These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

Amarr "Khanid" Style Tech 1 Ships
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2011-12-03 01:55:41 UTC
There are a few ships in the Amarr line up that I think should be altered in a way to make them a sort of wild card ship that would allow players to chose to be able to fly their tech 1 ships in a way to match the Amarr Khanid combat philosophy. The ships that I am going to propose changing into these are as follows: Punisher, Maller, Prophecy, Abaddon (maybe? not sure what this would do to balance).

Here is the idea:

These ships all follow a similar design philosophy already, all have the 5% armor resistance bonus, and so would be prime ships to change as a line up. Most of these ships are underwhelming and for the most part used as bait ships (looking at you Maller and Prophecy).

Drop the 10% capacitor reduction and make them like the Abaddon is already and give these ships the 5% Laser damage bonus. This will not interrupt the ships as most people are already using them but would give a bonus to laser damage that might make the lasers worth fitting on these ships at the cost of extreme energy consumption.

Lastly to make these ships have some crazy ridiculous options available to them, and allow for some Khanid style Amarr tech 1 action, give them unbonused missile launcher hardpoints. Punisher with 3 launcher hardpoints, Maller with 5 launcher hardpoints, Prophecy with 6 launcher hardpoints, and maybe Abaddon with 7-8 launcher hardpoints.

To do this there might need to be CPU value tweaks that would make it so they can fit but with armored modules using low cpu (Adaptive Nano Plates use none) these ships could be constructed in the way where they have ample cpu for Heatsinks but would not be able to cram in Ballistic Control Units making them both good at laser dps and at armor tanking while using much less damaging capless weapon systems (you could always still fit your ACs too but to me making them able to carry missiles and follow Khanid combat doctrine would be cool).

I for one love the new Maller hull and would love to have a reason to fly the damn thing.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#2 - 2011-12-03 03:58:51 UTC
+0.75

This would address the selectable damage issue Amarr have, at least for the lower tier ships. The Maller and Prophecy are good suggestions for this treatment. I'd replace Punisher with Inquisitor, obvious really since it's already a missile platform. Punisher needs to be looked at anyway, but for different reasons (an Amarr ship should not be optimal with autocannons. It's the principle.) The BS's are in good shape and I don't see a need to mess with them overmuch- missiles are not well utilized in the battleship class and I think the amarr hull that got this treatment would be taking a step backward. Making a Khanid Faction hull is an option, but certainly no need to replace the existing ones.

Overhaul Dscan!
VKhaun Vex
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-12-03 04:29:31 UTC
I was a big fan of the Khanid style when I started out, but it really didn't work at low skill points. Rockets felt completely useless compared to turrets and it was much harder to fit my ship within PG/CPU.

Cheap-o T1 doesn't really seem to fit with the Khanid either...

But if you just HAD to do it, I would say make the Tormentor a Khanid ship. The mini miner niche could be an excuse, and it wouldn't break the continuity of the Khanid improving T1 ships, since it has no T2. Just add two launchers to the fitting and make it black.

Charges Twilight fans with Ka-bar -Surfin's PlunderBunny LIIIIIIIIIIINNEEEEE PIIIEEEECCCCEEE!!!!!!! -Taedrin Using relativity to irrational numbers is smart -rodyas I no longer believe we landed on the moon. -Atticus Fynch
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2011-12-03 07:11:10 UTC
VKhaun Vex wrote:
I was a big fan of the Khanid style when I started out, but it really didn't work at low skill points. Rockets felt completely useless compared to turrets and it was much harder to fit my ship within PG/CPU.

Cheap-o T1 doesn't really seem to fit with the Khanid either...

But if you just HAD to do it, I would say make the Tormentor a Khanid ship. The mini miner niche could be an excuse, and it wouldn't break the continuity of the Khanid improving T1 ships, since it has no T2. Just add two launchers to the fitting and make it black.


Was not saying they should be Khanid ships, just that I think Amarr t1 ships should have some more viable options for people whos goal it is to fly the t2 Khanid ships. Sorry if that was unclear.

Maller and Prophecy both need some kind of revamp and I am personally annoyed that Punishers run around with ACs all the time and think that changing their bonus to damage might be a step in the right direction.
Mastin Dragonfly
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-12-03 17:47:57 UTC
Amarr ship line up could use a bit of variety besides lasers with armor. There are only two tech 1 Amarr combat ships that are different (arbitrator and inquisitor). Some rocket/HAM/Torp armor tankers would be nice. Armor resist and RoF please. Big smile
Kangaroo Rat
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-12-03 18:20:19 UTC
Norris Packard wrote:
Maller and Prophecy both need some kind of revamp and I am personally annoyed that Punishers run around with ACs all the time and think that changing their bonus to damage might be a step in the right direction.


