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New sov system bad for current sov holders?

Author
Conflict Engaged
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-03-11 22:29:08 UTC
Artemis Ellery Sazas wrote:
While I admire your desire to own your own sov, you are very wrong about what will happen. My friend from IC is completely right on this one.

There is one part of this that outsiders do not seem to understand, holding a successful sov system is a A LOT of work! If you don't increase your military and industry levels, then install the proper upgrades your system will be basically worthless. When you do raise your m & i levels and install the upgrades, you will become a target. Getting those upgrades into system is a logistical nightmare at the best of times. Then once your system is all upgraded you will be blobbed or ransomed. If you don't pay, your ihub will be popped and you will have to start all over again. If a corp or alliance does not intend to upgrade their system, then why take it in the first place?

This system is seriously flawed in so many ways. I predict after a period of 3-6 months null sec will be emptier and worse off than ever. Sov will be too easy to take, especially from the smaller guys, 500 members or less and most systems will be left empty. Behind closed doors it is already being planned to grief sov newbies back to where they came from.

You can make bold plans, but in the end you do not understand the true power of the big coalitions.

That's fine and dandy, but if you have the numbers to take a system, and with June offering the chance to decide when timers happen, you should have the numbers to hold it too. I understand that the bigger coalitions are more dominant, but there's no possible way of N3 renters holding their space. It would be too much chaos. So while Nul will become a little more chaotic with the chance for newer groups to join in on the action, it also will make it so the smaller your lump of sov is, the easier it will be to hold.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#22 - 2015-03-12 01:56:31 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
As an Aussie it's particularly galling to think that most if not all timers in nullsec will magically land outside our timezone. So unless you buy sov off someone and reset to AU TZ, you can't do diddly squat. What a massive load of horse dung. And let's face it, who'd sell sov to Aussies, because once we reset it to GMT 11 +/-2 it's a horrible process to attack us, so it just won't happen.


All the time, I'm wondering how the AU tz is playing atm, since nothing of importance happens during that tz. And then, a vast part of asian/russian tz is also halfway into the AU tz, yet I see them everywhere in null during EU.

Raises the suspicion some aussis just getting overly bugged over an issue that actually is none.


With all due respect, you know not of what you speak.

Firstly, AU TZ is actually a 4 hour block of timezones if you include the Kiwis. The vast majority (80%) of Aussies live on the east coast (AEST). During summertime down here the east coast AU has daylight savings, pushing DT later into the night, and also pushing the west and east coast apart. I live west side and at ~10:00 p.m. WST we get what i call RUS Hour, when the Russians sign on. Summertime, that's 1 a.m. east side, and midnight during autumn and winter.

So, best case scenario, RUS Hour for nullsec starts a structure grind midnight AEST. Or 2 a.m. in New Zealand. Worst case scenario, it starts at 1 a.m.. We are talking the difference between 3 p.m. in Moscow and nearly 1 a.m. in Sydney. Who's going to win that battle when it becomes a warm bodies and entosis alts battle?

You also display a grand ignorance of nullsec. AU TZ at the moment does OK because of the way timers are structured - you start sov attacks midweek (thursday latest) and usually around downtime or before. This gives AU TZ the dirty work but a decently cohesive AU TZ corp in, say, NC Dot or PL or wherever, is an important tool for getting an assault rolling. The EHP/DPS equation favours surprise attacks in this TZ because if you pile the DPS on you get in and out within the space of 3 siege cycles.

So even though you don't get huge battles, you get to go do some boring sov grinds for 30 minutes, then go back to ratting, waiting for a content creator to create content, or go roaming. Then, 2-3 days later you turn up for the POS, I-hub, etc when it's cooked, and if it falls into EU TZ on the weekend you stay up late and shoost a bunch of duders.

Put the Prime Time crap in, and this goes away. No point having numerical superiority in the AU TZ, you literally cannot do anything. End of story. You can stay up till insane times, midweek, but good luck explaining to your boss and wife why you are always hairy-mouthed thursdays and fridays. Try doing that for 3 years straight, see how you like it. And then the timers come out at even more ludicrous times because it might take 4-6 hours to beat down the defences, resulting in a 4 a.m. alarm clock op on a monday morning. Hah.

So yeah, that is apparently "whining" or something. I call it maths and scheduling logistics, and it's utterly arse for the AU TZ.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-03-17 17:33:05 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Conflict Engaged wrote:

It won't be that easy come June. There are too many new fresh faces out there for sov, which is why CCP are making it a little easier for people to take renter sov, because they will barely be able to hold it all. I reckon 'Provibloc 2.0' will get greedy and invade Catch, and CFC will start to take N3 renter sov, but they're all crying about it anyway, except for Provibloc :)


The regular annoyance of actually living in sov 0.0 is going to be hilarious for these first time sov havers. Hope they have a decent sized group of neutral JF dudes, and once they are seen actively ratting/mining their space all of the predator squads from the various alliances shall fall on them like wolves.


Interesting,

Is then the entire concept of sov fundamentally flawed?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-03-18 22:51:47 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Conflict Engaged wrote:

It won't be that easy come June. There are too many new fresh faces out there for sov, which is why CCP are making it a little easier for people to take renter sov, because they will barely be able to hold it all. I reckon 'Provibloc 2.0' will get greedy and invade Catch, and CFC will start to take N3 renter sov, but they're all crying about it anyway, except for Provibloc :)


The regular annoyance of actually living in sov 0.0 is going to be hilarious for these first time sov havers. Hope they have a decent sized group of neutral JF dudes, and once they are seen actively ratting/mining their space all of the predator squads from the various alliances shall fall on them like wolves.


