Assembly Hall

Just bumping this idea because I believe it would satisfy both sides of this debate.

The underlying problem with implants in this game is pod killing/saving mechanics are stupid.

In empire killing/saving a pod is a matter of how good your internet connection is. In null sec/wh its just a matter of whether there is a bubble or not.

In either case there is no real game play or skill involved in saving/killing a pod. Yet allot hangs in the balance!

This proposal has some merit because it makes it so there can't be as much hanging in the balance of this terrible mechanic.

A better solution would be for ccp to make pod killing/saving mechanics better.

I would also like to point out that your training time as a new player is much different than when your an older player. As a new player, you primary train skills that are between the 1x to 5x training times. Older players are in a far different situation. We have to train skills in the 8x to 14x range. Newer players don't need the +5 learning implants as much as older players do. If they have to train in +3 implants for a while, it really isn't a big deal. They don't have to sit through 52 day skills when they want something to level 5.
I can understand helping out the new players a bit. Though in truth, I don't believe eliminating implants is going to help them. Yes, they'll train faster but I doubt there will be any more motivation to pvp because of it. What I have really noticed in this game, is that in most cases, the ones who want to pvp, do. The ones who don't, won't. No amount of elimination toward those expenses, short of making pvp risk free, will persuade them otherwise.
And that, is something we cannot do.

The average train time on a new players skill is like a day. You wanna give them natural +5's to drop it by an hour or so per skill? Not worth it. The way its set up works fine, you learn the game as you train and by the time you can fly the bigger and better ships you are more skilled w/ skill points and your personal ability to fly. Throw a noob into a 60 mil s/p toon just means he's going to be losing tech 3's instead of frigates.

The implants are as useless as the learning skills were before. Exactly the same issue. Supported.

Let's take a closer look at new characters.

New characters are the only ones who can use the only attribute enhancing booster in the game. Not long ago CCP gave them out free with new accounts. You can still get them in boxed editions of Eve for the cost of a months subscription. Combined with +3s (which takes minuets to train), they get effective +6 implants for 35 days. You can even go for +4s in a reasonable amount of time for +7 effectiveness (bonus: access to various combat implants). Add a third neural remap (up until Jan. 5th), and new players are in a prime position.

Remove all of these bonuses and new players will train more slowly for the first critical month*. After that, two +3s or +4s are not expensive. Add to that the low cost of low SP clones and now implants are even more affordable to younger players.

The real concern, which few are outright saying, is +5s. Those are costly**. A young player really cannot afford to lose those, but they can afford them (one at a time) and can keep them in a highsec jump clone (or station bound). Many corps have standings that give instant access to jump clones. Even still, many argue they are not worth the cost, even in highsec, because they do not make that big of a difference. Take two +4s vs. nothing and you see a jump. Go from there to two +5s and you only notice it when training high multiplier skills to 5.

For older players, you see more complaints about the price of medical clones.

* In light of extending trials to two months, I think extending the booster to two months or more is worth considering.
** I recommended various cost control methods and proposals in previous posts.

The question becomes:

Is it in the best interest of a new player to be putting them into the biggest ships possible in the least amount of time ?

I say no, it isn't in their best interest.

The faster you put new players into bigger ships, the worse off they are going to be. A large part of playing this game is learning how to fly your ship. Just because you can sit in it, doesn't mean you can fly it. A new player who joins a corperation right out of the gate has people to guide them along but lets face the facts. There are a lot of players who don't join a corperation for months. Those players often have no one to guide them along. If we're looking to help new players, then we need to think what is best for all players. Not just the ones helping you pvp.

Max SP/hour is not always a good thing. Especially when you have no idea what your doing.

Nah. If a 6 month old toon wants to fly a perfect titan, they are just going to go to the character bazaar and buy a toon that CAN fly one. At least it will have the support skills trained. (I would hope anyway.)

What I'm talking about here are new toons being able to get into battleships and flying horribly fit Ravens that have 300dps tanks for pve. I have seen a lot of players flying around in battleships with less than 6M sp when they don't have anywhere near the support skills to be flying those ships.

A new player dumps all the isk they have into one battleship and then loses it for whatever reason because they are in truth unable to fly it. Then they have no money to buy another ship. That is more of a detractor than not training as fast as people you've never seen. We need to come up with a better way to teach people to fit their ships. Either that or a way to bang it into new players heads that they need to train support skills BEFORE they get into a bigger ships, not after.

I honestly don't think I agree with your first sentence.

I don't see EVE as a race to get the most SP. I really don't care if someone has more SP than I do, so long as I can train at a good speed. If someone of comparable age to my toon has more SP than me because they sit in +5 implants all day, it really doesn't matter to me. I personally don't sit in +5s. I have a clone with them but I generally only use it when I know I'm not going to be playing for at least 24 hours. That way it doesn't interfere with something critical.

However, I don't see it as a punishment. The reason being, is that I choose not to sit in them. Everyone in this game has that choice. The same goes for High-grade slave implants and Crystals. Those are far more expensive than +5 learning implants are. If you get podded in 0.0 and lose them, your out far more isk than if you lost +5 implants. So people generally choose not to fly with them in, whilst in 0.0. From my understanding of your first post and from the proposal spoken of, it should be the same thing. However, no one has made mention that I recall about the removal of such implants. Why ?

I'll tell you why. They don't have a +5 training modifier on them. The way this game is set up, you should be completely fine flying with +5 implants or High-Grades while in lowsec. 0.0 is where the problem arises for people. Which means that MANY pvpers use both set of implants. A fair number I would assume. So in truth, not all "risk takers" have to deal with this "punishment", as you call it.

There is also the fact that if someone in highsec trains in +5 implants and eventually passes you in SP because your only using +3 implants, it really doesn't matter. If a pilot who is only interested in PvE is in a corp that ends up getting war dec'd, he is going to get massacred if he fights. He will have little to no concept of PvP and against a single skilled pilot in a T3 or HAC, will lose his Golem/Paladin.

High SP doesn't really mean a whole lot if you don't know how to PvP and fit your ships for it. There are plenty of pilots out there that have over 70M SP and still don't have their armor compensation skills trained to level 5. So I don't think its safe to say that not training in +5 implants is a punishment of any kind. Its about being able to play the game well in the area of expertise you choose to apply yourself.

I think the point is that Learning implants tend to restrict gameplay. One person may only need one clone if all they had were standard hardwirings to worry about, and for those that PvP, they are at an unfair disadvantage when compared with those that do not.

Overall, Learning implants, or the requirement for them, inhibit gameplay and prevent players from taking risks they might otherwise. Either you sacrifice training times to do what you want, or you sacrifice the ability to do so without podding clones that aren't intended for that purpose.

Having 24 h timers on jump clones is just an extension of this.