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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Let's talk about Capitals and Supercapitals

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Author
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#141 - 2015-03-28 03:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Ok, I have some basic ideas for what I could see as decent overhauls for each (combat) capital class. Dreads and titans in particular would receive particular attention to how XL weapons would be changed.

  • XL weapons get their damage brought up 500%, and titans get their damage bonuses removed. All titans instead receive range bonuses to their weapon systems.


  • Siege and triage modules are removed from the game, and instead dreadnaughts and carriers get different modes.
  • -Dread Siege Mode affects instead tank and range, akin to how bastion works, and carriers get triage mode (hull bonuses on dreads as well as possibly a small dmg bonus on siege mode to bring it up to current dps lvls would be appropriate). In addition to this, they both gain an Attack mode bonus which gives a weapon sig reduction bonus for dreads and drone speed for carriers, as well as a 25% tracking increase for both. It does not have a rep bonus, though.

    -Supercarriers and titans gain 'Citadel Mode' which extends their shield hp into a large starbase-style bubble around them, and become immobile. Members who are in fleet when this gets turned on do not get launched out by the shield, and those who aren't do get forcibly ejected, leading me to believe some physics may need to be tweaked to make this a reality.


  • All capital transfer arrays get their range extended by 250%. The current range bonuses get dropped, and the levelled bonuses for racial carriers and supercarriers becomes this:
  • -Archon and Aeon get a 5% bonus to the EM damage of drones per level

    -Chimera and Wyvern get a 5% bonus to Kinetic damage of drones per level

    -Thanatos and Nyx get their damage bonus changed to thermal, and gain a 7.5% bonus to local armor repair amount per level.

    -Hel and Nidhoggur get a 5% bonus to Explosive damage of drones per level, and both gain a 7.5% bonus to local shield repair per level. The Nidhoggur gets a low moved to a mid slot, and both ships lose their remote repair bonuses.


  • All capital ships with ship maintenance arrays that can carry ships allow for pilots to dock in them as they would a station, albeit still having to follow the same space restrictions. This would, for example, allow 5000 capsules to dock up into a titan's ship maint array. I think it would also be fair to allow that if the ship was destroyed, the ships within it didn't get destroyed as long as they are active/logged in. There is quite a bit of room for debate on this, and I'd be happy either way.


  • [*] Carriers and dreadnaughts (but not supers) would be allowed in hisec. Capital sized RR and weapons would be disallowed from activation, including fighters. Subcap drones, however, would be allowed on carriers.
    Shaklu
    Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
    Ocularis Inferno
    #142 - 2015-03-28 04:20:16 UTC
    Modes would be sweet if they had animation. I can imagine some pretty fun stuff with the Aeon.
    Anhenka
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #143 - 2015-03-28 05:05:40 UTC
    Shaklu wrote:
    Modes would be sweet if they had animation. I can imagine some pretty fun stuff with the Aeon.


    The only animation I want to see on the Aeon is a fusion dance that results in a complete Aeon.

    Or Voltron.
    Catherine Laartii
    Doomheim
    #144 - 2015-03-28 08:54:44 UTC
    Anhenka wrote:
    Shaklu wrote:
    Modes would be sweet if they had animation. I can imagine some pretty fun stuff with the Aeon.


    The only animation I want to see on the Aeon is a fusion dance that results in a complete Aeon.

    Or Voltron.

    I thought it was funny how when they did the apoc remodel they were saying that it finally had been 'finished' after 10 years.

    Did they forget the Aeon was a thing?
    Shaklu
    Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
    Ocularis Inferno
    #145 - 2015-03-28 09:58:49 UTC
    Anhenka wrote:
    Shaklu wrote:
    Modes would be sweet if they had animation. I can imagine some pretty fun stuff with the Aeon.


    The only animation I want to see on the Aeon is a fusion dance that results in a complete Aeon.

    Or Voltron.

    Would't that just make it look like a huge floating suppository?

    A.. Super Suppository?
    Olivias Lahoe
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #146 - 2015-03-28 12:13:30 UTC
    Capital ships in high sec is a wonderful idea because that would include Rorquals.

    Your not exactly gonna say all capital warships but no industrial ones, right?

    Hehe.
    Catherine Laartii
    Doomheim
    #147 - 2015-03-28 16:39:41 UTC
    Olivias Lahoe wrote:
    Capital ships in high sec is a wonderful idea because that would include Rorquals.

    Your not exactly gonna say all capital warships but no industrial ones, right?

    Hehe.