Interesting,

Is then the entire concept of sov fundamentally flawed?


Sorry missed the response.

The method by which it is implemented is yes. Currently sov nullsec attracts people who are basically wanting to play "Spaceship Game of Thrones Online" and suffer through all the garbage that entails. Goonswarm is unique in that we like to actually occupy and use our Sov, you've heard the "This nullsec is empty as hell" quote here on the forums many times I'm sure, and it's true. Why? It's a pain in the ass to continuously supply yourself with everything from ships to fuel to ammo just to live in your space. It gets especially bad in deep 0.0 like Tenal.

To give in an example: Goonswarm federation lives in the most densely packed nullsec in the game, we're the ideal sovholding entity if you want a vibrant and booming nullsec full of people who make money, live, eat, breath war and die in nullsec. If you want to kill ratters doing dumb stuff? Deklein is the place to be. It's packed to the gills. But there's a hidden cost that most people don't talk about, and it's the answer to "Why most people just don't bother." Logistics.

We have 3 major JF services (Privately owned companies that serve the alliance by jumping in all the garbage we need for the day to day). One very large one worked by several pilots, one medium sized service run by a single person, and a small one used mainly for inter deklein shipping.

The JF of the medium sized group was talking in his thread (where he lists prices et al) about his backbone the other day. The gist of it is this. He uses 27 characters to run his supply chain. Multiple freighter/JF pilots. Does that sound stupid to you? It sounds stupid to me. And this is just ONE of three services supplying us.

Everything we need must be shipped in, oh local production helps a little but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the sheer mass we ship in. And I should mention this is the easy way. The hard way involves pilots just flat out doing their own personal logistics which is a giant pain in the ass since the jump changes (On deployments to odd parts of the galaxy I would often redfrog/pushx stuff to a lowsec staging and go snag it with my carrier, NOT ANYMORE, guess I need a ******* JF pilot, thanks.)

Basically anyone wanting to live in nullsec has to face these challenges, and they are woefully unprepared for it. Just fully towering your own region is a headache that's a 10+ person job and involves freighters and nail biting. God forbid you want to drop a station egg.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#25 - 2015-03-18 23:59:34 UTC
Conflict Engaged wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
You can't hold it.

N3/PL/CFC may ignore you if you take a random system and leave it empty.
-You move there, starts to upgrade it and use it.
-They contact you and demand rent.
-If you refuse, they roll you.
-You leave, wait for things to quiet down.
-You retake it. They ignore you again.
-You move there and starts upgrade and use it, they roll you again.
Rinse and repeat.

And btw, they don't need their supers to take sov now. So jump nerf now exist purely to annoy jf pilots. They roll you in their tengu blobs, traveling to the other end of Eve within an hour.

See how it works now?P


It won't be that easy come June. There are too many new fresh faces out there for sov, which is why CCP are making it a little easier for people to take renter sov, because they will barely be able to hold it all. I reckon 'Provibloc 2.0' will get greedy and invade Catch, and CFC will start to take N3 renter sov, but they're all crying about it anyway, except for Provibloc :)


You are of course assuming renters don't pvp and wont shoot neutrals when them come in :/. Renters are going to be the Saviors to their slum lords.. unless of course the renters decide to take the sov themselves..

... What next ??

Conflict Engaged
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-03-19 00:06:01 UTC
GordonO wrote:
Conflict Engaged wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
You can't hold it.

N3/PL/CFC may ignore you if you take a random system and leave it empty.
-You move there, starts to upgrade it and use it.
-They contact you and demand rent.
-If you refuse, they roll you.
-You leave, wait for things to quiet down.
-You retake it. They ignore you again.
-You move there and starts upgrade and use it, they roll you again.
Rinse and repeat.

And btw, they don't need their supers to take sov now. So jump nerf now exist purely to annoy jf pilots. They roll you in their tengu blobs, traveling to the other end of Eve within an hour.

See how it works now?P


It won't be that easy come June. There are too many new fresh faces out there for sov, which is why CCP are making it a little easier for people to take renter sov, because they will barely be able to hold it all. I reckon 'Provibloc 2.0' will get greedy and invade Catch, and CFC will start to take N3 renter sov, but they're all crying about it anyway, except for Provibloc :)


You are of course assuming renters don't pvp and wont shoot neutrals when them come in :/. Renters are going to be the Saviors to their slum lords.. unless of course the renters decide to take the sov themselves..

If everyone's after the renter space, which they will be, then regardless of if the renters PvP, it will literally be impossible to hold.
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#27 - 2015-03-19 00:09:49 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
You can't hold it.

N3/PL/CFC may ignore you if you take a random system and leave it empty.
-You move there, starts to upgrade it and use it.
-They contact you and demand rent.
-If you refuse, they roll you.
-You leave, wait for things to quiet down.
-You retake it. They ignore you again.
-You move there and starts upgrade and use it, they roll you again.
Rinse and repeat.

And btw, they don't need their supers to take sov now. So jump nerf now exist purely to annoy jf pilots. They roll you in their tengu blobs, traveling to the other end of Eve within an hour.

See how it works now?P

Exactly my take, Big Alliances can't wait either, but the flip side is Entosis TrollCeptors are going to harass the hell out of the big blocks. Funny stuff for sure.

......................................................

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