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Most overpowered module in the game
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
#41 - 2011-12-03 21:02:36 UTC
ECM is really good against a solo player but really bad against almost anything bigger. Always makes me wonder what kind of people are defending it.

A good option to rebalance ecm would be to rework it into an anti-logistics weapon (disrupt transfers or slow them down) and rebalancing ecm ships around it. This way ECM could be used in all sizes of warfare plus it would nerf mass logistics a bit. Gangs would have to think how much logistics and anti-logistics to bring.
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-12-03 21:18:04 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Asuka Smith wrote:
The problem with ecm drones is that they didn't feel the recall->relaunch nerf. When your ecm drone misses a cycle simply recall it and launch it again and it'll immediately attempt abother jam cycle. This is why lights seem to punch above their weight and ecm drones all seem op. Fix that and they'll suck. It'll be a stealth nerf to gallente though because outside of the hurricane it's mostly gallente who fight close enough to use that trick.


ECM drones jam at the end of their cycle, not hte beginning.

I don't know who started this rumor, but it is wrong
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2011-12-03 21:26:32 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

I don't know who started this rumor, but it is wrong


Would you accept Fraps as proof?
Skinae
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2011-12-03 21:57:11 UTC
The Hurricane hull.

Bonafide Film House a Bozeman Video Production Company and Montana Wedding Video Company
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-12-03 22:53:39 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

I don't know who started this rumor, but it is wrong


Would you accept Fraps as proof?

Likewise. I, of course, tested this on Sisi before making my statement. Did you?
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#46 - 2011-12-03 23:15:12 UTC
Dibsi Dei wrote:
ECM is really good against a solo player but really bad against almost anything bigger. Always makes me wonder what kind of people are defending it.

A good option to rebalance ecm would be to rework it into an anti-logistics weapon (disrupt transfers or slow them down) and rebalancing ecm ships around it. This way ECM could be used in all sizes of warfare plus it would nerf mass logistics a bit. Gangs would have to think how much logistics and anti-logistics to bring.




This may be the best idea I have ever heard!

I love it. Make ECM an anti logistics weapon. It would actually make ECM dedicated ships more effective and desireable, all while not completely dominating a small gang fight with 1 ship or 1 flight of drones.

Make force mulitpliers counter force multipliers! I love it, great idea!

CCP pls make this happen!
Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#47 - 2011-12-03 23:31:05 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
I use to be against ECM drones (hated them, because they're worse than falcons). Then I started using them. So, now I'm just against ecm drones being used against me. Kinda like my thoughts on logistics, neutraliser's, tracking disruptor's Falcons and Ecm in general.

Also, I'm against solo pilots using alternative characters in engagements and calling it solo.With that said. I've used alternative characters. Ever since I started playing this game. Maybe not solo, which it's not, but for moving ships trading and whatever else I could not do because I had very low security status. I have used characters to scout before, provide gang-links and logistics. BUT!

In my opinion. Using T3 ships with gang-links is as lame as using falcons, and scouting alternative characters while claiming to be solo.

In this game full of fa@660ts! Who use ships and modules in annoying ways. Why are something's considered ok (alt in t3 gang-links) and others lame (falcon alt)? Those who lack skill. Tend to find ways to make up for it. Be it alternative characters that use ecm, logistics, or gang-links. Fleets that use logistics, falcons and rely on them. Believing themselves good because of it. Stop complaining.

I lose ships because of myriad of things. I get angry sometimes and I rage. I get over it and move on. I wish I could ask A GOD (CCP) in real life to change all the things that are unfair. Certain things most would consider imbalanced or immoral. You know, stupid sh!t. Deal with it.

How many more things are people going to complain about being overpowered? Seems that any ship, module or ammo used in game by the majority of pilots is considered overpowered.


-proxyyyy



you just said a whole lot. none of which touched on the subject of this post, which is balance. i think the main issue with ecm is lack of balance. the only counter to ecm is eccm which is horribly imbalanced. i think most agree in the realm of ecm is one of the few things that is technically "overpowered" and some balancing is in order.



