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Removing Reinforced Mode: Maybe we should?

Author
Captain Phil
Miner's Revenge
#1 - 2015-03-15 18:44:18 UTC
I think we should remove it, but that's because I don't own jack squat anyway. The implications are obvious, but I have a few questions on the matter:


Was there ever a time that structures existed without reinforcement?

Do you think it would be virtually impossible to hold sovereignty or own structures without it?

How would it impact capital construction?

Would major alliances simply shrink, or disappear entirely?


I'm a nobody in EvE, but I feel like reinforcement plays a bigger role in discouraging a POS attack than the POS defenses do.

What place does a 41 hour immunity have in a game where scamming, espionage, awox, and suicide ganks are legitimate?

What right do I have to own something in EvE if I do not have the manpower and TZ coverage needed to protect it?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2015-03-15 18:57:04 UTC
It would be impossible to actually defend any assets.

Especially if you don't have full TZ coverage.

Why would you think that only the biggest groups should even be able to put up a POS?
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#3 - 2015-03-15 19:08:01 UTC
Let's not Big smile
Captain Phil
Miner's Revenge
#4 - 2015-03-15 19:11:02 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
It would be impossible to actually defend any assets.

Especially if you don't have full TZ coverage.

Why would you think that only the biggest groups should even be able to put up a POS?


I'm thinking more along the lines of assets per capita, and simply shrinking the number (which appears to be the goal of sovereignty mechanics changes). The "more" would have more, as usual.

The difference being that rather than adding another layer of mechanics, we simply allow EvE to do what it does best.

Additionally, the goals are ultimately the same:

Quote:
As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid... neither side is making significant progress until the fight is resolved.


If you win the fight, you keep your stuff. Same same.

Quote:
The restrictions and penalties on the Entosis Link should be as simple and understandable as possible.


Deploy or destroy. This is what I consider simple.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2015-03-15 19:11:41 UTC
no major alliances would just get bigger since you would be forced to join them or be unable to hold anything




as far as micro gameplay goes timers cause fights as it gives both sides a time to show up



your idea just makes it so bashes are nothing more than that since the defenders are not going to be able to get a defense up in the 45 min it takes to grind out a tower
Captain Phil
Miner's Revenge
#6 - 2015-03-15 19:13:35 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
no major alliances would just get bigger since you would be forced to join them or be unable to hold anything




as far as micro gameplay goes timers cause fights as it gives both sides a time to show up



your idea just makes it so bashes are nothing more than that since the defenders are not going to be able to get a defense up in the 45 min it takes to grind out a tower


Given our current style of play, you are correct. Player tactics would have to change, yes.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2015-03-15 19:15:17 UTC
And how are you going to win the fight to keep your stuff if you're an EU based alliance and some Australians come kill everything you own at 5 AM?
Captain Phil
Miner's Revenge
#8 - 2015-03-15 19:18:02 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Let's not Big smile


"I woke up Saturday morning and... I have no more things."

I understand. Consider this:

About a year ago I was moving all my things in an Orca. I decided to make a pit stop in Jita. "Burn Jita"? Whatever, I said.


I learned a lot that day. Needless to say, nothing is impossible for the players who put their minds to it.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#9 - 2015-03-15 19:22:38 UTC
Captain Phil wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Let's not Big smile


"I woke up Saturday morning and... I have no more things."

I understand. Consider this:

About a year ago I was moving all my things in an Orca. I decided to make a pit stop in Jita. "Burn Jita"? Whatever, I said.


I learned a lot that day. Needless to say, nothing is impossible for the players who put their minds to it.



You flying stupid is not the same as some one not being able to play 23.5/7
Captain Phil
Miner's Revenge
#10 - 2015-03-15 19:22:55 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
And how are you going to win the fight to keep your stuff if you're an EU based alliance and some Australians come kill everything you own at 5 AM?


Recruit Australians.


Whenever I think about what can and can't be accomplished in EvE, I ask myself "What would GoonSwarm do?"

They would make a plan, and follow through.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2015-03-15 19:54:48 UTC
Captain Phil wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And how are you going to win the fight to keep your stuff if you're an EU based alliance and some Australians come kill everything you own at 5 AM?


Recruit Australians.


Whenever I think about what can and can't be accomplished in EvE, I ask myself "What would GoonSwarm do?"

They would make a plan, and follow through.


Well, we wouldn't propose a mechanic that made it impossible for anyone other than us to hold space for one thing. This would hurt us, yes, but it'd also completely cripple anyone smaller.

Why is that good for the game?
Madd Adda
#12 - 2015-03-15 19:58:04 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Captain Phil wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And how are you going to win the fight to keep your stuff if you're an EU based alliance and some Australians come kill everything you own at 5 AM?


Recruit Australians.


Whenever I think about what can and can't be accomplished in EvE, I ask myself "What would GoonSwarm do?"

They would make a plan, and follow through.


Well, we wouldn't propose a mechanic that made it impossible for anyone other than us to hold space for one thing. This would hurt us, yes, but it'd also completely cripple anyone smaller.

