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Should logistics be more accessible?
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Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#81 - 2011-12-06 18:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ottersmacker
whatever whateverson wrote:
arguing a major design choice
WoWplayers
PS: All ships has at least one good use!

a Slasher is useful because it is a construction component for a Claw/Stiletto and that's pretty much it :/

of course t2 should be more powerful and specialized, a great example of this is the scanning frigs:
a magnate has some good basic scan strength bonus.. while being a scrub-tier tech 1 frigate.
an anathema has a greater scan bonus and covops cloak & cyno.

so the tier system should not force some ships into obsolescence, but it occasionally is so.
now a Scythe has .. wait what?
oh nvm it has a use - to be a construction component for a Scimitar.

as for the "defining game mechanic" - ships have been rebalanced before and giving some ships new, actual uses is not too radical. some good example of tiers being different in variety not outright power are the new BCs (they are different but not specifically better than old ones) and battleships in general (megathron does not make the lower-tiered dominix obsolete).

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
whatever whateverson
Doomheim
#82 - 2011-12-06 20:45:14 UTC
Ottersmacker wrote:
whatever whateverson wrote:
arguing a major design choice
WoWplayers
PS: All ships has at least one good use!
blah blah blah.



You did not get it, you still don't get it, I give up.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2011-12-06 20:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
From what I understand, Op essentially wants to fly T2 logi, but doesn't want to invest the time or the ISK necessary. I'd have to disagree.

It takes at most three months to skill up for a logistics hull assuming virtually no starting skills. Considering that EVE is a long-term game, that is hardly an enormous amount of time. Furthermore, the most time-consuming prerequisite for logistics is Racial Cruiser V which, once trained, grants access to an enormous number of other T2 cruiser hulls AND makes the player better at flying T1 cruisers for that faction. Also keep in mind that skills in EVE are long-term investments that keep paying dividends years after they are obtained, since every skill required to fly a given hull makes a player better at flying that and many other hulls. Contrast with many other games where half the skills provide no benefit after the player gains a few more levels, or where character classes are locked-in.

ISK-wise, T2 logi costs are in line with the costs of other T2 cruiser hulls. If anything, logistics hulls are cheap considering how much of an impact they can have on the battlefield. Besides, a T2 logistics hull, fully fitted, costs less than a fully fitted tier-3 battleship, and even those who participate in nullsec "blob" warfare can afford to lose one or more of those per week.

From a game-design perspective, as well, players need something to work towards. If you're going to argue that skill training time impedes fun, you might as well argue that we should remove skills entirely from the game and just let everyone fly whatever they want. But then we might as well also remove ISK. After all, making players pay for ships only impedes their fun. Which would leave us with a meaningless, hollow shell of a game that is little more than pretty lights that quickly grow boring and repetitive. How many pirates here would truly enjoy hunting belt-ratting Drakes in lowsec if Drakes were given out for free?

And in my experience, those who do want to fly logistics will invest the time and ISK necessary, much as those who run healers/clerics/priests or what have you will put in the time to get the proper skills and equipment in other games. Three months is not a significant barrier, especially to those of us who come from older MMO games where it might take a year or more to get enough EXP to run a proper healing support character.

As far as tech-1 logistics hulls go, the Osprey and Auguror are fine the way they are. They are very cheap ships, which can work well if used by players who put in the time and effort to figure out how they work. But an Osprey is not a miniature Basilisk any more than a Ferox is a cheap Nighthawk. The Auguror's bonus to cap transfer range is situational, but can be invaluable in a cap-hungry fleet, although it may perhaps warrant another look. The only possibly problematic T1 logistics is the Scythe, and even its tracking link bonus might be useful in a cheap, small gang of mostly new players.