Bramble Rose
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-12-04 01:41:19 UTC
mama guru wrote:

IMO they should change so that the ECM drones reduce the targets sensor strength instead of jamming it. .


like the Hammerhead SD-600 ?
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#49 - 2011-12-04 08:50:05 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Dibsi Dei wrote:
ECM is really good against a solo player but really bad against almost anything bigger. Always makes me wonder what kind of people are defending it.

A good option to rebalance ecm would be to rework it into an anti-logistics weapon (disrupt transfers or slow them down) and rebalancing ecm ships around it. This way ECM could be used in all sizes of warfare plus it would nerf mass logistics a bit. Gangs would have to think how much logistics and anti-logistics to bring.




This may be the best idea I have ever heard!

I love it. Make ECM an anti logistics weapon. It would actually make ECM dedicated ships more effective and desireable, all while not completely dominating a small gang fight with 1 ship or 1 flight of drones.

Make force mulitpliers counter force multipliers! I love it, great idea!

CCP pls make this happen!



Of course you would also restrict other races to only being able to use their modules against logistics ships to balance this right? Right!

It's a great idea! I mean why would anyone want to apply long range neuts, scramblers, webs, painters or damps on anything other than a logi ship. Not sure how they should change tracking disrupters to fit this new ideology, but I am sure you have thought this all through.Roll




Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Korin Corax
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-12-04 18:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Korin Corax
Don't know if it would be possible from a programming PoV, but what about making multiple ECM drones add jam strength to the drone "group"?

Example:

1x EC-300 = 0.75 jam strength.

2x EC-300= 1.5 jam strength.

...and so on. All the drones would need to be in a group (launched from a single ship) and attacking the same target (using the "focus fire" command in the drone menu). Drones from other ships would act as their own group and not add to the jam strength.

In this way a group of 5 ec-300's will have a single jam chance per cycle with a jam strength of 3.75. Essentially adding a single racial jammer to your arsenal. (slightly stronger than a base T2 at these strengths, but numbers were for illustration purposes only. Tweaking for balance would be required).
They would still be usable, but as all the drones act together in a single cycle rather than running their own cycles, the jam chance is (hopefully) brought down to a reasonable level.

Similar mechanics could possibly be used to make other E-war drones usable?
Jacob Stov
#51 - 2011-12-04 18:54:24 UTC
If ECM would just break the lock instead of keeping someone jammed for the complete cycle small ships (with low sensor strength, but good scanres) would be able to relock, before the next cycle breaks their lock again.

Would as a sideeffekt boost dampeners attractivity.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#52 - 2011-12-04 19:11:29 UTC
ECM drones in their current form are simply indefensible.

The simplest gauge of game balance is variety in practice. The very fact that ECM drones are so popular is a pretty clear sign that they are overpowered compared to other EWar drones, and even damage drones. Most FCs demand that anything with a drone bay bring at least one flight of ECM.

The ultimate insult is that drone skills barely affect them. Once their low skill requirements are reached, the effectiveness of EWar drones (which may as well just mean ECM) is unaffected by drone skills. The EWar drone skill counter intuitively only affects drone control range, and Drone Interfacing makes no difference whatsoever. Because EWar drones are no more effective in the hands of a drone specialist than they are any other pilot, it's just another reason for every scrub and their mother to use EC-300s and 600s.

ECM as a mechanic probably needs to be looked at again by CCP. But assuming current mechanics, here's what I think should happen with ECM drones:

- ECM drones should get a stacking penalty, like other EWar drones.
- EC-300s should only break locks, like lockbreaker bombs and ECM burst. EC-600s should have a 10s jam time, and EC-900s should be able to jam for the full 20s.
- The EWar drones skill should actually influence the effectiveness of EWar drones, instead of drone control range. A new skill should be introduced for drone control range.
- Introduce T2 versions of all EWar and Combat Utility drones, requiring EWar Drones V, the racial drone specialisation to IV, and the same requirements as the T2 module equivalent of each EWar type.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#53 - 2011-12-04 19:14:07 UTC
Jacob Stov wrote:
If ECM would just break the lock instead of keeping someone jammed for the complete cycle small ships (with low sensor strength, but good scanres) would be able to relock, before the next cycle breaks their lock again.

