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Black OPS and the need for a re-design

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Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#101 - 2015-03-17 14:57:35 UTC
Vizjira wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Vizjira wrote:
But telling the fleet to take a 30min break after killing a ship is simply not enjoyable or engaging gameplay.


Perhaps you should go to systems with more targets then?


I assume you lack practical experience using jump drives.

Let's assume you find 5 targets to kill and a jump range of 5ly between them.

1+5*0.5 = 3.5

Jump: 3.5min cd and 35min fatigue
Wait 3.5min: ~112min fatigue
Wait 11min: ~375min fatigue
Wait 37.5min: ~1270min fatigue
Wait 127min: ~4333min fatigue
Wait 433min (7h) and back home (assuming also 5ly): 14700min (245h~ 10 days) fatigue and a day cooldown

-> If you would jump on cooldown you would end up with ~10 days fatigue.

Greetings



No I'm stating that you're deliberately going for single targets, with your jump blob group. If you choose to jump to a system with just one target in it then, guess what, you'll just fight one target till fatigue wears off. If you don't like that you can always choose to go to a more target rich system.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#102 - 2015-03-17 14:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Vizjira wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Vizjira wrote:
But telling the fleet to take a 30min break after killing a ship is simply not enjoyable or engaging gameplay.


Perhaps you should go to systems with more targets then?


I assume you lack practical experience using jump drives.

Let's assume you find 5 targets to kill and a jump range of 5ly between them.

1+5*0.5 = 3.5

Jump: 3.5min cd and 35min fatigue
Wait 3.5min: ~112min fatigue
Wait 11min: ~375min fatigue
Wait 37.5min: ~1270min fatigue
Wait 127min: ~4333min fatigue
Wait 433min (7h) and back home (assuming also 5ly): 14700min (245h~ 10 days) fatigue and a day cooldown

-> If you would jump on cooldown you would end up with ~10 days fatigue.

Greetings


so what is the issue? your not taking into any consideration the battle time, get safe time, cap up, move cyno to next system.

jump 1 = 35min fatigue, battle lasts 5 mins
get safe and cloak/regroup/talk and share reports = 5mins
move cyno to next system and wait for the right time to drop next target = 10mins?

that gives you 5-8.5 mins gap in which time you will receive no fatigue difference from the 10min window.

that in theory is 25mins fatigue for jumping a blops 5ly before it can jump again without a penalty (according to jump fatigue calculator "* Be aware that there is no benefit in waiting for fatigue to decay below 10 minutes")

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#103 - 2015-03-17 15:08:04 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
so what is the issue? your not taking into any consideration the battle time, get safe time, cap up, move cyno to next system.

jump 1 = 35min fatigue, battle lasts 5 mins
get safe and cloak/regroup/talk and share reports = 5mins
move cyno to next system and wait for the right time to drop next target = 10mins?

that gives you 5-8.5 mins gap in which time you will receive no fatigue difference from the 10min window.

that in theory is 25mins fatigue for jumping a blops 5ly before it can jump again without a penalty (according to jump fatigue calculator "* Be aware that there is no benefit in waiting for fatigue to decay below 10 minutes")



Your reply assumes that his... logic... actually makes sense, it doesn't. It's just a "gief moar because of :reasons:".
Vizjira
Nanashi no Geemu
#104 - 2015-03-19 11:17:46 UTC
@Lloyd Roses

For Catch/Deklein etc it is not an option to go home by gate and with this one op, even just dropping three targets at 5ly (no midpoints/refuling etc) locks out your fleet for the rest of the day - for jump bridges, cap-jumps and for hosting another fleet for people who come on earlier/later.

@Gregor Parud

Even if you would find a system with multiple players in it which are oblivious to the fact that you are hunting in their system. Having a 10+ localspike followed by GFs/tears is a hint for most players to dock up. If you ignore that you still run into the risk of running into bait with someone bringing a dictor/cyno etc to your next target - at this point you are putting at least 3b but usually 5b+ on the line to kill a dominix..

@Lan Wang

@5min battle time
outside of cap kills your target will die within the first ~30s

@5min regroup
regrouping doesnt take more than 1-2minutes, cloaking is instant, talking counts as waiting, sharing battle reports takes seconds

@move cyno to next system and wait for the right time to drop next target = 10mins?
First and foremost, that *is* waiting time for everyone but the hunter, because you won't drop until your fatigue goes <=10 (or you take fatigue hits). Secondly you are implying that hunting works like "go into a system and wait there until someone rats". In reality you want to wait a few jumps outside of the targeted system to avoid easy scouting, fly straight into the system, d-scan with changed ranges to find the anom by exclusion etc

Also you are assuming a one hunter/cyno scenario.

And in general, this is 5ly jumps - if you drop deklein from venal, you are looking at ~7ly.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#105 - 2015-03-19 11:25:34 UTC
Vizjira wrote:

@5min battle time
outside of cap kills your target will die within the first ~30s


And thusly, the thread has ended. Smile

Cold tears falling on a hot cyno hot drop.

Will require more tears, cyno is overheating! Cool

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#106 - 2015-03-20 04:07:52 UTC
2 things that can be done right away and solve many of the issues. Give BLOPS a cov ops cloak and remove jump fatigue.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#107 - 2015-03-20 04:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
2 things that can be done right away and solve many of the issues. Give BLOPS a cov ops cloak and remove jump fatigue.