Yeah. Then rework the Omen so it's a legit laser dps platform and we'll be all good.

The progression for a new Amarrian should look like this:

Maller -> Prophecy -> Sac

or

Omen -> Harb -> Zealot
David Clausewitz
David Clausewitz Corporation
#7 - 2011-12-03 20:43:21 UTC
I'd be fine with the punisher/maller/prophecy, but don't **** with the abaddon it's fine as is.
Khrage
#8 - 2011-12-03 20:52:08 UTC
i won't say i agree, because a lot of what you're saying is messing with a lot of game mechanics. as mentioned before, i think a faction hull would be a better solution to what you are asking. though the punisher is out of the question since it it considered pure amarr, same with the baddon - armor tank and laser gank, simple. the maller and prophecy aren't ebing touched either. they are the tankier choices in their pairs with the gankier omen and harb.

i was hoping that the navy geddon would get a khanid touch up, but CCP doesn't want to take away torp surprmacy from the raven, ever (as we saw with the naga losing its torp capabilities). and simply a torp boat with a lot of launchers, torp bonus, and a ton of low slots would but the raven out of business very quickly.

if we shrink it down to battlecruisers, same basic principle but with the drake needing to be the end all and be all of missile ability. though i feel there is a niche for a t2 or maybe faction BC with bonuses to HAMs, since the Nighthawk gets only heavy bonuses and the Damnation is not a brawler ship and works a ton better with heavies than HAMs. Again though, either Caldari or Khanid, CCP hasn't given this bonus to a ship, probably for a reason. but i feel this area would be your best bet in hoping for more khanid style ships with lack of faction versions yet.

Shrink down to cruisers, we have a good handful of khanid style ships. as far as t1 goes, the arb will get anyone started with non-laser amarr style play, but again, the caracal must be the dominant missile boat. hoping for the navy augoror to be khanid style was worth a shot, but they made it just like they did all the other tier1 navy faction cruisers (*cough* sucky...) by making them based on the stock images of their races, just fast and very limited in situations when they are useful. your best bet at getting a true t1 amarr cruiser with missiles is to hope that the arb switches its turret hard points to launchers. other than that just train up for a sacrilege, it doesn’t take that long. or get a HAM legion, always a good choice.

frigs you already have the inquisitor at t1, and you're not getting anything else, so don't ask. just get on the khanid ship ladder of inquisitor, to the vengeance AF, and then the sac. you'll find yourself getting caldari skills too since u don't want to waste all those missle skill points, you'll get a drake and raven. and if you really want an armor tanking torp boat you'll get a phoon.

now that you have caldari and minmater skills you will want to take advantage of that SP so you'll start training for one of their turrets/E-war and become more of a pure blood of either one of those races with khanid as a rarely use secondary group of ships you use.

recap, caldari = missile gods, so don't hope for missiles to make a real showing any where in another races t1 line up. there are plenty of choices for anything anyone ever wants to do in eve. but what you;re asking changes the mechanics too much. hope for a faction amarr BC, and that's the closest thing you'll get to getting a non-t2 khanid style ship.
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2011-12-03 21:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Norris Packard
Stupid Forums messing things up.
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2011-12-03 21:33:03 UTC
Khrage wrote:
i won't say i agree, because a lot of what you're saying is messing with a lot of game mechanics. as mentioned before, i think a faction hull would be a better solution to what you are asking. though the punisher is out of the question since it it considered pure amarr, same with the baddon - armor tank and laser gank, simple. the maller and prophecy aren't ebing touched either. they are the tankier choices in their pairs with the gankier omen and harb.

i was hoping that the navy geddon would get a khanid touch up, but CCP doesn't want to take away torp surprmacy from the raven, ever (as we saw with the naga losing its torp capabilities). and simply a torp boat with a lot of launchers, torp bonus, and a ton of low slots would but the raven out of business very quickly.

if we shrink it down to battlecruisers, same basic principle but with the drake needing to be the end all and be all of missile ability. though i feel there is a niche for a t2 or maybe faction BC with bonuses to HAMs, since the Nighthawk gets only heavy bonuses and the Damnation is not a brawler ship and works a ton better with heavies than HAMs. Again though, either Caldari or Khanid, CCP hasn't given this bonus to a ship, probably for a reason. but i feel this area would be your best bet in hoping for more khanid style ships with lack of faction versions yet.