Would as a sideeffekt boost dampeners attractivity.

Problem with that solution is that ECM boats would die to all high-dps frigates .. takes less than a second to lock an LSE cruiser with most frigs so he'd have to be aligned and warp the second the jam hits --> Unnecessary nerf to ECM boats.
Plus it makes ECM largely ineffective as a counter SeBo fits, or in other words we would see ECCM replaced by SeBo's across the board as they have utility beyond countering ECM.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#54 - 2011-12-04 19:24:54 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Jacob Stov wrote:
If ECM would just break the lock instead of keeping someone jammed for the complete cycle small ships (with low sensor strength, but good scanres) would be able to relock, before the next cycle breaks their lock again.

Would as a sideeffekt boost dampeners attractivity.

Problem with that solution is that ECM boats would die to all high-dps frigates .. takes less than a second to lock an LSE cruiser with most frigs so he'd have to be aligned and warp the second the jam hits --> Unnecessary nerf to ECM boats.
Plus it makes ECM largely ineffective as a counter SeBo fits, or in other words we would see ECCM replaced by SeBo's across the board as they have utility beyond countering ECM.



Never really thought about it like that.

However, lock breaking seems the best course though. It may reduce the usefulness of ecm ships, but range is also a form of defence. Frigates being on grid will make things difficult, but once the ecm ship breaks a frigates lock and is pre-align. Then warp out.

ECCM will be effectively useless if this change was to occur. Sensor boosters would be more useful. Maybe the duration of ecm should be limited to the time a ship takes to lock. So if a battleship takes 5 seconds to lock a falcon. The ecm module will effect the a battleship for 5 seconds. Plus the time it takes the ship to lock a falcon again.

I dunno.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2011-12-04 19:40:51 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Jacob Stov wrote:
If ECM would just break the lock instead of keeping someone jammed for the complete cycle small ships (with low sensor strength, but good scanres) would be able to relock, before the next cycle breaks their lock again.

Would as a sideeffekt boost dampeners attractivity.

Problem with that solution is that ECM boats would die to all high-dps frigates .. takes less than a second to lock an LSE cruiser with most frigs so he'd have to be aligned and warp the second the jam hits --> Unnecessary nerf to ECM boats.
Plus it makes ECM largely ineffective as a counter SeBo fits, or in other words we would see ECCM replaced by SeBo's across the board as they have utility beyond countering ECM.



Never really thought about it like that.

However, lock breaking seems the best course though. It may reduce the usefulness of ecm ships, but range is also a form of defence. Frigates being on grid will make things difficult, but once the ecm ship breaks a frigates lock and is pre-align. Then warp out.

ECCM will be effectively useless if this change was to occur. Sensor boosters would be more useful. Maybe the duration of ecm should be limited to the time a ship takes to lock. So if a battleship takes 5 seconds to lock a falcon. The ecm module will effect the a battleship for 5 seconds. Plus the time it takes the ship to lock a falcon again.

I dunno.


How about sensor strength determining how long a ship is jammed, so a frigate is jammed for a longer duration than a battleship, to compensate for the difference in locking time.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2011-12-05 20:38:32 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

I don't know who started this rumor, but it is wrong


Would you accept Fraps as proof?

Likewise. I, of course, tested this on Sisi before making my statement. Did you?


I did, but apparently it was light ECM drones failing to jam my 7 sensor strength Rifter three times in a row Roll
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-12-05 22:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
FOF rockets? Just a thought.
Silber Zidayn
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-12-06 00:41:03 UTC
At what point do we just move on to.....

~Remove ALLL the things.~


Really? In a 1v1 fight, ECCM > ECM drones. The issue is once you equip ECCM you'll fight a clone ship of yours without ECCM and either more tank or more DPS and you'll have to eventually realize the circular path which you're headed.

ECM NPCs on the other hand.......
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-12-06 00:56:53 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:

I did, but apparently it was light ECM drones failing to jam my 7 sensor strength Rifter three times in a row Roll

Apparently so. Here's that fraps you wanted earlier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaXYSLCTDHU
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2011-12-06 01:03:50 UTC
Damage Control II obviously
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