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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Bounty System Overhaul

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Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-03-05 00:17:34 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I make you mad and you decide to put a bounty on me. You are really mad and want me dead so you put a 1 bil isk bounty on me. When you put the 1 bil isk bounty on me I get in a hauler load it with loot that has been manipulated to inflate it's value so the system thinks it is worth 1 bil isk, I then kill my self with an alt and collect your isk.

You have to design a system that can not be manipulated to kill one's self for profit. This is the whole issue with the bounty mechanic.


As the chart says, a bounty pay out cannot be extracted if the character in question with a bounty has been captured that does not have the required assets available. Therefore, destroying yourself would equal stealing from yourself. And as long the bounty is not paid in full, all assets of the character in question are frozen. Which means, ALL assets are basically compounded and liquified in statis untill the bounty payment has been reached.

Come on people, this ain't rocket science.


I think you are missing Loyd point.

So I will once again state, play the game, learn the game and you will understand.

I am removing myself from this conversation since I can see this will just keep going in circles.

o/ Enjoy.

EDIT: This should maybe be moved by the ISD out of here and into F&I so the forum trolls can tear you apart.


The point that Loyd has, is having a bounty paid in full was in the the past vulnerable to exploitation.

I'll explain it simple, basically the character in question has to match the bounty with his own assets. When he does, it gets compounded and basically is "Removed from the game". But the sum of bounties paid, gets re-directed to the bounty hunter.

So when an "alt" captures the target in question. He basically trades assets of his character for a bounty.

To simplify it even further, you have to match the bounty with your own assets.

Did you not see the part about manipulating the market to artificially inflate the value of said assets?


Not to mention the market manipulation of liquidating the assets without the hassle of selling them.
Paranoid Loyd
#22 - 2015-03-05 00:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Privateer Cove wrote:
You will have to invest more than the actual worth of the bounty.

No you wouldn't if you did it right, you would actually profit from the manipulation as well. As Kane said learn to play the game before you try to change it.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Privateer Cove
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-03-05 00:29:09 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
You will have to invest more than the actual worth of the bounty.

No you wouldn't if you did it right, you would actually profit from the manipulation as well. As Kane said learn to play the game before you try to change it.


So you're telling me, certain players can corner the market on PLEX. Whilst PLEX is being safeguarded by CCP.
Paranoid Loyd
#24 - 2015-03-05 00:31:40 UTC
When did I say PLEX? It's hardly the only thing on the market.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-03-05 00:32:34 UTC
Privateer Cove wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
You will have to invest more than the actual worth of the bounty.

No you wouldn't if you did it right, you would actually profit from the manipulation as well. As Kane said learn to play the game before you try to change it.


So you're telling me, certain players can corner the market on PLEX. Whilst PLEX is being safeguarded by CCP.


PLEX is not safegaurded by CCP in terms of it's isk value.

Market manipulation is a key form of gameplay in EVE.
Kaiserin Schlacht
Where's Your Castle
#26 - 2015-03-05 00:38:44 UTC
A functional and meaningful bounty system is on every EVE players wishlist.

Its just so darn difficult considering the sheer amount of exploitation in this game
Privateer Cove
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-03-05 01:01:41 UTC
Well the important points to get clear currently are:

Defining asset est.value
Defining illegal/legal bounty placement

Defining and liquidating est.value can be done by making PLEX the standard guideline for measuring bounty value.
Defining bounty placement depends on where to draw to line, it has no benefit of exploitation.

Problem solved
Paranoid Loyd
#28 - 2015-03-05 01:06:00 UTC
How do you relate the value of Fedos to the value of PLEX?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-03-05 01:07:01 UTC
Privateer Cove wrote:
Well the important points to get clear currently are:

Defining asset est.value
Defining illegal/legal bounty placement

Defining and liquidating est.value can be done by making PLEX the standard guideline for measuring bounty value.
Defining bounty placement depends on where to draw to line, it has no benefit of exploitation.

Problem solved















Asset value and PLEX prices are determined though player actions on the market. You've solved nothing.