Because CCP's character count and URL parsers are still broken, will post the remainder in another post.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2011-12-06 20:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
Logistics are Overpowered

I keep seeing this allegation crop up at least once a month. Having flown almost nothing but logistics in fleets for several months, and nothing but ECM before then, I can honestly say that logistics are far from overpowered. It does take a little imagination and flexibility to counter logistics, but that goes for anything in EVE. A gang without logistics that goes up against a gang with decent logistics support head-on will probably get slaughtered, but that is the way EVE is supposed to work -- those who fight smarter will win against those who Leeroy their way into a fight. Might as well complain about fairness if you suicide a Thrasher gang into a fleet of smartbombing Tempests. Nonetheless, I will provide a brief rundown of how logistics can be effectively countered:

ArrowECM The most straightforward counter involves simply preventing logistics from locking anything. For this discussion, assume a Scimitar with a sensor strength of 33. At comparable cost and for comparable SP investment, a Falcon can get a jam strength of 14 and a range of 58+53km. That means a Falcon has approximately a 42% chance of completely shutting down our Scimitar with just one jammer every 20 seconds, a 66% chance with 2 jammers, and an 81% chance with 3 jammers. And a 3-jammer Falcon can still have three mid slots in which to fit a respectable tank. But a gang does not need to invest in a Falcon to shut down a Scimitar; a Blackbird can get a jam strength of 6 and even better range than a Falcon with semi-decent skills, which means it has a 45% of completely shutting down our Scimitar with 3 jammers at just ten percent of the Scimitar's cost.

ArrowSensor Dampeners: An even more cost-effective way of shutting down logistics involves sensor dampeners, which drastically increase lock time and reduce targeting range, and are very effective on unbonused ships. Our Scimitar has about a 2s lock time against a generic battlecruiser with sig radius of 275. One scripted sensor dampener will increase lock time to 3 seconds; two to 4.3 seconds. While the difference doesn't seem like much, in anything but a small engagement it has sometimes been the difference between survival and death for a primaried fleet member.

Even more important is the way dampeners affect targeting rage Our Scimitar has a targeting range of 75. One scripted sensor dampener will reduce targeting range to 49.5km; two will reduce it to 34.8km. And that is for an unbonused ship, which might well be a T1 frigate. So against each opposing Scimitar, bringing two ships each fitted with a sensor damp instead of that twenty-fourth warp disruptor no-one needs will force that Scimitar into range of your guns, or keep it from repping fast tackle that get even a little out of range, and otherwise make the Scimitar's life miserable, especially in a fast-moving gang.

ArrowNeutralizers: Not as effective due to their fairly short range, but force a logistics into neut range and it will cap out in less than 30 seconds. Works especially well for Scimitars and other "solo" logistics.

ArrowAlpha: Drakes and hurricanes have long been able to alpha logistics if broght in sufficient numbers. But tier-3 BCs can do the same thing in smaller numbers and thus at lower cost. See http://www.machine9.net/blog/?p=701 (Because CCP's forums can't parse the BB code that they themselves generate.) A brute-force approach, but it does not take a big blob to make logistics irrelevant. Ten Tornadoes can alpha through a Scimitar or even a Basilisk.

ArrowLogistics: Bringing your own logistics is always a very effective counter to enemy logistics, and at minimum will help balance the odds. You do not need to have the same number of logistics as the other side; merely enough to mitigate their dps. If anything, I've found that logistics can prolong an engagement and make it more interesting, especially in medium-sized fleets where otherwise ships would die in just a few seconds.

So logistics are hardly overpowered. If anything, they are quite well-balanced as a whole, both internally and relative to other classes. The usual complaints about logistics come from those who do not want to think, or even take advice freely given, but who think that they should be able to rush in and win every time regardless of what they bring. And by that logic we should make all ships exactly the same.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2011-12-07 12:21:11 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
You've got no idea what you're talking about. Logistic ships are already way too powerful.

Wanna proof? Check ally tourney rules.


By that standard, ECM is fair and balanced since they allow plenty of it.
Raneru
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#86 - 2011-12-07 13:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Raneru
I agree with the OP when it comes to the T1 logi ships. Only the exequeror and osprey have any real use as logistics ships, the Augoror and Scythe really need to have a bonus to armor and shield RR respectively.
Whether all T1 logi cruisers need their stats/bonuses altering to make them closer to the T2 variants i.e. large reps + a non gimped decent ship fitting is another matter. I'd settle for a full set of medium reps with decent range and non gimped fitting.

While there is no specific in game reward for keeping your friends alive, the gratitude you get from them should be enough Blink