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Stealth Orca nerf round #2
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Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#61 - 2011-12-05 16:44:53 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Durzel wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
The bear picked the fight, by shooting first. The Orca merely turns the tables on a Carebear that tried to prey on a 'weak' frigate. Don't want to die? Don't shoot at the Vigil.

Playing Devils Advocate they picked a fight with a Vigil, not a Cane. Would they have shot a Cane if it had been there ninja-looting in the first place? Probably not, which is of course why you/ninjas use Vigils in the first place, to invite aggression.

CCP haven't really set a precedent with this to be honest - they have been continually nerfing scamming as well with changes to the UI... Adding a textual description of an amount in a contract, removing freeform contracts completely, showing where the contract route goes, warning them that they might not be able to dock there, etc. This Orca change is not the paradigm shift you might think it is.

The problem here, if you're prepared to stand back and look at it objectively, is that if you choose to retaliate to a Vigil stealing your stuff it's not unreasonable to expect that this is what you are going to be fighting. Being able to switch into something much more threatening may well be emergent gameplay from your point of view but it runs counter to "expected behaviour" from the carebears perspective. Again CCP fixing this sort of thing is nothing new, they fixed the lofty trick, they removed cascading GCCs, they even recently went one step further and removed automatic cascading aggression upon stealing.

At the end of the day you've still got "proper" methods like social engineering and corp infiltration to rid carebears of their ships. You should assume from numerous other examples that CCP are not happy with deceptions via the UI or unintended or undocumented game mechanics and will continue to remove them, for the betterment of whoever it affects (which let's be honest is always likely to be people who don't want to fight)

Just my 2p.


Can't really reply due to time constraints, but appreciate the well thought out reply.
Still, I'd say, technically, they are engaging 'you', who happen to be flying in a Vigil, flags follow the person, not the ship.

So I don't think it is a reasonable expectation that -

Just because you engage a Vigil, you are guaranteed to only be fighting a Vigil. You are fighting the pilot.

Forcing players to disengage, dockup in order to switch ships - is kind of weaksauce when the whole point of the Orca having an SM bay in the first place is for in-space fitting and ship swapping. Seems like CCP simply wants to give PVE player every opportunity possible to escape, even AFTER they initiate the fight.

I read this nerf as, 'Orca switching ships is OK' as long as you are using it for Carebear pursuits. Ninjas, need not apply.



For what it's worth I agree and sympathise with you.

Someone shooting anything small & PvP fit in a lumbering PVE fit battleship is asking to lose it. It's arguable that a L4 mission fit CNR would struggle to kill something so small anyway if it was fit specifically to speed tank them. You could add neutral logistics into the mix and keep a much smaller ship up against a battleship anyway.

There is also the fact that there are (or has been - haven't tested since Crucible hit) ways of extending aggro well past the point that a carebear thinks they are safe. I've heard apocryphal tales of aggro being extended by hours, and I know of ways of doing it myself, and given how buggy aggro timers are anyway I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if bears undock with no clue at all that someone has aggro on them.

Since that still exists in the game I don't really see the pressing need to nerf this Orca trick, but I can somewhat understand why CCP did in the context of how aggressively they have been pacifying the majority anyway (e.g. Incursions led to cascading GCC and cascading logistics theft aggro being fixed very quickly). C'est la vie I guess.
Admiral Yamamoto
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2011-12-05 17:34:29 UTC
2 things.
First, you can still warp your orca in, jet the ship, then right-click board it. You'll lose your awesome vigil, but who cares? No session change timer, and if the bear is able to lock it before you board it, try harder next time and gg.

Second, you cant even board a ship that is locked, so why would it seem feasible that you can stroll up to it and scoop it into your sma?
Woo Glin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2011-12-05 17:49:12 UTC
There are plenty of PvP oppurtunities outside of your NPC corp. I'd try branching out, you never know what you might find!
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#64 - 2011-12-05 19:25:10 UTC
Beliar Gray wrote:
...Sad though, we ninjas trained our orcas for 6 months or so and now they are useless.


You can do mining ops. Smile
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#65 - 2011-12-05 19:39:32 UTC
Swordfingers wrote:
Beliar Gray wrote:
...Sad though, we ninjas trained our orcas for 6 months or so and now they are useless.


You can do mining ops. Smile


When you know something is overpowered or cheap as hell then you should know better than to get butthurt when it eventually gets rebalanced.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Gung Ye
Doomheim
#66 - 2011-12-05 20:02:25 UTC
Quote:
Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336
Marchland
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-12-05 20:03:10 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Swordfingers wrote:
Beliar Gray wrote:
...Sad though, we ninjas trained our orcas for 6 months or so and now they are useless.


You can do mining ops. Smile


When you know something is overpowered or cheap as hell then you should know better than to get butthurt when it eventually gets rebalanced.


While the change itself is aggravating, the underhanded sneaky f-ing way CCP brought out the change (that is, by never mentioning it) is the icing on the cake.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2011-12-05 20:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maggeridon Thoraz
well consequence will be you have your orca alt into same corp like you and he will do the ninja looting now while your main is wating to take over once carebear shot your alt. but the skilling for orca has somehow become useless.
Pandorath
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2011-12-05 20:26:05 UTC
It's disgusting to see how those hipster bears whiteknight every forum thread with their puny moral prejudices...
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#70 - 2011-12-05 21:04:58 UTC
Marchland wrote:
Lady Spank wrote:
Swordfingers wrote:
Beliar Gray wrote:
...Sad though, we ninjas trained our orcas for 6 months or so and now they are useless.