Really, they weren't kidding when they said learn the game.
Privateer Cove
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-03-05 01:10:53 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
How do you relate the value of Fedos to the value of PLEX?


I'm unaware of the definition Fedos, could you clarify this?
Paranoid Loyd
#31 - 2015-03-05 01:13:11 UTC
It's one of the many items on the market that can have it's value manipulated.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Privateer Cove
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-03-05 01:18:59 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Well the important points to get clear currently are:

Defining asset est.value
Defining illegal/legal bounty placement

Defining and liquidating est.value can be done by making PLEX the standard guideline for measuring bounty value.
Defining bounty placement depends on where to draw to line, it has no benefit of exploitation.

Problem solved



Asset value and PLEX prices are determined though player actions on the market. You've solved nothing.

Really, they weren't kidding when they said learn the game.


Well it is a game that allows these elements, don't interchange game play with game mechanics. There should always be ways for players to undermine mechanics through game play. The aim of this system is that players can't simply use an alternative character to collect the bounty. Therefore making exploitation less feasible, however the direction CCP took with the current bounty system is quite shy. This is most likely a wait&see approach.

You have to understand though, and I'm sure you agree it might be beneficial to work on this together. Rather than imposing it can't be done.
Paranoid Loyd
#33 - 2015-03-05 01:22:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
We have, for much longer than you have been around, see post 9 as we have now come full circle.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-03-05 01:25:58 UTC
Privateer Cove wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Well the important points to get clear currently are:

Defining asset est.value
Defining illegal/legal bounty placement

Defining and liquidating est.value can be done by making PLEX the standard guideline for measuring bounty value.
Defining bounty placement depends on where to draw to line, it has no benefit of exploitation.

Problem solved



Asset value and PLEX prices are determined though player actions on the market. You've solved nothing.

Really, they weren't kidding when they said learn the game.


Well it is a game that allows these elements, don't interchange game play with game mechanics. There should always be ways for players to undermine mechanics through game play. The aim of this system is that players can't simply use an alternative character to collect the bounty. Therefore making exploitation less feasible, however the direction CCP took with the current bounty system is quite shy. This is most likely a wait&see approach.

You have to understand though, and I'm sure you agree it might be beneficial to work on this together. Rather than imposing it can't be done.


A bounty system is very simple: I hire someone to collect someone else's corpse. On delivery of the corpse, the bounty is paid.

A bounty system in game that is in any way profitable will exploited for maximum profit by single player if possible and by large groups of players if necessary. Again, all you have proposed is an easy way for a player to liquidize their assets without having to actually sell them with an added benefit of maintaining the item's scarcity. We're not here to undermine game mechanics, man. We're here to throttle them until they do what we want Big smile
Privateer Cove
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-03-05 01:52:26 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
We have, for much longer than you have been around, see post 9 as we have now come full circle.


Might i read your suggestions and implementations.
Privateer Cove
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-03-05 02:04:42 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Well the important points to get clear currently are:

Defining asset est.value
Defining illegal/legal bounty placement

Defining and liquidating est.value can be done by making PLEX the standard guideline for measuring bounty value.
Defining bounty placement depends on where to draw to line, it has no benefit of exploitation.

Problem solved



Asset value and PLEX prices are determined though player actions on the market. You've solved nothing.

Really, they weren't kidding when they said learn the game.


Well it is a game that allows these elements, don't interchange game play with game mechanics. There should always be ways for players to undermine mechanics through game play. The aim of this system is that players can't simply use an alternative character to collect the bounty. Therefore making exploitation less feasible, however the direction CCP took with the current bounty system is quite shy. This is most likely a wait&see approach.

You have to understand though, and I'm sure you agree it might be beneficial to work on this together. Rather than imposing it can't be done.


A bounty system is very simple: I hire someone to collect someone else's corpse. On delivery of the corpse, the bounty is paid.

