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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1841 - 2015-03-04 22:38:56 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Oddly, as the TCU, IHUB and station are now all separate, you do not need to claim Sol to hold a system. Keep everyone else out with ships, just like if there was no Sov. Many have asked "Why claim Sov?" If you don't think there is a valid reason, then don't do it! Just occupy the system.



Actually, the reason to hold sov in the systems you live in is pretty simple: the sov index helps make it take longer for enemies to RF your ihub and station. Is it a great reason? No, but it is a reason.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1842 - 2015-03-04 22:40:03 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
People want fights, not boring chases of hard to catch, low value ships. Think of how annoying warp stabbed farmers are in FW.

Why is the Entosis thing not a deployable structure? Rather than fitting it on a ship, why not make it like one of the new deployables? Cost it around 50/100m, and have the attackers defend it until it has produced a timer on the TCU/Ihub/Station. Once it has, it can be scooped and re-used, but it could give the defenders something concrete to attack.

Avoidance is already way too dominant a strategy in this game, don't make it even more powerful. Right now all the costs are put on the defender. Make the attacker ante up, and actually have to commit rather than just abusing fast things.


The attacker forces the defender to actually undock and come on grid to defend...then the attacker gets to choose whether to engage or move on.

If the attacker wants to fight it's a guaranteed fight or an RF timer for the defender if they shirk their responsibilities.



But this again makes avoidance the dominant, boring strategy. People in this system undock and use an Entosis to counter mine? Okay I move along, switch structures, or go log off in a safe and then come back and start again. Avoidance and annoyance seem far too effective with no cost.

There is a slight opportunity cost of danger, but there needs to be a non zero cost for just trying to flip every thing that can be.
The cost is the manhours spent 'trolling' in these ceptors. If people are doing it purely for the 'troll' factor of making people undock then tittering like schoolgirls over to the next system then it sounds about as fun as cancer, I certainly wouldn't be signing up to waste my time in a fleet that does that.

But using them to start fights or RF systems to have fights in at a later date definitely has more appeal.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#1843 - 2015-03-04 22:40:03 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Speed tanking at 120km doesn't work so well because your angular velocity drops as you get further from the origin.

These 5km/s trollceptors orbitting at 120km are only moving around the central point at

5/120x2 = 0.02 rad/s

edit: doh my maths, fixed


As I stated earlier in this thread, time to dust that sniper Rokh.

A interceptor can keep a lock at 120 km?


a malediction with 2 sensor boosters (range script), two T2 ionic rigs, being RSBed by another malediction (range script) can lock out to 200km

the pair go 4.5km/s mwding while cap stable and are <2s align (3x istab, overdrive)

this is before implants or gang bonuses
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1844 - 2015-03-04 22:41:35 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
People want fights, not boring chases of hard to catch, low value ships. Think of how annoying warp stabbed farmers are in FW.

Why is the Entosis thing not a deployable structure? Rather than fitting it on a ship, why not make it like one of the new deployables? Cost it around 50/100m, and have the attackers defend it until it has produced a timer on the TCU/Ihub/Station. Once it has, it can be scooped and re-used, but it could give the defenders something concrete to attack.

Avoidance is already way too dominant a strategy in this game, don't make it even more powerful. Right now all the costs are put on the defender. Make the attacker ante up, and actually have to commit rather than just abusing fast things.


The attacker forces the defender to actually undock and come on grid to defend...then the attacker gets to choose whether to engage or move on.

If the attacker wants to fight it's a guaranteed fight or an RF timer for the defender if they shirk their responsibilities.



But this again makes avoidance the dominant, boring strategy. People in this system undock and use an Entosis to counter mine? Okay I move along, switch structures, or go log off in a safe and then come back and start again. Avoidance and annoyance seem far too effective with no cost.

There is a slight opportunity cost of danger, but there needs to be a non zero cost for just trying to flip every thing that can be.
The cost is the manhours spent 'trolling' in these ceptors. If people are doing it purely for the 'troll' factor of making people undock then tittering like schoolgirls over to the next system then it sounds about as fun as cancer, I certainly wouldn't be signing up to waste my time in a fleet that does that.

But using them to start fights or RF systems to have fights in at a later date definitely has more appeal.

You don't have to.

Eventually they will just not appear, so you take the sov without a fight, just a bunch of interceptors and a can-do attitude.

(Numbers helps with both of these)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1845 - 2015-03-04 22:41:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
[quote=Baneken]A interceptor can keep a lock at 120 km?


a malediction with 2 sensor boosters (range script), two T2 ionic rigs, being RSBed by another malediction (range script) can lock out to 200km

the pair go 4.5km/s mwding while cap stable and are <2s align (3x istab, overdrive)

this is before implants or gang bonuses

You can't be RSB'd whilst using an Entosis link.

edit: You also just dropped your angular velocity to 0.01 rad/s

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1846 - 2015-03-04 22:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Speed tanking at 120km doesn't work so well because your angular velocity drops as you get further from the origin.

These 5km/s trollceptors orbitting at 120km are only moving around the central point at

5/120x2 = 0.02 rad/s

edit: doh my maths, fixed


As I stated earlier in this thread, time to dust that sniper Rokh.