You can do mining ops. Smile


When you know something is overpowered or cheap as hell then you should know better than to get butthurt when it eventually gets rebalanced.


While the change itself is aggravating, the underhanded sneaky f-ing way CCP brought out the change (that is, by never mentioning it) is the icing on the cake.


Someone had to take it up their rear-end. This time, it are the gankers.
Marchland
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2011-12-06 07:20:31 UTC
Swordfingers wrote:
Marchland wrote:
Lady Spank wrote:
Swordfingers wrote:
Beliar Gray wrote:
...Sad though, we ninjas trained our orcas for 6 months or so and now they are useless.


You can do mining ops. Smile


When you know something is overpowered or cheap as hell then you should know better than to get butthurt when it eventually gets rebalanced.


While the change itself is aggravating, the underhanded sneaky f-ing way CCP brought out the change (that is, by never mentioning it) is the icing on the cake.


Someone had to take it up their rear-end. This time, it are the gankers.


/End thread Roll

We'll adapt Pirate it was just shady on CCP's part.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2011-12-06 08:26:51 UTC
Marchland wrote:
You can't do it in high sec, which you could before.
So how does that differ from the SMA on a carrier? You're missing a crucial part in your tests if you want to demonstrate that there's something odd going on.

BuzzyBeagle wrote:
i lulled hard at this misinformed Bear that is so fluffy in her down-pillow covered computer chair she cannot see past her rose colored glasses to see whats going on in the real world.

I approve and note character name as a perfect target of opportunity.

Don't be so hard on Pandorath — it's a common mistake for people to make if they don't understand how EVE works. The classification of “griefing” in EVE differs so much from pretty much every other game that it throws a lot of people, and then they get confused about what is allowed and what isn't. At the end of the day, though, griefing isn't allowed in EVE, just like in pretty much all other games, and engaging in it will get you banned.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2011-12-06 09:48:52 UTC
Pandorath wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pandorath wrote:
Griefing in eve is allowed and is not bannable.
Incorrect on both accounts. Your problem is that you have brought some irrelevant notion of “griefing” in from some other silly game that has nothing to do with EVE.

So, indeed, L2EVE: it's not what you think it is. Griefing gets you banned around here.


Ninja salvaging, bumping, suicide ganking, awoxing, reverse awoxing, infiltration, stealing, pirating, scamming, wardecking for ransom, ransoming ships and not honoring it... I thought this was related to the word griefing no?

"A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game that deliberately irritates and harasses other players." -wiki

...White knights are the most sick people in EvE.

only few more years and you will finish the school... and you will forget griefing.... maybe.... Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#74 - 2011-12-06 09:59:30 UTC
Now I have seen it all. Ninjas crying about underhandedness.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-12-06 10:20:38 UTC
Is this new nerf like how Orca owners used to sit out a Hulk, move minerals into an Orca they left in belt unattended by targeting it, and you couldn't jump in the Orca to steal it because they kept it targeted? Now you can't scoop an unattended ship into the orca because its targeted? Just seems like a silly fix, even though if it ruins griefing (+1 Lol) such as before you couldn't swap out your jailbait Vigil to a Hurricane after aggressing so you guys found a way around it.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2011-12-06 11:14:24 UTC
Pandorath wrote:
It's disgusting to see how those hipster bears whiteknight every forum thread with their puny moral prejudices...

"griefer" tears are delicious

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-12-06 11:29:48 UTC
Marchland wrote:
While the change itself is aggravating, the underhanded sneaky f-ing way CCP brought out the change (that is, by never mentioning it) is the icing on the cake.


sneaky underhandness?? in MY EVE?? why i NEVER!
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#78 - 2011-12-06 11:43:43 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Marchland wrote:
While the change itself is aggravating, the underhanded sneaky f-ing way CCP brought out the change (that is, by never mentioning it) is the icing on the cake.


sneaky underhandness?? in MY EVE?? why i NEVER!


CCP just took a leaf from Ninjas in doing this amirite.

In truth, if you had your ear to the wire you would have known this was coming.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#79 - 2011-12-06 12:03:23 UTC
Ear to the wire, huh?

Hmm....

1. Concord boosts, and only boosts, never the other way + increased penalties.
2. Noctis, crushing salvager profits (simply by making it so easy the market is flooded)
3. LVL 4 loot nerf, crushes the rest of it - (while leaving 'unstealable' bounties untouched...)
4. Orca Nerf #1 & #2
5. Wardec rule reversal + POS dismantling times reduced 100-fold
6. Insurance removal, but only for gankers
7. Multiple changes to RR, on behalf of Incursion runners.
8. Persistent Wreck-baiting nerf.

And thats just off the top of my head.
If it gets Carebears killed, or even just makes them unhappy, look out, nerf inbound.

More like CCP is pounding on a railroad track with a sledgehammer - you can hear it for miles.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2011-12-06 12:34:13 UTC
Just have to Orca take the aggro from the ship it scoops. The runner will see the Orca flash on oversight and know more stuff is up. This way low sec doesn't function differently from high sec.