    Idk I don't do heavy industry much, so I don't know the balance elements involved in the rorq. If there are some combat-related reasons why it'd be a bad idea I suppose those might need to be looked at if it was given the green light to go into hisec.
    Galphii
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #148 - 2015-03-28 22:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
    An important aspect to consider when revising all capitals is that supercarriers and dreadnaughts currently have the same role - anti-capital and anti-structure. The difference is one is extremely vulnerable while performing this role an the other is almost invulnerable. If this tiericide initiative is to balance them out, one of these ships needs to switch roles. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a mobile station role for supercarriers, effectively reverting them back to the old 'mothership' role (but a lot better, I would assume). That's certainly one way of dealing with the problem, and I love the idea of a supercapital becoming a mobile station, which makes sense in the upcoming dynamic, mobility-based sov.

    As to the thought that fighters currently suck against subcaps, well, that's kind of the point. Reduce or remove the ability for carriers to use regular drones and they will need escorts - just like capital ships should.

    "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

    Arya Regnar
    Darwins Right Hand
    #149 - 2015-03-28 23:08:31 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Hey All,

    Awesome discussion so far. We're keeping a close eye on this thread (and others like it).

    Moar Words Please.

    CCP Larrikin be lurrkin Blink

    EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

    Dr Cedric
    Independent Miners Corporation
    Care Factor
    #150 - 2015-03-28 23:22:18 UTC
    What I don't like:

    1. Supers/Titans have become a single player investment rather than a corporate/allied force multiplier. I don't know what to do about it, as there is no way to remove them from the game and make everyone start over, but I still don't like it.

    2. I don't like that the (2nd) most powerful class of ships the game (carriers/dreads) can be immobilized by a single, lucky pilot with a warp disruptor. Granted, a Carrier -vs- frigate one on one should not be the norm, but still, why can't a capital ship have some sort of e-war/scram resistance built into the hull? For that matter, why aren't there multi-sized warp disruptors/scramblers? I also don't like that there is not a specific disruption module to stop JUMPING by my capital ship. I can warp or I can jump. Two different things, but apparently susceptible to the same disruption.

    3. I don't like that it takes forever and a day to lock a target. See point above, biggest/best ships... why are my sensors so crappy?

    4. I don't like that my CARRIER is a glorified drone boat. I want it to CARRY stuff, like other ships and be an actual staging area for my fleet rather than (potentially) one of the DPS boats.

    5. I don't like that Fighters cost as much as cruisers, but are the size of a frigates. I don't like that they are considered drones in the game, but in the lore they are piloted small, fast attack ships. I also don't like that they have infinite ammo/capacitor. I also don't like that they sit in the same bay as my drones.

    6. I don't like that Dreadnaughts only have 3 hardpoints for turrets/launchers. If CCP wants to keep the DPS the same, do some maths, but come on, give them a few more guns to shoot.

    7. I don't like that Caldari does not have a Rail-Naught.

    8. I don't like that Carriers have like 5 roles and Dreads have one.

    9. I don't like that my Chimera is only about twice as long as my Rokh. Make the scale bigger, like WAY bigger.



    What I like about Capitals:

    1. I like that they have steep build and skill requirements

    2. I like the look of every carrier, dread, super and titan in the game

    3. I like that they have a unique style of movement (jumping) that only a few ships in the game use.

    4. I like that Titans have Uber-Weapons, and Supers/Carriers have a special "drone" that no other ship can use.

    5. I like that Dreads and Carriers have siege/triage modules that give them a unique/special ability

    6. I like the idea of Titans being a mobile base


    What I think should change:

    1. I think Titans need to be actual, literal mobile bases. They should have docking services for a limited number of sub-capital ships with a fitting service and repair service. I think they should have a "deploy" siege button along the lines of dreads/Carriers to facilitate this. The pilots docked should have access to a corp/alliance locker to fit/store stuff.

    2. I think intra-system jumping should be allowed using cynos. I think inter-system jumping should be allowed using stars, planets or stationary cyno beacons (new structures) that are within range. I think there should be only 5% normal fatigue for in-system jumps, but the same jump cool-down timer

    3. I think Carriers should only be able to fly Fighters, and supercarriers fighters and FBs. I think volume of fighters and FBs should be halved. I think FB's should actually work like bombers: they launch from Super, target lock, launch an actual bomb then return to FB bay ready to be reloaded. I think Fighters should need maintenance (regular repairs from heat/ammo usage) and a maximum flight time associated with their level of maintenance.


