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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Petition: Remove Slaves from the SCC Markets.

Author
Arrendis
TK Corp
#261 - 2015-08-13 23:19:48 UTC
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
Barsam Akhtar wrote:
I shall add my signature to this noble cause.

The relationship between Holder and Slave is a holy covenant with God: the slave offers their blood and toil to God's greater glory . . .

Phrasing!


Indeed. To say the slave offers something implies they have the option not to.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#262 - 2015-08-13 23:24:41 UTC
The Leopardess wrote:
Oh REALLY? You're going to pull the HERETIC card? I love how everyone and their dog loving grandmother seems to have the authority to dictate what IS and what is not HERESY these days!


How about we just pull the 'victim' card? Because you will be. Soon. Authority, as the Empress demonstrated in Sarum Prime, comes from having the biggest number of the biggest guns. And you don't.

Squeeze what sadistic joy you can from your station, 'holder'. We are coming.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#263 - 2015-08-14 00:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Mr. Toralen. You've said:

Dailar Toralen wrote:
We rule Empires of our own making. It takes them thousands of years to form Empires, it takes us months.


and

Dailar Toralen wrote:
I was wondering when someone was going to catch that. The Intaki are advanced, they will prosper if they are free, make peace, alliances, benefit the galaxy. The Minmatars are primitive creatures, when they were freed all they did was curse this Galaxy to war.


Let me just start off by saying you have no idea what a capsuleer empire is. Months? Hah. This is the labor of years, with no end in sight. There's no short-cut to building a nation, no magic powder that makes immortals more able to work together. If anything, we're more fractious and prone to internal dissent and violence than baseliners, because we're sure we can't die. You want to talk about Empires of our own making? You want to call me and mine 'primitive'? That's fine. I've been called worse.

But you? I'm gonna call you 'coward'. You talk all big and buff... but step outside your little sporting event and come to the where we fight real wars and say that, tough guy. You're nothing but a glorified Combat Biker power forward.

Dailar Toralen wrote:
I would like to clarify something temporarily. My disregard for this Petition is not me supporting slavery


Sooo...

Dailar Toralen wrote:
Also, consider that there are many Capsuleers who fight for the Empire who make a living off of the Slave Trade, and also threw Slave Labor among our ships.


Dailar Toralen wrote:
I never spoke of the SCC, but I did speak of the Slave Trade. We do have right to hold slaves. We are primary suppliers of slaves due to our pillaging and raiding (for some of us).


Which time were you not supporting slavery there? When you argued in favor of treating other human beings like property, or when you argued in favor of treating other human beings like property?
The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2015-08-14 10:17:03 UTC
There's nothing particularily horrible about slavery. If one finds themselves a slave, they should perhaps consider why God is pissed off at them, quite frankly. They've probably been little a**holes.

龴ↀ◡ↀ龴

Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
#265 - 2015-08-14 20:22:14 UTC
Ok, granted I've been out of the loop for a few years.

Given my previous status as a slave of the Empire, I would like to just put here the last official statement I remember from the Ministry of Internal Order:

"1) It is not illegal for capsuleers to transport slaves as cargo within the Empire.
2) It is not illegal for Holders to place their slaves on the open market within the Empire.
3) The SCC-controlled and maintained interstellar marketplace is considered a legal open market by the Empire due to CONCORD treaties.
4) It is not illegal for individuals of all social standing within the Empire to purchase goods and services off an open market.
5) The SCC does not mandate any restrictions based on social standing on any transactions that occur on its interstellar marketplace.

"I can only comment on the base legality of the situation, but am unable to provide commentary on the social, moral, or ethical implications of capsuleers of non-Holder birth who own slaves
." -Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel.

Quoted with all due respects. Apologies if I've missed any official Imperial change since this was written (YC: 115).

If you have a problem with Slavery and open markets, take it up with CONCORD. Amarr doesn't hold a monopoly on the market and every other government signed off on this.

It should also be noted that slavery is different in Khanid, but the above regulations with the SCC are equally binding.

“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#266 - 2015-08-14 20:54:17 UTC
What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.

And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#267 - 2015-08-14 21:16:35 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.

