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Should logistics be more accessible?
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Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-12-02 17:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lil Nippy
In most standard MMOs 'healers' or 'medics' are pretty standard and tend to make or break PvP combat. In EVE the equivalent for this PvP class would be logi, and outside of organized large scale null sec PvP logi is a semi rare sight in the universe.

Here is what I think could make logi more prevalent and popular in PvP:

- Logi is inaccessible. What I mean by this is that for the EVE newcomer and standard MMO player logi is quite untouchable. Generally most pilots cannot fly a logi until around 13-15m SP which is quite high. A price of around 120m for the T2 hull does not help either.

Solution? Change T1 logi variants (augoror, exeq, osprey,scythe) to actually perform like their T2 counterparts. While this is somewhat true for the osprey and exeq, ALL T1 logi variants should function exactly as their T2 variants albeit at a T1 (weaker) level. This alone will make 'healing' more accessible and prevalent in the PvP community which in turn creates more dynamic and sustainable fights.

- Logi is unrewarding. It is safe to say that for most PvP pilots in EVE their killboard is relatively important to them. Well, when flying logi pilots do not get much of a 'reward' for participating in PvP. This simple fact alone prevents many PvP pilots capable of flying logi from doing so at all.

Solution? While this problem is probably more of a third party killboard and poor EVE stat tracking issue, it still affects logi gameplay. Many advocate incorporating the logi pilot into the killmail of someone that they were directly repping, but this is far from perfect or effective even. And carrying a single turret or flight of light drones (which is the common practice) is both irritating and unintuitive. I think the only viable solution would be to add a "healing total" stat on killboards that will show and track the total amount of shields/armor repped with a remote repair system for a player. This gives something for logi players to gauge their performance and to show off.

- Logi is vulnerable and inferior to ECM. Before you say "but all ships are vulnerable to ECM." and "put on ECCM noob.", that is not my point with this issue.

The two main support roles in EVE are ECM and logi, however ECM has no inherent counter (other than other ECM) while logi is countered by ECM. This means ECM ships have complete control over their provided support while logi does not, therefore making it inferior. I would go as far as saying a single falcon in a small scale engagement (10-20 per side) is worth 3-4 logi.

Solution? This is more of an issue with ECM being overpowered (especially in small scale engagements) than an inherent issue with logi, however I think the most viable solution to this would be making it so that both T2 and T1 logi would be invulnerable to ECM, or at the very least raise their points. This would make it so that both ECM and logi could fulfill their support roles in a PvP engagement.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#2 - 2011-12-02 18:07:36 UTC
T1 logi ships already do function as lesser versions of the T2. What rock are you crawling out from under?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-12-02 18:14:49 UTC
Dude have you never flown spider tanking battleships into battle before.

You dont need a Logi thats just the cream and you need two of them otherwise they run out of.........
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Alara IonStorm
#4 - 2011-12-02 18:16:26 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
T1 logi ships already do function as lesser versions of the T2. What rock are you crawling out from under?

They really do not. They are terrible ships. They have no tank, barely any cap, no bonuses that increase the amount you can Rep and horrible fitting. There are only 2 of them between 4 races as well. There Bonuses are split, one of the has a mining bonus, the other has a cargo capacity bonus.

Really in any kind of PvP they die if you so much as sneeze on the and all this is backed up by the fact that they are just plain out not used.

Best way to make Logistics more accessible is to buff there fitting, slots, bonuses and capacitor. Then replace the Faction versions with ships that have Logistics bonuses. That way the logistics line is well populated.
Written Word
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-12-02 18:17:16 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
Dude have you never flown spider tanking battleships into battle before.

You dont need a Logi thats just the cream and you need two of them otherwise they run out of.........


Have you ever seen a stealth bomber dude?
Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-12-02 18:19:02 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
T1 logi ships already do function as lesser versions of the T2. What rock are you crawling out from under?


Please troll less obviously.
Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#7 - 2011-12-02 18:22:56 UTC
The absolute very last thing that small gang PVP needs is more logi!

Logi does not make PVP engagements "dynamic"; it makes it stagnant. The prevalence of logi on the battle field prevents a smaller force from inflicting ANY loses on a larger force, and makes skirmishing tactics far less valid.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-12-02 18:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
13-15mil SP? What?

Train frigate IV. (2d)
Train Cruiser V. (20d)
Train whatever pointless electronic skill logis need. (20d)
Train Logi V. (25d)
Get support skills to IV. (5-15d depending on what support skills you already have)

There, you have a nearly perfect logi in around 3 months.

Alternatively, you can just use a battleship, which is faster to train for. RR Domis are popular, as they can both rep and deal 600+ dps.

