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[Proposal] Get rid of learning implants.
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Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2011-12-19 21:57:12 UTC
supported, it's stupid, I don't even care about implants anymore when it means I can't even go on alphafleets because I might lose a set of +5s (losing a set of those actually hurts because you get laughed at)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#242 - 2011-12-19 22:28:50 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
It was bad enough that the learning skills got removed


lol

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#243 - 2011-12-20 08:19:39 UTC
I've decided that since I broke my yellow crayon in second grade, that no one can use yellow crayons. If I can't use a yellow crayon no one else should be able to. I'd buy a new one but I'm too cheap and i'm scared that it will break again.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#244 - 2011-12-20 08:30:00 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
I've decided that since I broke my yellow crayon in second grade, that no one can use yellow crayons. If I can't use a yellow crayon no one else should be able to. I'd buy a new one but I'm too cheap and i'm scared that it will break again.


i've decided that you're an idiot

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#245 - 2011-12-20 08:37:26 UTC
I can't see why you fail to discuss the facets of the proposal without making retarded metaphors to crayons and primary school. I figure it's easier to chalk it up to the autism spectrum, v0v

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#246 - 2011-12-20 08:44:48 UTC
Andski wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
It was bad enough that the learning skills got removed


lol


I actually have to agree that removing the learning skills from the game was to the betterment of the game and the new player. It took months to train those skills and even though a lot of us suffered through it, it was a major detractor to the game from a new player perspective. Now that those have been removed, everyone begins the game with what was once considered "max learning skills".

However, I fail to see a logical argument as to why learning implants should be removed. I've seen a lot of posts here but as of yet still haven't seen anything valid. I've certainly seen no flaw in the game mechanics presented.

I honestly don't see any new players being awed into the game just because learning implants have gone away. Every single "new player" i've known in this game that has quit eve, has quit for reasons relating to highsec. Things relating to the lack of mission variety. Mining is boring. Things along those lines. I have never heard someone say they quit the game in the first month because I trained faster than they did.

I have however, seen quite a few older players E-rage in local because they got podded and their implants are on a killmail now.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#247 - 2011-12-20 08:46:39 UTC
Andski wrote:
I can't see why you fail to discuss the facets of the proposal without making retarded metaphors to crayons and primary school. I figure it's easier to chalk it up to the autism spectrum, v0v


You don't like crayons ?
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#248 - 2011-12-20 09:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Fear of podding (due to loss of implants) is a major reason why noobs are afraid to leave high-sec. They can easily change to a cheap ship but can't change to a cheap clone because they don't have jumpclones. And as a noob, learning faster is really appealing so they'll try to get the best implants they can as soon as possible. Arguing that this mechanic is NOT especially bad for new players is a rather narrow-minded position. And yes, noobs have implants from day one if they do their tutorial missions, which they should.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#249 - 2011-12-20 09:46:16 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
I actually have to agree that removing the learning skills from the game was to the betterment of the game and the new player. It took months to train those skills and even though a lot of us suffered through it, it was a major detractor to the game from a new player perspective. Now that those have been removed, everyone begins the game with what was once considered "max learning skills".

However, I fail to see a logical argument as to why learning implants should be removed. I've seen a lot of posts here but as of yet still haven't seen anything valid. I've certainly seen no flaw in the game mechanics presented.
Everything that could be said about learning skills could be said about implants.

Look, somebody is doing is right above me. "You must train as fast as possible and that is an inconvenience because XYZ, so give noobs skills/implants for free".

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#250 - 2011-12-20 09:53:30 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
I actually have to agree that removing the learning skills from the game was to the betterment of the game and the new player. It took months to train those skills and even though a lot of us suffered through it, it was a major detractor to the game from a new player perspective. Now that those have been removed, everyone begins the game with what was once considered "max learning skills".

However, I fail to see a logical argument as to why learning implants should be removed. I've seen a lot of posts here but as of yet still haven't seen anything valid. I've certainly seen no flaw in the game mechanics presented.
Everything that could be said about learning skills could be said about implants.

Look, somebody is doing is right above me. "You must train as fast as possible and that is an inconvenience because XYZ, so give noobs skills/implants for free".


on the other hand, if you had your way those "noobs" wouldn't fly anything other than rifters for their first year

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#251 - 2011-12-20 10:00:42 UTC
Andski wrote:
on the other hand, if you had your way those "noobs" wouldn't fly anything other than rifters for their first year
I joined before there was an enhanced NPE and I was running POSes in 0.0 and getting involved in alliance fleet battles in my first year, so if you know of any noobs who managed to be stuck in rifters for a year with the current NPE, tell them from me that they fail terribly and should go back to WoW.

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Orisa Medeem
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2011-12-20 14:39:29 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I'm sympathetic to the idea behind this, but I won't easily support ideas where the solution to a problem is removing that aspect entirely from the game just to get rid of the issue. I would simply prefer to see a fix to the issue, since you have to address the same issue repeating with hardwirings anyway. That fix would be to allow easier access to jump clones and allowing local clone switching without any timers.

How I vision it is to basicly make jump clone access an easy, basic facet of the game. Easiest solution for this is propably to allow people to simply buy jump clones from the market and allow transferring them(generic jump clone template -item) as a normal item, so they are easy to move around and get. When you activate one it becomes one of your jumpclones and an implanted jump clone would function like a rigged ship, since they work in a very similar fashion. So basicly if you repack it, you lose the implants and it stops being your jump clone. If the goal is to have everyone have access to them, make it so you get one jumpclone and the required skill from a jumpclone tutorial.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if learning implants would go away, but as i said it would still leave the issue with having wrong hardwirings intact. That issue needs to be solved too and any solution to that issue will also solve the learning implant issue at the same time, since it's basicly the same problem. So once you have a fix for the hardwiring issue, you've also succesfully removed the need to remove learning implants.


Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?

Well, just throwing some ideas here. Not sure this is a good one. It's still like trying to have the best of both worlds, low risk and high reward.

:sand:  over  :awesome:
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#253 - 2011-12-20 16:43:49 UTC
Quote:
Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?


If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method.
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2011-12-20 16:54:38 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Quote:
Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?


If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method.


Must have some delay, otherwise having perfect hardwiring for your fittings become kinda mandatory in small scale encounters.

:sand:  over  :awesome:
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#255 - 2011-12-20 16:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Quote:
Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?


If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method.


Do you have a source for this claim?

Anway what does it matter what the original intent was? I'm sure many things in this game work out ok even if they are not used as intended.

edit: this seems like a less disruptive option than simply removing all learning implants from the game. If the only objection to it was the functional fixedness one expressed above then I think it would be a contender. Sadly I think there are other problems with reducing the timer to 4 hours.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2011-12-20 17:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Cearain wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Quote:
Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?


If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method.


Do you have a source for this claim?


I'm not sure if it was ever explicitly said by CCP, but it's a fairly safe assumption if you know a bit of EVE history.

It was the response to people self-destructing their pods so they could reach their destination more quickly. It was common practice back then. It seems silly today, but warp to zero, jump bridges, capital ships, covert cloaks didn't exist and traveling through 0.0 was slow and painful. Red Moon Rising introduced jump clones as means of 'rapid fleet deployment'. Implant switching was probably an unintended but acceptable side-effect.

On a different note, it is well worth remembering how old EVE is and how much it has changed. Some things just don't make much sense in today's EVE and others never did. Not everybody realizes this, instead making the assumption that everything is working as intended and makes sense.

I would also support removal of attributes entirely for that matter, replacing it with a fixed sp/day. The attribute system we have seems like it was originally intended to promote uniqueness between characters but it just doesn't work out. EVE has evolved along a totally different path. All it does nowadays is reward year-long remaps and inflexibility.
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2011-12-20 18:07:39 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
I would also support removal of attributes entirely for that matter, replacing it with a fixed sp/day. The attribute system we have seems like it was originally intended to promote uniqueness between characters but it just doesn't work out. EVE has evolved along a totally different path. All it does nowadays is reward year-long remaps and inflexibility.


You see, there is only one reason left why I don't support the complete removal of attributes (which is way more radical than the thread OP): there are a lot of people out there that wants more options to actively influence how fast their skill training goes.

There is some truth in these claims. After all it is your toon and you should be able to control him to be better at what you want him to (skill training, in this case).

But that may also be a reflex of people who played too much traditional RPG and MMO, where you are supposed to make insane ammounts of grinding to become high level.

But we are getting off-topic here. The thread is about how the implants end up excluding people from the PvP content in the long run, even if they don't realize it and even if it was due their decisions all along.

:sand:  over  :awesome:
Amarr Champine
Doomheim
#258 - 2011-12-20 18:44:48 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Fear of podding (due to loss of implants) is a major reason why noobs are afraid to leave high-sec. They can easily change to a cheap ship but can't change to a cheap clone because they don't have jumpclones. And as a noob, learning faster is really appealing so they'll try to get the best implants they can as soon as possible. Arguing that this mechanic is NOT especially bad for new players is a rather narrow-minded position. And yes, noobs have implants from day one if they do their tutorial missions, which they should.



This is just silly...You want a jumpclone? Then get your standings up. No MMO should offer everything to you at once, in every MMO you have to grind in some way. In this case, you grind your standing up to get a jumpclone. There are also other alternatives to getting jumpclones. Any null sec group worth their salt should have a Rorq that will provide you with a jumpclone without the standings issue. It seems to me that you guys want to go from A-Z by skipping the rest of the alphabet. Video games and especially RPGs are about becoming stronger/working towards a better all around toon. Hell, even first person shooters are this way nowadays. (BF3, Modern Warfare) Seriously....If you don't want to actually play the game and want to be all powerful from the start, then why bother?
Amarr Champine
Doomheim
#259 - 2011-12-20 18:49:41 UTC
Killstealing wrote:
supported, it's stupid, I don't even care about implants anymore when it means I can't even go on alphafleets because I might lose a set of +5s (losing a set of those actually hurts because you get laughed at)



Is this a joke? You been playing eve for two days?

Get a jumpclone, there, problem solved. Otherwise stay the heck out of null or risk it. You try to not fail, have a proper scout and not get podded. Spent lots of time flying around 6v in crystals mind you and never got podded once. We always had a scout and alternative warp to avoid bubbles. Try to fail alil less and this wont be such a problem.
Amarr Champine
Doomheim
#260 - 2011-12-20 18:50:43 UTC
Killstealing wrote:
supported, it's stupid, I don't even care about implants anymore when it means I can't even go on alphafleets because I might lose a set of +5s (losing a set of those actually hurts because you get laughed at)



Is this a joke? You been playing eve for two days?

Get a jumpclone, there, problem solved. Otherwise stay the heck out of null or risk it. You try to not fail, have a proper scout and not get podded. Spent lots of time flying around and never got podded once. We always had a scout and alternative warp to avoid bubbles. Try to fail alil less and this wont be such a problem.