Why is that good for the game?


It's not, it's only good for the POS bashers.

Carebear extraordinaire

Captain Phil
Miner's Revenge
#13 - 2015-03-15 20:21:03 UTC
Quote:
Well, we wouldn't propose a mechanic that made it impossible for anyone other than us to hold space for one thing. This would hurt us, yes, but it'd also completely cripple anyone smaller.

Why is that good for the game?


Hurt, cripple, large, and small are relative terms. By today's standards, things would be drastically different. Owning three systems and ten POSes might be considered "large" without reinforcement.

I argue reinforcement hurts the little guys, because it limits their options for warfare. A fixed time limit does not scale proportionately, and gives the advantage to the larger force who is more capable of organizing a quick response.

Admittedly, my experience is severely limited; I do not know what a small force can really accomplish under the current system.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-03-15 20:26:30 UTC
Captain Phil wrote:
Quote:
Well, we wouldn't propose a mechanic that made it impossible for anyone other than us to hold space for one thing. This would hurt us, yes, but it'd also completely cripple anyone smaller.

Why is that good for the game?


Hurt, cripple, large, and small are relative terms. By today's standards, things would be drastically different. Owning three systems and ten POSes might be considered "large" without reinforcement.

I argue reinforcement hurts the little guys, because it limits their options for warfare. A fixed time limit does not scale proportionately, and gives the advantage to the larger force who is more capable of organizing a quick response.

Admittedly, my experience is severely limited; I do not know what a small force can really accomplish under the current system.



If you are a small group, then you time your stuff to exit reinforcement at a time you are actually going to be online to defend it. How, exactly, does that hurt you when compared with just flat out losing it with no chance at all of fighting back?

If you have no experience with timers, why are you proposing their removal?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#15 - 2015-03-15 20:26:41 UTC
Captain Phil wrote:
[

Admittedly, my experience is severely limited; I do not know what a small force can really accomplish under the current system.


more than it could with your currant proposal
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#16 - 2015-03-15 20:27:08 UTC
Brief military superiority should not mean that you can immediately steamroll everything.

Russian groups would both be able to kill anything they want while everyone else is sleeping, and be unable to hold onto anything while they are sleeping.

Mid sized WH groups would wake up one morning floating in space after someone came in and smashed everything before they knew they were even under attack.

Staging POS's in warzones would be useless since the enemy could bubblecage the tower, kill it, then put in a hellpbubbled death star where it was if the peopel tried to safe log in the tower before it died.

This is a terrible idea.


-1
Juan Mileghere
The Corporate Raiders
Safety.
#17 - 2015-03-15 20:32:47 UTC
I agree, this Idea is the best proposed change to POSes with one change, if you destroy a POS you should lose the ability to dock for ten years and open containers for three months to balance this...
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#18 - 2015-03-15 20:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
your idea just makes it so bashes are nothing more than that since the defenders are not going to be able to get a defense up in the 45 min it takes to grind out a tower

With 7 dreds and 10 battleships you can knock over an small POS (with no strontium in it) in less than 15-20 minutes.

Get 20 dreds (not an unreasonable number) and a small POS will die in one siege cycle (5 minutes).


Now... you COULD increase small POS hitpoints to give more time for the defenders to summon up the force necessary to counter the attack... assuming that you are attacking during the defender's timezone...

but this would not work out too well.

Why?
- it won't scale well. The attacker will simply bring more people (if they have the bodies available).
- increasing the HP levels of POSs can make the POS unreasonably difficult for smaller groups to kill them.
- it still doesn't address the issue of certain groups existing only in certain timezones.


OP... your idea smacks of someone who either...

- hates timers and wants them removed... regardless of the consequences to the rest of the game

- doesn't care about "smaller" groups. In your eyes, if you want anything nice then you need to be a massive alliance with all timezones covered. And you don't care if that is an unreasonable "mandate."
Captain Phil
Miner's Revenge
#19 - 2015-03-15 20:45:28 UTC
Quote:
If you are a small group, then you time your stuff to exit reinforcement at a time you are actually going to be online to defend it. How, exactly, does that hurt you when compared with just flat out losing it with no chance at all of fighting back?


Because being the smaller inherently means that you are not able to successfully defend your assets [against a superior force]. Yes, there are things that can be done, of course. But these same things can be accomplished with or without reinforcement. The better force will win, the lesser force will lose.

I've been on the losing end before. The better force came, defeated us, and had to wait for the timer. All I could do was watch.

Quote:
If you have no experience with timers, why are you proposing their removal?


Because the theme is the same throughout. I did not receive a 40 hour warning when I flew my Orca into the gank fest that was Jita (well I technically did when I read the forum post days earlier, but that's besides the point). I knew the risks, I made a decision, and I faced the consequences.

It should be (I think) the same with POSes and Sovereignty.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#20 - 2015-03-15 20:47:19 UTC
Reinforced mode is actually a conflict driver. It forces parties to show up at the same spot at the same time. Removing it will result in more PVP avoidance.
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