A bounty system in game that is in any way profitable will exploited for maximum profit by single player if possible and by large groups of players if necessary. Again, all you have proposed is an easy way for a player to liquidize their assets without having to actually sell them with an added benefit of maintaining the item's scarcity. We're not here to undermine game mechanics, man. We're here to throttle them until they do what we want Big smile


Penalize the est.value when assets are liquified, and that problem is solved. Of course this would heavily punish people who have bounties on there heads. I'm afraid people will complain that the bounty system would become to effective, and everyone would be a bounty hunter.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-03-05 02:19:37 UTC
Privateer Cove wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Privateer Cove wrote:
Well the important points to get clear currently are:

Defining asset est.value
Defining illegal/legal bounty placement

Defining and liquidating est.value can be done by making PLEX the standard guideline for measuring bounty value.
Defining bounty placement depends on where to draw to line, it has no benefit of exploitation.

Problem solved



Asset value and PLEX prices are determined though player actions on the market. You've solved nothing.

Really, they weren't kidding when they said learn the game.


Well it is a game that allows these elements, don't interchange game play with game mechanics. There should always be ways for players to undermine mechanics through game play. The aim of this system is that players can't simply use an alternative character to collect the bounty. Therefore making exploitation less feasible, however the direction CCP took with the current bounty system is quite shy. This is most likely a wait&see approach.

You have to understand though, and I'm sure you agree it might be beneficial to work on this together. Rather than imposing it can't be done.


A bounty system is very simple: I hire someone to collect someone else's corpse. On delivery of the corpse, the bounty is paid.

A bounty system in game that is in any way profitable will exploited for maximum profit by single player if possible and by large groups of players if necessary. Again, all you have proposed is an easy way for a player to liquidize their assets without having to actually sell them with an added benefit of maintaining the item's scarcity. We're not here to undermine game mechanics, man. We're here to throttle them until they do what we want Big smile


Penalize the est.value when assets are liquified, and that problem is solved. Of course this would heavily punish people who have bounties on there heads. I'm afraid people will complain that the bounty system would become to effective, and everyone would be a bounty hunter.


No, people will just kill themselves with alts after doing what is necessary to make themselves profitable to kill. It will not be hard, and there will be no loss.

Really, learn the game.
Privateer Cove
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-03-05 02:29:34 UTC
And what is it that is necessary, if you can't provide a means to beat the system then your argument holds no value. You assume the system is beatable because previous ones have been. Since you have experience, i ask you kindly to give me valid arguments so that i may improve upon. But, if you cannot, then surely you to understand i cannot take your statement seriously.

Don't get me wrong though, we're on the same side and i applaud your patience.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-03-05 03:10:43 UTC
Privateer Cove wrote:
And what is it that is necessary, if you can't provide a means to beat the system then your argument holds no value. You assume the system is beatable because previous ones have been. Since you have experience, i ask you kindly to give me valid arguments so that i may improve upon. But, if you cannot, then surely you to understand i cannot take your statement seriously.

Don't get me wrong though, we're on the same side and i applaud your patience.


It has been blatantly explained to you how your system would be exploited and abused.

Keep in mind, the "soft" bounty system we have now is a corrected system because of player abuse that ties the bounty to a penalized asset loss.

If you need any further explanation than is already available in this thread, I have to repeat: You do not understand Eve, the players of Eve, or the nature of gameplay in Eve. You need to learn these things, and then you will easily see why this idea is a bad one.
Hill Attor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-03-05 03:38:55 UTC
Ok, let me recap this thread.

You propose something. Which is great cause the bounty system is not perfect, way from perfect.

Then Cannibal Kane (2011), Paranoid Loyd (2013), J'Poll (2010), Orlacc (2009) and Ned Thomas (2014) are all saying you are wrong... And need to play the game a little more cause you are missing a few thing...

I think you did a good move by showing your idea, but it looks like your idea is actually not so good. Just by looking the reply you got.
I think I can double my isk every week with your system. And that's from a january 2015 new eve player. I've been scamed, gank, and lost maybe 20m+.

I may even put my own "Bounty" thread soon in the Feature forum. If I do soon enough, i'll put a link in your thread so you can take a look (and discuss it here). But again, my system may have a flaw or two, need to test a lot of thing but can't right now.

Listen to the people who answer you (before me of course), learn a little more and rethink your bounty system. You will see what's wrong.

See you in eve.