    In the Sov 5 thought process, capitals are no longer necessary to take/hold sov. So what should their strategic value be? They should act as force multipliers for those using them. Their use should be tied to the movement/strategy of a fleet.

    A carrier should bring the ships necessary to win the fight to the field and the logistics necessary to survive for the next fight. They should offer support in the form of Fighters to others bringing DPS, but not be able to apply it themselves (this would mean bring the delegate fighters function back). I think they should be able to launch fighters at the same time as offering logistics, but require high-slot dedication to choose what they do. Carriers in and of themselves should be able to do nothing damage wise to any other ship. Even 100 Carriers should just be able to sit there spider tanking and waiting for the rest of the fleet to show.

    Dreadnaughts should be capital killing machines and also electronics beasts that can ewar/dampen/web/whatever the enemy sub-fleet, but be unable to easily apply damage to them. (Think uber non-cloaky recon monsters). Their DPS should apply only to other caps, but their benefit should be felt in "non-capital" engagements.

    Supers should be the real AOE ship, via use of FB's and require "painting" of bomb targets via sub-capital support. Similar to Carriers, they should be unable to independently deliver damage.

    Titans should be actual mobile bases for the sake of making logistics easier during long "wars." See point above regarding titans. Their Doomsday weapon should require sub-cap "painting" of the target (similar to Supers above). When in their "deployed" mode (allowing docking, etc...) they should be invuln to anything other than dreadnaught fire. When not "deployed" they should act as they currently do now, with the addition of the painting requirement.

    Cedric

    Dr Cedric
    Independent Miners Corporation
    Care Factor
    #151 - 2015-03-28 23:27:16 UTC
    Continued from post above

    Each of these Capitals should have a specific module that "deploys" them into their respective roles.

    For Carriers, when deployed they can do logistics and assign fighters, when not deployed they can serve (perhaps with titans and bridges) as a ship moving/movement facilitator

    For Dreads, when deployed they can mount E-war to the max, OR deliver Titan/capital Damaging shots. Weapons for attacking Titans should be different than regular guns and should offer no damage to other capitals.

    For Supers, when deployed they should be able to launch and assign fighters, deploy FB's and attack painted targets. When not deployed they should serve as a secondary logistics role

    For Titans, when deployed they should act as a mobile base, with docking, fitting and repair services (each of these should have a timer to avoid the new station-game) as well as a time-limited force field. When not deployed, they can activate their Doomsday weapon. In either mode they should be able to bridge.

    Cedric

    Mournful Conciousness
    Embers Children
    TOHA Conglomerate
    #152 - 2015-03-29 08:32:36 UTC
    I would like to see ships docking inside a carrier (while the pilots remain in them) so that the carrier can then cyno-jump to a system and deploy a small fleet from within itself, while supporting that fleet with logistics, supplies and some (turret-based) defences.

    Supercarriers the same (on a larger scale).

    The jump bridge capability of titans could then be deprecated and a more interesting on-grid role could be imagined for these.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

    The Hamilton
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #153 - 2015-03-29 09:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: The Hamilton
    I've enjoyed the mental exercise of coming up with ways to balance and bring Capitals and above into a strong and enjoyable place. I feel that the pheobe changes need another pass to do this.

    Personally an ideal system would encourage groups to spread their might throughout a constellation. One super or a small group of caps to support the subcap-entosis pilots and the other subcaps to support the super/caps. Perhaps this isn't anywhere close to the design goals of ccp and doesn't really sound like their kind of goal anyway.

    I would love to hear what goals CCP are considering to concentrate caps and supers to achieving.

    If you consider how modern carriers are used the idea of assigning fighters makes a lot of sense, but sitting stationary in harbour does not (see skynet). To this end players are being sold a lie in the name of the ship class. To require the ship to be on grid the original name "mothership" makes a lot more sense.

    Most of all I feel there is great opportunity in breaking down the need to pile onto one grid with all the capital and super ships possible. Returning to fighter assist and off grid doomsday weapons has potential to this end but were removed due to rapid change being made in order to balance other parts of the game. So while a whole revamp is being considered for these ships I think a return to these concepts but creating them anew with limits to keep the ships vulnerable and powerful should be considered. You should feel hunted and be trying to stay away from even being caught in these while also directing fighters and fighter bombers to do your bidding. Hiding signature in asteroids, or by turning systems offline could be considered with a revision of d-scan possibly due to the new observation outpost. Tracking where fighters return to becoming useful.