Shrink down to cruisers, we have a good handful of khanid style ships. as far as t1 goes, the arb will get anyone started with non-laser amarr style play, but again, the caracal must be the dominant missile boat. hoping for the navy augoror to be khanid style was worth a shot, but they made it just like they did all the other tier1 navy faction cruisers (*cough* sucky...) by making them based on the stock images of their races, just fast and very limited in situations when they are useful. your best bet at getting a true t1 amarr cruiser with missiles is to hope that the arb switches its turret hard points to launchers. other than that just train up for a sacrilege, it doesn’t take that long. or get a HAM legion, always a good choice.

frigs you already have the inquisitor at t1, and you're not getting anything else, so don't ask. just get on the khanid ship ladder of inquisitor, to the vengeance AF, and then the sac. you'll find yourself getting caldari skills too since u don't want to waste all those missle skill points, you'll get a drake and raven. and if you really want an armor tanking torp boat you'll get a phoon.

now that you have caldari and minmater skills you will want to take advantage of that SP so you'll start training for one of their turrets/E-war and become more of a pure blood of either one of those races with khanid as a rarely use secondary group of ships you use.

recap, caldari = missile gods, so don't hope for missiles to make a real showing any where in another races t1 line up. there are plenty of choices for anything anyone ever wants to do in eve. but what you;re asking changes the mechanics too much. hope for a faction amarr BC, and that's the closest thing you'll get to getting a non-t2 khanid style ship.


I had stated that they should be unbonused missiles, This while allowing for variety of fittings should not be able to threaten the other missile ships dominance of missiles in any way. As for torpedoes, I don't think that a ship with 7 unbonused launchers would be a threat to the Ravens dominance or even the Typhoons. Raven has 8 effective with better flight times and ranges while also having 2 utility highs, Typhoon has ~6.66 effective launchers but has 3 utility highs or even more bonused weapon systems.

I see your point with the Punisher but again think that you could give it the option without it really changing anything. The Inquisitor would be using bonused missile systems and would then be a better choice if you wanted damage where a Punisher fitted with missiles could be tanky. Also just for sake of uniformity I think it would be cool to have a clear hierarchy of Punisher-> Maller-> Prophecy-> Abaddon but again it is not necessary. The fist three do really need looking into to give them some sort of reason to be flown (or at least not with ACs).
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2011-12-03 21:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Norris Packard
Double Post
Khrage
#12 - 2011-12-04 00:40:11 UTC
did a little misreading, my mistake. overall, adding launchers hardpoints to the t1 hull variants of the vengeance, sacrilege, and damnation (punisher, maller, and prophecy) is a logical idea. it makes as much sense as strapping ACs on them, just that your dps would be horrific. cpu issues aside, having that extra powergrid from lack of guns would make for even stronger tanks on these already very tanky ships. almost just hunks of metal floating around in space with a sling shot glued on. at least ACs give you a dmg increase. and these ships are also already the end all be all in tanky ships in their categories already. i'm sure this is a long thought out and calculated subject for ccp already and changing that (aka work/time put into) just to have effectively worse versions of the ships to benefit very few players isn't something i see happening any time soon.

the arb, trying to view things like CCP, would still be the best bet for adding launcher hardpoints. since it also have a khanid t2 brother and would actually see non-overwhelming gain from them. same thing goes for the executioner, it's not a pure amarr tank hull like the punisher, has a khanid t2 version, and would slightly benefit from it.

amarr ships are also supposed to be the most 1 dimensional ships in eve (t1s and laser based t2s) adding that extra component might be too much in the devs eyes. from the storyline viewpoint, khanid ships are sacrilegious. lasers and pure and why would the amarr empire, who makes all the t1 hulls stick demon spawns such as missiles on their pure amarr builds? again, makes sense for something like the arb that doesn't fit along normal amarr specs... but that's pushing it already.

ps - still like your idea, and i wish there were more amarr missile boats too. as you could probably tell from my 1st post on this thread, i've gone really in-depth in the subject trying to see where such ships could fit into eve.
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2011-12-04 21:23:37 UTC
Khrage wrote:
did a little misreading, my mistake. overall, adding launchers hardpoints to the t1 hull variants of the vengeance, sacrilege, and damnation (punisher, maller, and prophecy) is a logical idea. it makes as much sense as strapping ACs on them, just that your dps would be horrific. cpu issues aside, having that extra powergrid from lack of guns would make for even stronger tanks on these already very tanky ships. almost just hunks of metal floating around in space with a sling shot glued on. at least ACs give you a dmg increase. and these ships are also already the end all be all in tanky ships in their categories already. i'm sure this is a long thought out and calculated subject for ccp already and changing that (aka work/time put into) just to have effectively worse versions of the ships to benefit very few players isn't something i see happening any time soon.