I wouldn't make logis more accessible without making other force multipliers more accessible. Why doesn't my Bellicose have a webbing bonus? Why doesn't my Arbitrator have a neuting bonus?

And yes, all ships are affected by ECM, and ewar in general. Why do you single out ECM when logis will be equally screwed by neuting, or damping?
Lili Lu
#9 - 2011-12-02 18:24:49 UTC
yes, tech I cruisers that form the basis for tech II logis are very bad. This could be remedied by scrapping the tier system on frigates, cruisers and BCs.

Then also the Amarr and Minmatar tech I logis would need a rewark on top of that because just having cap or tracking to hand out is underwhelming in relation to the other two handing out armor or shield.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-12-02 18:25:51 UTC
Quote:
yes, tech I cruisers that form the basis for tech II logis are very bad. This could be remedied by scrapping the tier system on frigates, cruisers and BCs.


I would be behind this, as it affects all ships equally, and is much needed for balancing purposes.
Alara IonStorm
#11 - 2011-12-02 18:30:16 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Why doesn't my Bellicose have a webbing bonus?

Why does no one use the Bellicose?

Cruisers in general need a rebalance around roles. The Blackbird is the only EWAR Cruiser used as such. The Arbitrator is the main Amarr combat Cruiser because the Maller(Bait) and Omen are terrible. The T1 Logi's are plain not used. There are a whole host of T1 Cruisers that are terrible do to fitting, bonuses and slot layout.

Putting Logistics on a T1 Battleship just shows that even a ship not designed for Logistics is better off then the T1 Ships who are.
Revii Lagoon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-12-02 18:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Revii Lagoon
Have you ever flown a logi on a large scale operation? Logi is probably one of the most rewarding and fun experiences I have ever done in fleets. Sure I don't get on to many kill mails unless I have a comedy gun on my scimitar, but I don't care about killboard stats. Why should you if you have fun knowing that you can win an engagement, keeping your fleet alive. Now to counter your arguments.

Lil Nippy wrote:
In most generic MMOs 'healers' or 'medics' are pretty standard and tend to make or break PvP combat. In EVE the equivalent for this PvP class would be logi, and outside of organized large scale null sec PvP logi is a semi rare in the universe.


Comparing EVE to any other MMO will not work. Any ship can fufill the role of a "medic". Haven't you ever heard of the old RR battleship fleets, or modern day triage carriers / spider tanking. Also, Incursions and wormholes also see frequent uses of logistic ships simply because they are incredibly effective at what they do. In fact, most fleets in null sec comprise of some logistic ships, anything over 10 people will most likely have some logi.

Lil Nippy wrote:
Logi is inaccessible. What I mean by this is that for the EVE newcomer and standard MMO player logi is quite untouchable. Generally most pilots cannot fly a logi until around 13-15m SP which is quite high. A price of around 120m for the T2 hull does not help either.


Why should Logi have lower requirements? An argument using 13-15m SP or money is a horrible way to base how a ship can be flown. In fact, Logistic ship requirements have the highest SP requirements out of any T2 cruiser, and it should stay that way with good reason. Would you want a newbie to EVE who knows little about how to fly in fleets be in charge of the role that keeps your fleet alive. Also, money is the WORST possible way to judge a ship on why or how it should be flown, Do not fly something you cannot afford to loose.


Lil Nippy wrote:
Logi is unrewarding. It is safe to say that for most PvP pilots in EVE their killboard is relatively important to them. Well, when flying logi pilots do not get much of a 'reward' for participating in PvP. This simple fact alone prevents many PvP pilots capable of flying logi from doing so at all.


Any person flying logistics knows this and understands that what they are doing is for the better good of their fleet rather than their own personal gain or stats. Every single person in the fleet appreciates what you do, you fulfill the most important role, and have the second hardest job in a fleet, the first being the FC. People thank you all the time, sometimes give you money, and the personal satisfaction of all this is more rewarding than any killboard stat will ever give you.

Flying a logi ship means you have to act on your own accord and judgement in a tight situation about who to rep on top of actually flying your ship and following orders. All a simple grunt has to do is follow the FC's orders and press F1.

Lil Nippy wrote:
Logi is vulnerable and inferior to ECM. Before you say "but all ships are vulnerable to ECM." and "put on ECCM noob.", that is not my point with this issue.

The two main support roles in EVE are ECM and logi, however ECM has no inherent counter (other than other ECM) while logi is countered by ECM. This means ECM ships have complete control over their provided support while logi does not, therefore making it inferior. I would go as far as saying a single falcon in a small scale engagement (10-20 per side) is worth 3-4 logi.