And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.

Only because we are a bit to civilized to want the "right"

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2015-08-14 23:39:31 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.

And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.


Utter bollocks.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#269 - 2015-08-14 23:45:11 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.

And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.



What is binding Lieutenant, is Scripture as defined by the Theology Council. The Ministry of Internal Order deals with individuals who do not follow the Council's definitions. I do not think it is a very wise move to suggest that you know Scripture better than a Grand Inquisitior.

You are also incorrect in that Amarr holds a monopoly on legal slave trade. Khanid is a sovereign signatory on the referenced treaties.

I sincerely hope you will take a moment to deeply consider not responding to this thread any further.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#270 - 2015-08-15 00:26:33 UTC
Scripture clearly states that only Holders may own slaves.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#271 - 2015-08-15 00:34:49 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
What is binding is Scripture, and Scripture defines that only Holders have spiritual authority to own slaves.

And Amarr does hold the monopoly. No other nation has any right to engage in the practice.

Only because we are a bit to civilized to want the "right"

It doesn't actually matter are you for slavery or against, CONCORD spits on every nations ideals, traditions, laws etc. and no one makes a peep.

Where are all those freedom loving gallente with their visions of freedom and liberty for every man or all this ends when CONCORD money get in your pockets? Where are all those brave matari who will not stop until each and every of "their" people are free or all those people on SCC markets became not "yours" all of a sudden? Where are all those honorable caldari who value their State laws and won't let anything or anyone break them? Where are all those proud and just amarr who know the true path and not afraid to follow it or the only one left are hypocrites who will more gladly accuse their own of heresy than stand against CONCORD greed?

All of your great laws, high ideals and traditions mean nothing when they can be broken in your stations and in your own space 'cause of some treaty.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#272 - 2015-08-15 00:49:15 UTC
Lord Mokk,

In the interests of diplomacy, I shall offer only the following in response to your comments:

I disagree.
The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#273 - 2015-08-15 08:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: The Leopardess
Oh, but even us devout Amarrians defy scripture all the time. Everyone is sinful, and causing suffering which is completely under the control of God is not as big of a sin as denying God for example. I am up in arms about that, and you all should be too.

No one should pick and choose priorities based on pet vanities, clearly everyone who is so obsessed with abolishing one of our most time-honored traditions loves the delicious feeling of superiority when they denounce slavers. This sort of false morality is governed by self-righteousness instead of the righteousness of God.

One should always prioritize based on the gravity of the sin, and using force against another human being as long as it doesn't involve killing them or preventing them from praying is just a little bit of a sin when it is done by the irreligious. If they are God-fearing it is not as bad as a non-slaver who promotes vigorously the falsehood of their precious "freedom" like in the Gallente Federation.

Khanid is a part of Amarr and their voice in the matter has to be accounted for as they were chosen by God very early on at the dawn of the Great Crusade, this is undeniable.

龴ↀ◡ↀ龴

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#274 - 2015-08-15 08:22:18 UTC
The Leopardess wrote:
No one should pick and choose priorities based on pet vanities, clearly everyone who is so obsessed with abolishing one of our most time-honored traditions loves the delicious feeling of superiority when they denounce slavers. This sort of false morality is governed by self-righteousness instead of the righteousness of God.


This petition has absolutely nothing to do with abolition. It is about restoring our traditional values, by eliminating the liberal business practices that have allowed non-Holders to own slaves. Scripture clearly defines the divine rights of Holders, among which is the sole ownership of slaves. This is a tradition that must be reclaimed. Commoners and foreigners have no right to own slaves.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#275 - 2015-08-15 08:30:02 UTC
Sinti Vailatti wrote:
Ok, granted I've been out of the loop for a few years.

Given my previous status as a slave of the Empire, I would like to just put here the last official statement I remember from the Ministry of Internal Order:

"1) It is not illegal for capsuleers to transport slaves as cargo within the Empire.
2) It is not illegal for Holders to place their slaves on the open market within the Empire.
3) The SCC-controlled and maintained interstellar marketplace is considered a legal open market by the Empire due to CONCORD treaties.
4) It is not illegal for individuals of all social standing within the Empire to purchase goods and services off an open market.
5) The SCC does not mandate any restrictions based on social standing on any transactions that occur on its interstellar marketplace.