the arb, trying to view things like CCP, would still be the best bet for adding launcher hardpoints. since it also have a khanid t2 brother and would actually see non-overwhelming gain from them. same thing goes for the executioner, it's not a pure amarr tank hull like the punisher, has a khanid t2 version, and would slightly benefit from it.

amarr ships are also supposed to be the most 1 dimensional ships in eve (t1s and laser based t2s) adding that extra component might be too much in the devs eyes. from the storyline viewpoint, khanid ships are sacrilegious. lasers and pure and why would the amarr empire, who makes all the t1 hulls stick demon spawns such as missiles on their pure amarr builds? again, makes sense for something like the arb that doesn't fit along normal amarr specs... but that's pushing it already.

ps - still like your idea, and i wish there were more amarr missile boats too. as you could probably tell from my 1st post on this thread, i've gone really in-depth in the subject trying to see where such ships could fit into eve.


Storyline is very easy to fix and change to allow them to do anything they want.

"Relationships with the Empire and Kingdom have been greatly improved and with this new found spirit of cooperation the Amarr Empire has decided to bring in all said ships for an overhaul and refit having seen the viability of their allies ships and combat doctrine proven in combat against the enemies of the Empire. At the same time knowing that many Amarrian fleet commanders disapprove of the Kingdom's combat doctrine these ships are also reviving a substantial upgrade to standard laser combat abilities at the cost of their capacitor stability. May these improvements help cleanse the stars of heathens."

Also with the way that the Empire has branched out before at times into non-traditional combat ships helps to pave the way for changes to some of the other ships. Anyways the Prophecy and Abaddon are already tainted by missile hardpoints.
Alexander Yukari
The Foundation Of Mammon
#14 - 2011-12-04 23:00:13 UTC
Very radical change, would be better with new hulls instead of changing old ones.

You could try another approach, set of new navy ships.

Inquisitor Khanid Navy Issue
Omen Khanid Navy Issue (model is in game and looks amazing)
Abbadon Khanid Navy Issue

Available in Khanid Navy LP store.

This would require some new toys for other secondary factions like Ammatar and others so everyone is happy.

Or just one type of new ship for each faction, navy issue BCs. Amarr one could be Khanid issue.

PS. Leave my AA punisher alone.
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2011-12-04 23:27:02 UTC
Alexander Yukari wrote:
Very radical change, would be better with new hulls instead of changing old ones.

You could try another approach, set of new navy ships.

Inquisitor Khanid Navy Issue
Omen Khanid Navy Issue (model is in game and looks amazing)
Abbadon Khanid Navy Issue

Available in Khanid Navy LP store.

This would require some new toys for other secondary factions like Ammatar and others so everyone is happy.

Or just one type of new ship for each faction, navy issue BCs. Amarr one could be Khanid issue.

PS. Leave my AA punisher alone.


My proposal has no impact on the function of your AC Punisher as is, just gives you more options.

Faction ships are expensive and the idea here was to a) fix some of the issues with sub battleship Amarr line up and b) to allow people whose goal it would be to fly the t2 Khanid Kingdom ships a way to fly something while reaching for that goal.

Most of these hulls need a radical change because as they are they are not flown. When was the last time you have seen a Maller or Prophecy used for anything other than bait ships? Do you see Punishers armed with lasers ever? For the most part I don't and that is in part because these ships don't give a reason to. As for the idea of giving them some unbonused missile hardpoints, how is that much different than their ability to fit projectiles now? It would give younger players a chance to learn the weapon systems of a third of the races tech 2 line up and would also add a bit of variety to combat, both good things for the game.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-12-05 15:07:37 UTC
Norris Packard wrote:
Khrage wrote:
did a little misreading, my mistake. overall, adding launchers hardpoints to the t1 hull variants of the vengeance, sacrilege, and damnation (punisher, maller, and prophecy) is a logical idea. it makes as much sense as strapping ACs on them, just that your dps would be horrific. cpu issues aside, having that extra powergrid from lack of guns would make for even stronger tanks on these already very tanky ships. almost just hunks of metal floating around in space with a sling shot glued on. at least ACs give you a dmg increase. and these ships are also already the end all be all in tanky ships in their categories already. i'm sure this is a long thought out and calculated subject for ccp already and changing that (aka work/time put into) just to have effectively worse versions of the ships to benefit very few players isn't something i see happening any time soon.