Simple, kill the falcon, its not like they can tank much at all, there's a reason ECM ships are almost always one of the first primary targets. Also, a falcon can only possibly jam a ship. Sure logi are vulnerable to ECM, but every ship should have some sort of counter, so this is working as intended. Bringing 3-4 logi doesn't mean an automatic win, it increases your chances of survival, but is no means any guarantee.

Lil Nippy wrote:
Solution? This is more of an issue with ECM being overpowered (especially in small scale engagements) than an inherent issue with logi, however I think the most viable solution to this would be making it so that both T2 and T1 logi would be invulnerable to ECM. This would make it so that both ECM and logi could fulfill their support roles in a PvP engagement.


What....just what....are you ********. Do you think frigates should be immune to webs as well? Or microwarp drives should not be affected by scrammers as well? Or better yet how about guns just not affecting ships and should only be useful on NPC ships.

EVERYTHING should have some sort of counter, and ECM just happens to be the one of the counters of logistic ships. Damping, Neuting, Target Painting all work on logi ships, as does it work on nearly every other ship.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2011-12-02 19:51:10 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:
outside of organized large scale null sec PvP logi is a semi rare in the universe.
Not really no. Anywhere where they might make a difference, they show up in large numbers. What you're describing is just the situation where they make a lot of difference, so consequently you see a lot of them there.
Quote:
- Logi is inaccessible. What I mean by this is that for the EVE newcomer and standard MMO player logi is quite untouchable.
Not really. You get them about the same time as you get the rest of the T2 cruisers — before the end of your first year. If you want to train the role, you can do that in a number of other ships in the mean-time. What makes them “untouchable” for new players is that you would never want to trust that role to a newbie. It has nothing to do with SP and everything to do with group cohesion and understanding of game mechanics.
Quote:
- Logi is unrewarding. It is safe to say that for most PvP pilots in EVE their killboard is relatively important to them.
The problem is that you assume that “rewarding” is a universal constant. It is not. Logistics is highly rewarding for logistics people. No solution is really needed.
Quote:
The two main support roles in EVE are ECM and logi, however ECM has no inherent counter (other than other ECM) while logi is countered by ECM.
ECM has the same inherent counter as everything else: guns. A single Falcon vs. 3–4 logis means in a small-scale engagement the Falcon dies. Horribly. And then the fleet the Falcon is supposed to support dies. Oh, and as you mention, this has nothing to do with the prevalence of logistics.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-12-02 19:56:56 UTC
The biggest problem with logi is that it is extremely boring to fly.

In generic mmo terms you are basically playing a healer that never has any mana issues and has one single healing spell.
supersexysucker
Uber Awesome Fantastico Awesomeness Group
#15 - 2011-12-02 19:58:31 UTC
Let's just leave it at NO.

Why even have t2? After all they all take a long time to get into...

Welcome to eve, go play another game or htfu.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#16 - 2011-12-02 19:59:15 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:
In most generic MMOs 'healers' or 'medics' are pretty standard

(wall of text)

Solution?


Your solution seems to be: turn EVE into a generic MMO.

No thanks.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-12-02 20:00:56 UTC
I don't quite agree with the OP. You can do "logi" in any ship. The difference is the bonuses you get from a true logistics ship. Having that logistics ship is like finding that uber wand or robe that gives you the bonuses to healing. That should take longer and be harder to attain.

Example...my Tengu is not a logi ship but we use it for logi in WH groups.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-12-02 20:04:21 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I don't quite agree with the OP. You can do "logi" in any ship. The difference is the bonuses you get from a true logistics ship. Having that logistics ship is like finding that uber wand or robe that gives you the bonuses to healing. That should take longer and be harder to attain.

Example...my Tengu is not a logi ship but we use it for logi in WH groups.


I am not really trying to argue the effectiveness or merit of T2 logi, only that there should be a more accessible and effective form of T1 logi and that logi as a whole could use some tweaks to make it more popular.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#19 - 2011-12-02 20:06:22 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:
In most generic MMOs 'healers' or 'medics' are pretty standard and tend to make or break PvP combat.


Get Out.

Lil Nippy wrote:
Logi is unrewarding.


Door's that way. I love my scimi.

Lil Nippy wrote:
I think the only viable solution would be to add a "healing total" stat on killboards that will show and track the total amount of shields/armor repped with a remote repair system for a player. This gives something for logi players to gauge their performance and to show off.


I show off by my fleet not dying.

Lil Nippy wrote:
I think the most viable solution to this would be making it so that both T2 and T1 logi would be invulnerable to ECM.


This was a horrible post and you should feel horrible for posting it.
Vyl Vit
#20 - 2011-12-02 20:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
"Healers" are easy enough to implement. Trouble with this game is, everybody wants to be a killer. I don't know. It seems to attract that ilk.

Edit: On second thought...were you wishing for a Concord version of the Red Cross?

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
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