When you consider "linking structures together" is bad complexity - reconsider. We are still eve players. I'd hate to just drop one structure and call this my home (it would look just like 1000 others). I like how owners currently have to balance out "industrial power vs defensive capabilities". And i love how everyone can analyze a tower and decide on how to engage.

> Fuel requirements, if it has no fuel, it should be offline! It should be possible to notice if a structure has not received the necessary attention. You want to kill AFK empire but create sort of AFK structures?


You want sov nullsec empty, well you will get that.
Kell Taron
Cattywampus Affairs
#570 - 2015-04-01 17:06:58 UTC
Question

1. Will there be a new set of skills to train along with the new structures?

2. Will any of our current spaceship skills effect how we can fit the new structure slots, or how well we can operate them?

3. How will our current structure skills pass over to the new system?

Thanks
Webster Carr
Carr Consolidated Corporation
#571 - 2015-04-01 22:33:00 UTC
One thing we haven't heard much about yet is the armament of the new structures. With the new structures being able to be anchored freely: where is the Military Defense Fort Structure? Am I the only one thinking of anchoring one of these on each side of a gate to a dead end system, manned and ready to defend my newly named Webville system from all intruders (Yes I realize they can just jump behind them)? (Ok you may have figured out that in RTS games I tend to turtle.)

Which leads me to the following questions:

Are structures going to be able to be able to anchored close enough to one another to provide mutual support and defense? (Please Yes!)

If so will structures be able to anchored close to star gates, territory claim units, infrastructure hubs, etc... in order to provide offense/defense?

What will the passive offensive/defense options for structures be? (Please don't tell me that if they happen to be attacked while you're at work they don't fight back at all...even though fitted with weapons. f I go on vacation I don't want to come back and find my wormhole home in ruins even though it was well supplied/defended.)

What will the possible defensive and offensive capabilities of the various structures? What should they be?
Could/should a medium be equal to a Battleship, a Large structure equal to a Dred, and a XL equal to a Titan in offense?
To analyze further: will a Medium structure fit Large Guns while Large or XL structures fit the same XL guns that are on dreads and titans?

Will the larger structures with Entosis capture be able be defended using their own weapons? (And/or fit their own Entosis mod in their high slot to be used by the structure next door for defense?) How will these larger Entosis structures work in Wormholes with no Sov? *If I were to make a recommendation: have only the XL structures deal with Entosis, anything smaller use damage/reinforcement mechanics, there needs to be something able to be docked at that you can put in a wormhole...

Will you be able to fit remote repair mods in the high slots to support a defending fleet (and/or drones)? (And or other structures.) Essentially making fighting at/defending your station a very strong tactical advantage.

Will there (should there) be a fortification structure with bonuses to weapons/defenses? (Think the Wormhole forts from Weber's Honor Harrington series, or Babalyon 5, or Deep Space 9: Will you be able to build a station (or group of stations) at a key defensive point that it takes a large fleet to neutralize.)

Will we be able to build an armed POCO (or similar structure that performs it's function).? Preferably one that can be docked at...I like the idea of my colony sending it's shipments straight up to my comfortable, well defended, station..


-Web

Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#572 - 2015-04-02 01:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Patri Andari
Please leave my well earned though pitifully compensated R&D grind for datacores alone. Thankyou.

I am sorry. I will elaborate. Research Project Management (RPM) is a 50 million isk skill with a high rank ( i think 5) that has but one use. It allows a character to access additional research agents.

Unlike the specific science skills which have other functionality, RPM ONLY exists to aid in datacore collection. I have it trained to level 5 on several characters who I have done the grind to access multiple agents.

It would be daft to expect CCP to reimburse the specific science skills needed to get the datacores (i.e. quantum physics), but please tell me that you have a plan to give back any skill points devoted to RPM if you remove R&D agents as a source for datacores completely.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

Webster Carr
Carr Consolidated Corporation
#573 - 2015-04-02 13:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Webster Carr
Patri Andari wrote:
Please leave my well earned though pitifully compensated R&D grind for datacores alone. Thankyou.

I am sorry. I will elaborate. Research Project Management (RPM) is a 50 million isk skill with a high rank ( i think 5) that has but one use. It allows a character to access additional research agents.

Unlike the specific science skills which have other functionality, RPM ONLY exists to aid in datacore collection. I have it trained to level 5 on several characters who I have done the grind to access multiple agents.

It would be daft to expect CCP to reimburse the specific science skills needed to get the datacores (i.e. quantum physics), but please tell me that you have a plan to give back any skill points devoted to RPM if you remove R&D agents as a source for datacores completely.


I agree, keep the Research Agents as a source of data cores.

As an alternate source you could build a Research Structure and put a 'DATA CORE Research Lab' in one of it's structure slots. You then set that lab to work in the same manner as you would an NPC research agent. Data cores that the lab produces are stored in your personal hangar on the structure (like a POCO). You then swing by on a regular basis and collect data cores in a method similar to the current Research Agent process or somewhat like PI production.

Perhaps the structure DATA CORE lab could even could use an amount of simple P2 PI as input, differing based upon the data core desired: Mechanical Engineering uses Mechanical Parts, Electronic Engineering uses Miniature Electronics, Nanite Engineering uses well Nanites... In other words it works like industry or research, with the number of Data Cores Job slots being determined by your Research Project Management skill.

In essence you could use a NPC agent or your own Research Lab or a combination of the two to a limit of determined by your Research Project Management skill.

Just like current BPO research you have the option to use a research lab at an NPC station or build your own... Simple and intuitive, and follows existing in game methods. (Of course the production of DATA CORES by the lab would be greater than that of Research Agents.)