Very solid suggestion, to be frank. Blink



Edit: Oh, HA-HA! Read that wrong, thought at first it was Give CovOps cloak & remove jump capability - which would actually make sense. Smile Removing the jump cap could also warrant an increase of the resist profile upto T2 levels.

Stargate. Roaming. Gangs. of. Cloaked. . . Battleships. YEEEEEaah. Cool

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Justin Zaine
#108 - 2015-03-20 05:29:48 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
2 things that can be done right away and solve many of the issues. Give BLOPS a cov ops cloak and remove jump fatigue.


Sure, lets give them doomsdays while we're at it.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#109 - 2015-03-20 19:19:27 UTC
Vizjira wrote:
@Lloyd Roses

For Catch/Deklein etc it is not an option to go home by gate and with this one op, even just dropping three targets at 5ly (no midpoints/refuling etc) locks out your fleet for the rest of the day - for jump bridges, cap-jumps and for hosting another fleet for people who come on earlier/later.

@Gregor Parud

Even if you would find a system with multiple players in it which are oblivious to the fact that you are hunting in their system. Having a 10+ localspike followed by GFs/tears is a hint for most players to dock up. If you ignore that you still run into the risk of running into bait with someone bringing a dictor/cyno etc to your next target - at this point you are putting at least 3b but usually 5b+ on the line to kill a dominix..

@Lan Wang

@5min battle time
outside of cap kills your target will die within the first ~30s

@5min regroup
regrouping doesnt take more than 1-2minutes, cloaking is instant, talking counts as waiting, sharing battle reports takes seconds

@move cyno to next system and wait for the right time to drop next target = 10mins?
First and foremost, that *is* waiting time for everyone but the hunter, because you won't drop until your fatigue goes <=10 (or you take fatigue hits). Secondly you are implying that hunting works like "go into a system and wait there until someone rats". In reality you want to wait a few jumps outside of the targeted system to avoid easy scouting, fly straight into the system, d-scan with changed ranges to find the anom by exclusion etc

Also you are assuming a one hunter/cyno scenario.

And in general, this is 5ly jumps - if you drop deklein from venal, you are looking at ~7ly.


well whatever, your suggestion is still op as fck and nothing more than buffing an already crazy ship class

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Carl Reltih
Reltih Prospecting and Planetary engineering Inc.
#110 - 2015-03-22 16:26:42 UTC
I've never flown a blop so I can't really speak too much about it, but more ships is always fun!

A change to local would be cool, I'm not sure how though. Maybe if the local area was increased to include more systems (perhaps a region or something) it would still alert the residents but to pin point what actual system the hostiles are lurking in would require some scanning and/or scouts checking for signs of intruders. Of course people could just dock up region wide at the first sign of hostiles, but perhaps if the resident know there are x potetial systems this guy/gang could be in and he felt lucky that day he would keep ratting until intel tells him more or a spai says "its safe keep ratting)))". Putting scouts on gates to catch regular gangs or roamers would still be easy for pin pointing hostiles like it is today.

It would also make **** talking reach a much broader audience which is nice, low sec should be more entertaining than ever. Gatecampers podding a guy who still ends up in the same "local" chat should be awsome.

I don't know, just some ideas, a change of some kind would be nice though.

tbh one of the best parts of WH space is that I can just close the local window without nerfing my self, one less window open and more view of space feels great lol
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#111 - 2015-03-23 03:10:11 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
jump 1 = 35min fatigue, battle lasts 5 mins


If your BLOPS drop takes 5 minutes to kill a ratter, you're doing it wrong.

you need more bombers in your crew.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Phig Neutron
Starbreaker and Sons
#112 - 2015-03-23 05:43:32 UTC
I agree with the OP. Also, the Amarr one needs to be black, a Khanid design with torpedo bonuses.
Gal Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#113 - 2015-03-23 10:36:43 UTC
I think the biggest issue right now is that even CCP doesn't know what to do with them. They are **** poor at actual combat, and melt to anything that bats an eye at it.

I think with combat recons getting d-scan immunity that we may see that come to blops. Now, I would much rather see them be able to use covops, but I think d-scan immune would go a long way to bringing them into more use.


I think I remember a study from a few years back that said that Black Ops was trained by less players than Titans were. Not sure if that is still the case, but that should speak volumes CCP about the viability of the black ops class ship right now.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#114 - 2015-03-23 10:45:04 UTC
Gal Udan wrote:
I think the biggest issue right now is that even CCP doesn't know what to do with them. They are **** poor at actual combat, and melt to anything that bats an eye at it.

I think with combat recons getting d-scan immunity that we may see that come to blops. Now, I would much rather see them be able to use covops, but I think d-scan immune would go a long way to bringing them into more use.


I think I remember a study from a few years back that said that Black Ops was trained by less players than Titans were. Not sure if that is still the case, but that should speak volumes CCP about the viability of the black ops class ship right now.


i dont see how dscan immunity would have any relevance to a ship which lands on top of you, recons can use covops cynos so the idea is they can be used to cyno in the blops undetected, id prefer the other idea of removing the jump drive if you add a cov ops cloak.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*