"I can only comment on the base legality of the situation, but am unable to provide commentary on the social, moral, or ethical implications of capsuleers of non-Holder birth who own slaves
." -Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel.

Quoted with all due respects. Apologies if I've missed any official Imperial change since this was written (YC: 115).

If you have a problem with Slavery and open markets, take it up with CONCORD. Amarr doesn't hold a monopoly on the market and every other government signed off on this.

It should also be noted that slavery is different in Khanid, but the above regulations with the SCC are equally binding.



This sounds more and more and more like legal loopholes created from the Empire's association with CONCORD. I fully endorse the SCC markets as a wealth generating and growth supporting enterprise, but in the matter of the sale of slaves that really should be taken off the SCC markets and out of the hands of people like Nauplius.

A re-evaluation of the Empire's treaties and relationship with CONCORD might be in order to prevent this practice from continuing, but that is for our betters to initiate.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2015-08-15 08:32:01 UTC
I don't know if you noticed this, but, there are a lot of other traditional Amarrian values the merchants in those markets have not adopted.

It's still illegal in Amarr, but since when have our laws ever stopped the Godless?

This is like battling an ocean of sin with a hairdryer. The root of the evil is not in this action of selling slaves, it is merely a symptom of a greater sin of not recognizing God's authority and Amarrian authority.

I am more concerned with research and development of warfare technology to permit Amarrians to reclaim the Godless, rather than playing their game on their terms.

I spit on petitions!

龴ↀ◡ↀ龴

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#277 - 2015-08-15 08:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Because this isn't about those markets. This is about our markets. About people who are governed under Scriptural law who refuse to uphold it. The Civic Court and the Ammatar Consulate, both who freely and willingly engage in the sale of slaves to commoners and foreigners in defiance of Scripture and traditional laws. Both who try to cite international law to validate their liberal business practices when the laws they should be concerning themselves with is God's Law.

The fact that someone like myself, a commoner of minmatar descent and former slave, the absolute furthest thing from being a Holder, can go to a Civic Court station in Amarr space and freely purchase slaves from an Imperial institution, is utterly despicable. That is what this is about.
The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#278 - 2015-08-15 09:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: The Leopardess
But you're not going to the Civic Court station and buying slaves. That's your choice. People may choose to sin all the time, that doesn't mean we should analyze ever transaction that happens.

I can't be bothered to go pick up slaves my mother assigns me, and I wouldn't appreciate having to personally travel to the middle of nowhere, interrupting my work in the war machine to have to somehow micromanage slave transactions. She certainly would NOT appreciate having to go there herself either and would probably just reassign holdership as a proxy to someone who would then spend all of their time managing slave transactions in person. Does that sound like Amarrian tradition?

We are granted authority by God, not restrictions based on the shortcomings of others. I will not be bound by this.

This is just going to restrict progress, business, technological advancement and make for longer waits in the holding areas for the slaves.


When my agents go to the markets they are buying more than slaves, and since slaves are replaced so infrequently it is simply not practical to just buy slaves, they need to be in the broader market just for the sake of convenience.

I am not going to have my businesses suffer because some unauthorized and lawless person might see fit to take Sin upon him or herself. That is between them, God and the Inquisition or Concord, whichever jurisdiction they fall under, once that act is committed.

龴ↀ◡ↀ龴

Thornir
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#279 - 2015-08-15 09:31:47 UTC
Signed.

The right to slaves are only to be held by Holders.

FC? Hello. Warp to me! I am here!

The Leopardess
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#280 - 2015-08-15 09:41:34 UTC
Thornir wrote:
Signed.

The right to slaves are only to be held by Holders.



That's not what the "petition" is about. Actually it's not even a well written petition it's just a paragraph from a liberal fruit dictating to Holders how they should conduct business in Amarr.

If every slave in the markets had a Holder standing right next to them they still wouldn't be happy.

龴ↀ◡ↀ龴