    As for the titans I honestly feel like a titan should feel more like a deathstar and one shot a vulnerable station when they become destructible. Putting one on field resulting in a sure death of either the titan or the station. Other aspects could of course be considered for the titan to make it more than a very niche role. But a truly terrifying power with a true risk of it being destroyed would make these devastating ships have the awe they deserve.

    How much legacy code is going to limit the balance of these ships is beyond me and perhaps Manfred is on the right course with current implementations being considered such as modes. Nevertheless I'd like to see CCP try their best to reach far with this. It's been a while since I feel they truly reached for anything amazing. Now would be a good time to do some serious prototyping with blank slates.

    If I had to give them a balance pass with current mechanics and features, I'd propose that they have drastically reduced lock time to help them participate in destroying the many subcaps that will surely be vulnerable with entosis links running. Also a massive reduction in the ability to tank XL guns, letting Dreads be the force to reduce the capital / super blob and using carriers and supers as effective entosis killers with their fighters. This would also come with a reduction for Dreads to shoot subcaps, making them otherwise useless in a subcap fight. And titans... :/ well the ideas to use it as a mobile base seem quite good, but I'm not honestly sure that is what a titan pilot wants, might be wrong though.

    I'd also like to state I'm in favor of using capitals and supers as better fleet movers to allow attackers to maneuver about a constellation as easily as the defenders with their jump bridges.
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #154 - 2015-03-29 09:41:52 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    I would like to see ships docking inside a carrier (while the pilots remain in them) so that the carrier can then cyno-jump to a system and deploy a small fleet from within itself, while supporting that fleet with logistics, supplies and some (turret-based) defences.

    Supercarriers the same (on a larger scale).

    The jump bridge capability of titans could then be deprecated and a more interesting on-grid role could be imagined for these.



    CCP has stated repeatedly that the code will not allow for this(its what was originaly intended but they have never found a way to get it to work)
    Mournful Conciousness
    Embers Children
    TOHA Conglomerate
    #155 - 2015-03-29 11:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    I would like to see ships docking inside a carrier (while the pilots remain in them) so that the carrier can then cyno-jump to a system and deploy a small fleet from within itself, while supporting that fleet with logistics, supplies and some (turret-based) defences.

    Supercarriers the same (on a larger scale).

    The jump bridge capability of titans could then be deprecated and a more interesting on-grid role could be imagined for these.



    CCP has stated repeatedly that the code will not allow for this(its what was originaly intended but they have never found a way to get it to work)


    EDIT: reworded in the hope that the EVE Creative Director reads it:

    The first part of this discussion should be: "do we want to do it?". I would suggest that, "yes, we do".

    Having established that, the next question is "how?". Clearly it's not impossible, just perhaps a challenge.

    Well, the first thing to do would be to understand the existing code and data flows, then build a refactoring and migration plan so that any missing underlying functionality can be added without impacting the existing game, followed by the implementation of the extra client 'states' (such as - I am now inside that other ship, so update my client accordingly).

    None of this is difficult - it simply requires the will followed by the execution.

    If we ask CCP for this and tell them that it will really improve the game, and then the CSM push for it - perhaps we'll get it? Wouldn't that be better than simply accepting a whitewash answer?

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

    Jennifer Maxwell
    Crimson Serpent Syndicate
    #156 - 2015-03-29 13:48:22 UTC
    I'll just say this: If you make it too risky for carriers to use their fighters and apply dps, then nobody is going to do it. No matter how "ballanced" the change might look or how good the idea sounds, if you make it so that a carrier has to stay put for x amount of time in the middle of nowhere, somewhere it can be probed down by a Cheetah and dropped on in under 30 seconds, then it's flat out not going to be worth it to use them in that capacity. Why should I use this cool fighter mechanic when I can just sit off gate in my Isthar, let my friend do the insta pointing, and just blap things with sentry drones and be about 10X safer and just sacrificing a bit of dps? Or do it even cheaper and use a Nado or a Naga?

    Why would anyone be willing to put their carrier at risk when they can get whereabouts the same effect but spend a lot less money and be a lot safer? Whether it's assigned fighters, or it's a instablap nado, you're going to die when you jump the gate anyways.
    Aiyshimin
    Descendant Command
    #157 - 2015-03-29 13:51:03 UTC
    What about normal stacking penalty for capital RR? This mostly concerns slowcats, and wouldn't hurt typical triage support use at all.

    Supercap issue mostly concerns their isk value, leading to purely risk averse usage.
    NovemberMike
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #158 - 2015-03-30 01:04:34 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    I would like to see ships docking inside a carrier (while the pilots remain in them) so that the carrier can then cyno-jump to a system and deploy a small fleet from within itself, while supporting that fleet with logistics, supplies and some (turret-based) defences.