In my opinion the sandbox is enhanced by having multiple routes to the same goal.

-Web
Warden Archerus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#574 - 2015-04-02 21:27:48 UTC
Will there be a max range from the system that structures can be anchored?
Tejoe Nightstar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2015-04-03 05:45:45 UTC
I have found three ways to generate datacores.


  1. Research Agents
  2. drops from data anomilies
  3. LP stores of a few (FW?) corporations


This does not need to be increased.
Webster Carr
Carr Consolidated Corporation
#576 - 2015-04-03 13:16:47 UTC
Tejoe Nightstar wrote:
I have found three ways to generate datacores.


  1. Research Agents
  2. drops from data anomilies
  3. LP stores of a few (FW?) corporations


This does not need to be increased.


If done as I would suggest Data Cores from a Research Structure slot would use one of your 'Research Project Management' Agent slots and would simply be an alternative (though perhaps more productive) method of acquisition rather than an increase.

-Web
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#577 - 2015-04-03 15:04:01 UTC
Webster Carr wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
Please leave my well earned though pitifully compensated R&D grind for datacores alone. Thankyou.

I am sorry. I will elaborate. Research Project Management (RPM) is a 50 million isk skill with a high rank ( i think 5) that has but one use. It allows a character to access additional research agents.

Unlike the specific science skills which have other functionality, RPM ONLY exists to aid in datacore collection. I have it trained to level 5 on several characters who I have done the grind to access multiple agents.

It would be daft to expect CCP to reimburse the specific science skills needed to get the datacores (i.e. quantum physics), but please tell me that you have a plan to give back any skill points devoted to RPM if you remove R&D agents as a source for datacores completely.


I agree, keep the Research Agents as a source of data cores.

As an alternate source you could build a Research Structure and put a 'DATA CORE Research Lab' in one of it's structure slots. You then set that lab to work in the same manner as you would an NPC research agent. Data cores that the lab produces are stored in your personal hangar on the structure (like a POCO). You then swing by on a regular basis and collect data cores in a method similar to the current Research Agent process or somewhat like PI production.

Perhaps the structure DATA CORE lab could even could use an amount of simple P2 PI as input, differing based upon the data core desired: Mechanical Engineering uses Mechanical Parts, Electronic Engineering uses Miniature Electronics, Nanite Engineering uses well Nanites... In other words it works like industry or research, with the number of Data Cores Job slots being determined by your Research Project Management skill.

In essence you could use a NPC agent or your own Research Lab or a combination of the two to a limit of determined by your Research Project Management skill.

Just like current BPO research you have the option to use a research lab at an NPC station or build your own... Simple and intuitive, and follows existing in game methods. (Of course the production of DATA CORES by the lab would be greater than that of Research Agents.)

In my opinion the sandbox is enhanced by having multiple routes to the same goal.

-Web


I am sorry. The skill has an 8x multiplier not 5x. The suggestion by Web at least gets one thinking about was to keep the skill meaningful rather than just stip out all funtionality.

However, somethng tells me that CCP would dumb down the skill to 3x multiplier or some other weaksauce.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

Olivia Moon
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#578 - 2015-04-04 04:13:02 UTC
I honestly believe that, if I'm correct, the structures affect the price of minerals and ices.
To bring positive effect to the market in the universe,
it won't be a bad idea for the new structures employing more resources or fuels to power them.
In a logical sense, since the structures get much bigger, more fuels should be reasonable.
The supply of everything is overwhelmed at the moment.

Apart from that, the structures look awesome!
EVE is migrating from some numbers into a more realistic, second-life experience!
Cade Windstalker
#579 - 2015-04-04 08:38:07 UTC
Big question for the devs and I don't think it quite fits in any of the existing threads since it deals with how all of the structures are going to interact outside of Sov space.

In Sov I think the Entosis mechanics are going to work well, at least once the kinks are hammered out and they get some testing. The idea of a scramble for nodes over an entire Constellation sounds like a ton of fun. The problem is that it doesn't necessarily work in Wormholes or some parts of Low Security space (for example anywhere that shares constellation space with High Sec) and doesn't seem to be intended for the structures smaller than XL size.


  • Are these smaller structures going to be the current, albeit smaller, Structure Grind with Stront timers?
  • Or is it going to be a more limited version of the Entosis mechanics?
  • If the latter what would this look like and at what size of Structure does the answer become "just shoot it", if ever?
  • Is the 4 hour vulnerability window going to apply to all structures, and how is it going to interact with Personal Structures? It doesn't really seem fair if a player anchors something analogous to a Personal POS and then it gets wrecked while they're offline because they're not awake during their Corp or Alliance's vulnerability window (if they want to sync them up that's fine but should they be forced to?).
  • and on a related note, if someone anchors a personal Structure that is subject to Entosis or at least sends out a warning mail, does that mail go to the entire corp/Alliance or does it just go to the person in question (or something in between)?
Oxide Ammar
#580 - 2015-04-04 10:27:24 UTC
Escuro wrote:
OK, new structures. An important change, but raises lots of questions not visible in the blog.


  • Some of the dev-posts mentioned that you can place the stucture EVERYWHERE. So it's time to build outposts in WH space, anchore some super-caps and voila - super indestructible base is ready? I am AGAINST placing something larger than M sized in WH space. Let's get back to uninhabitated dangerous WH you had from the start.



I recall (from the Fanfest) they meant by anchoring structure everywhere, that we won't have the mandatory requirement of anchoring POS to moons and outposts to planets. You will be able to anchor POS in the middle of no where, Pair that with huge systems that you can't D-scan from one side to another you will be able to anchor POS in safe spot till you get probed successfully. Blink

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.