the arb, trying to view things like CCP, would still be the best bet for adding launcher hardpoints. since it also have a khanid t2 brother and would actually see non-overwhelming gain from them. same thing goes for the executioner, it's not a pure amarr tank hull like the punisher, has a khanid t2 version, and would slightly benefit from it.

amarr ships are also supposed to be the most 1 dimensional ships in eve (t1s and laser based t2s) adding that extra component might be too much in the devs eyes. from the storyline viewpoint, khanid ships are sacrilegious. lasers and pure and why would the amarr empire, who makes all the t1 hulls stick demon spawns such as missiles on their pure amarr builds? again, makes sense for something like the arb that doesn't fit along normal amarr specs... but that's pushing it already.

ps - still like your idea, and i wish there were more amarr missile boats too. as you could probably tell from my 1st post on this thread, i've gone really in-depth in the subject trying to see where such ships could fit into eve.


Storyline is very easy to fix and change to allow them to do anything they want.

"Relationships with the Empire and Kingdom have been greatly improved and with this new found spirit of cooperation the Amarr Empire has decided to bring in all said ships for an overhaul and refit having seen the viability of their allies ships and combat doctrine proven in combat against the enemies of the Empire. At the same time knowing that many Amarrian fleet commanders disapprove of the Kingdom's combat doctrine these ships are also reviving a substantial upgrade to standard laser combat abilities at the cost of their capacitor stability. May these improvements help cleanse the stars of heathens."

Also with the way that the Empire has branched out before at times into non-traditional combat ships helps to pave the way for changes to some of the other ships. Anyways the Prophecy and Abaddon are already tainted by missile hardpoints.


Somehow...this'd actually make some sense, given the recent thaw in Amarr-Khanid relations...
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-12-05 15:18:16 UTC
Punisher, Maller and Prophecy need damage bonuses and 'khanidizing' them would be a great way to add some variety. Cap usage + armor resist bonuses just don't work.
Macon Chalaise
VNM Biological Survey Corps
#18 - 2011-12-06 00:23:05 UTC
Be nice to see missile hardpoint bonuses on Amarr ships that have any hardpoint bonuses.

Or any ship for that matter...if it has a hardpoint for something and gets hardpoint bonuses why make it seem like it is usually better to ignore one of the weapon types, (missiles on apoc and abaddon for instance), especially on ships that may have limited damage types?

Just my $.02.

Here's to fire. Not the fast and furious kind that burns down shacks and shanties, but the slow, seductive kind that takes down pants and panties - Irish Toast
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2011-12-07 06:32:11 UTC
Macon Chalaise wrote:
Be nice to see missile hardpoint bonuses on Amarr ships that have any hardpoint bonuses.

Or any ship for that matter...if it has a hardpoint for something and gets hardpoint bonuses why make it seem like it is usually better to ignore one of the weapon types, (missiles on apoc and abaddon for instance), especially on ships that may have limited damage types?

Just my $.02.


I wouldn't want to see the Amarr ships get bonused missiles for fear that they would tread too heavily on Caldari territory, they should be an option for allowing the use of extra grid for tanking but not the main choice for damage dealing.

I have been playing with the Maller (seemed to be the ship most desperately needing change) and here is what It seems to need:

Both the Omen and Maller lack the grid to handle fitting even the lighter of the two medium sized pulse weapons along with prop injectors and even light tanks, so it needs to have slightly greater grid. A flat 1300 (this can be played around with more) would allow for it to fit the HPL2s with 2 grid rigs and that seems like the right amount of fitting rigs needed for fitting massive firepower while having some tank/buffer

The Maller would also need about +55 more CPU to handle fitting HAMs bringing the base CPU up to 335. This change would also allow for the Maller to get a few heatsinks on when used as a laser boat.

Also think that the Maller needs the 15m3 drone bay that the Omen has (Omen will still out-damage the Maller but the gap will be much smaller). That Drone bay is shared by the Sacrilege too so seems fitting.

It is a radical change and would increase the power of the Maller; this should not be done without fixing the Omen as well (mostly grid buff).
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-12-07 12:38:37 UTC
As a Khanid pilot, I'd really like something T1 that fit my skills. At the frigate level (which is where I spend most of my time), it would be simple to allow the Punisher to fit 3 launchers. Ta-da. Khanid.

Not perfect, of course. I'd love a rocket damage bonus, and I'd be prepared to lose a low slot to gain the Khanid mid slot. But it's still pretty damn close.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.
123Next page