    Supercarriers the same (on a larger scale).

    The jump bridge capability of titans could then be deprecated and a more interesting on-grid role could be imagined for these.



    CCP has stated repeatedly that the code will not allow for this(its what was originaly intended but they have never found a way to get it to work)


    Even if the implementation doesn't work you could easily get the same concept going. Get rid of the jump bridge that titans have and give carriers the ability to bore wormholes to a target. The carrier starts at point A, bores to a cyno at point B and leaves behind a wormhole that can allow a certain tonnage of ships to pass through. It ends up behaving similarly to the titan except that instead of pushing ships through you pull ships behind you, and it forces the carrier to commit to at least a certain degree.

    Then you can rebalance Titans as something else. My vote would be to make them mobile superweapons that take out player owned stations (like the deathstar). Give their superweapon a hefty charge-up time (30 minutes or more) and allow them to target structures from several AU away. Then take away Dreadnaught's ability to take out stations and make them the premier capital hunters.

    The big thing about capitals though is that they need a reason for people to risk them. Right now Titans bridge safely and there is little reason to commit the other caps to even fights.
    Lienzo
    Amanuensis
    #159 - 2015-03-30 03:40:59 UTC
    NovemberMike wrote:


    Even if the implementation doesn't work you could easily get the same concept going. Get rid of the jump bridge that titans have and give carriers the ability to bore wormholes to a target. The carrier starts at point A, bores to a cyno at point B and leaves behind a wormhole that can allow a certain tonnage of ships to pass through. It ends up behaving similarly to the titan except that instead of pushing ships through you pull ships behind you, and it forces the carrier to commit to at least a certain degree.

    Then you can rebalance Titans as something else. My vote would be to make them mobile superweapons that take out player owned stations (like the deathstar). Give their superweapon a hefty charge-up time (30 minutes or more) and allow them to target structures from several AU away. Then take away Dreadnaught's ability to take out stations and make them the premier capital hunters.

    The big thing about capitals though is that they need a reason for people to risk them. Right now Titans bridge safely and there is little reason to commit the other caps to even fights.


    I like the idea of capitals hurling wormholes across the battlefield. That could be the greatest anti-blob weapon ever.

    "FC, Epsilon Wing is now in Amamake along with hostile tackle!"

    "Copy that, execute order FRIENDBALL till you all escape the hostile natives and get safely back to null."


    On a more sober note, I recall CCP making squeaky noises about different fleet warp formations back in the day. We should go poke them and see what's up.

    WarFireV
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #160 - 2015-03-30 06:42:27 UTC
    My own two cents on this whole thing, I don't believe most people realize how much the new sov changes screw over capitals.

    I mean the dread, the poor dread. It will be the worst capital. I mean you can kind of use it to shoot battleships and it can be used in some masochistic way to kill other capitals, while pretending you are being "isk efficient." Carriers will be in a pretty fair spot after the changes. You can out range them or force them into a bad fit with the new way you have to conduct sov with the e-link. Super carriers will be there, just sort of ya know, waiting for capitals to drop on that no one has to use anymore.

    Either way most of the people in this thread are just posting ideas about nerf capitals without actually thinking of how they will interact with the new state of sov.

    As for my own ideas? To me capitals are the artillery of EvE. They should have dramatic impact on the battlefield at the expense of mobility. These whole ideas about "lets make a capital a mobile starbase or a giant links ship." Well they're cute ideas, but they're massively unfun to the people who actually has to use them. Now to get more specific:

    Carriers: With the new sov changes they are mostly fine as is. Slow moving, while having a good impact on the battlefield, but there overall impacted is curtailed since they can't actually interact with the new sov system. Manny's mode idea is still a good one though, not trying to say something like that wouldn't be pretty neat to see implemented.

    Dreadnaughts: Oh dreads Sad. Their primary function is going to be phased out. They do have two fall back functions that will need to be amplified, the ability to kill other capitals and the ability to kill subcap. I purpose that they are given two different siege types. One more suited for attacking capitals the other more suited for attack subcaps. It would also be a good idea to lower their manufacturing cost.

    Super Carriers: They where actually pretty well rounded after all the nerfs they suffered. The biggest problem they faced was not with their stats, but there ability to drop on any capital fleet anywhere in EvE in less then 10 minutes. That problem has been fixed already.

    Titans: ughggg........ I don't know. Maybe their gang link ability should actually be better then a T3 first off.