A interceptor can keep a lock at 120 km?


a malediction with 2 sensor boosters (range script), two T2 ionic rigs, being RSBed by another malediction (range script) can lock out to 200km

the pair go 4.5km/s mwding while cap stable and are <2s align (3x istab, overdrive)

this is before implants or gang bonuses

OK. Shows what I know about fitting. But remember, you cannot warp with a running Etonsis link. You have to wait for it to end its cycle. That makes the 2 second align a little less useful.
Also there is this:
"Activating an Entosis Link also causes ships to become extremely vulnerable for the duration of the module’s cycle: the equipped ship cannot warp, dock, jump or receive remote assistance until the cycle completes."
I'm not sure if that extends to RSBs.
Now all the defender need to is bring a faster ship and run you down.

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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1847 - 2015-03-04 22:44:15 UTC
Gorgof Intake wrote:
CFC has always overstated the effectiveness of Siege Fleets and the result on enemy (ie my bro's) morale. Ive never met anyone who was frustrated at siege fleet. We just thought it was lame.

Do you know what is annoying though? Having proposed a much better (yet similar) sov mechanic that would solve/ abate so much of this splurgethread and having not a single person in CCP acknowledge its existence :(


Well, since I've never been on the receiving end of siegefleet, I'll take your word for it. And yeah, that'd be annoying to pretty much anyone.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#1848 - 2015-03-04 22:45:22 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Speed tanking at 120km doesn't work so well because your angular velocity drops as you get further from the origin.

These 5km/s trollceptors orbitting at 120km are only moving around the central point at

5/120x2 = 0.02 rad/s

edit: doh my maths, fixed


As I stated earlier in this thread, time to dust that sniper Rokh.

A interceptor can keep a lock at 120 km?


a malediction with 2 sensor boosters (range script), two T2 ionic rigs, being RSBed by another malediction (range script) can lock out to 200km

the pair go 4.5km/s mwding while cap stable and are <2s align (3x istab, overdrive)

this is before implants or gang bonuses

OK. Shows what I know about fitting. But remember, you cannot warp with a running Etonsis link. You have to wait for it to end its cycle. That makes the 2 second align a little less useful.

that's fine, just burn off grid
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1849 - 2015-03-04 22:45:53 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
OK. Shows what I know about fitting. But remember, you cannot warp with a running Etonsis link. You have to wait for it to end its cycle. That makes the 2 second align a little less useful.


I'd imagine the sub 2-second align is to get through camps, really.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1850 - 2015-03-04 22:46:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
The cost is the manhours spent 'trolling' in these ceptors. If people are doing it purely for the 'troll' factor of making people undock then tittering like schoolgirls over to the next system then it sounds about as fun as cancer, I certainly wouldn't be signing up to waste my time in a fleet that does that.

But using them to start fights or RF systems to have fights in at a later date definitely has more appeal.

You don't have to.

Eventually they will just not appear, so you take the sov without a fight, just a bunch of interceptors and a can-do attitude.

(Numbers helps with both of these)

Sounds like absolutely valid tactics for a sov hearts and minds war :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#1851 - 2015-03-04 22:47:59 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
OK. Shows what I know about fitting. But remember, you cannot warp with a running Etonsis link. You have to wait for it to end its cycle. That makes the 2 second align a little less useful.


I'd imagine the sub 2-second align is to get through camps, really.

exactly

i guess you could refit to something more interesting once you got to the system but that seems like a lot of effort to me
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#1852 - 2015-03-04 22:49:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

You don't have to.

Eventually they will just not appear, so you take the sov without a fight, just a bunch of interceptors and a can-do attitude.

(Numbers helps with both of these)

Whaaa!!!??? You mean people will give up space they don't want to defend? GET OUT OF HERE.

Offense gets alot harder the closer you are to somebody's home. Defense is much easier when you don't have to defend many systems.

The troll-ceptors will be able to clean up the unpopulated areas, which will flip back and forth quite often.

The big fleets will knock out the home constellations.
El'Grimm
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1853 - 2015-03-04 22:49:42 UTC
Phase 3, well it better come with free BJ's if it intends to counter the fact that holding sov basically means come farm/annoy/grief sov holders, as its my job now.

With the ease of harassment, and the danger of loosing your sov for lols to any of the major super blocs who can and will tear everything down for fun, it means no-one is gonna look long term for sov investment. This will spiral downwards and become easier as non bloc entities loose everything, and new holders simply wont be able to afford to upgrade or even see the point at all.

No industrialist in there right mind is going to want to set up in nullsov with these changes. BPO's kept in null, nope, these changes are gonna finally bring some life to lowsec :)

It's been pointed out that this is FW 2.0, yeah and you know what it's like in FW space, tons of griefers who fight for no side looking for a skirmish, no in depth game play, just cheap pointless pvp, ie what you can get in every other bloody game. If FW is anything to compare this too, and it should be, then most of null will become inhabited by people who don't care for sov at all.

We all know what EVE is like, if someone can troll they will, relentlessly. If these changes even remotely promoted use by people who actually want to gain sov, they would be fantastic, in reality all this will do is make holding sov be the content generators that trolls always wanted. I am not putting all my efforts into holding sov, so that every attacker on a whim can have fun and everything I have to do in return, both costs me more time and money than any attacker will ever have to fork out. The risk reward factor in attacking someones sov, compared to holding sov is gonna be laughable.

And small alliances, oh I'm sure ccp will love the km's that will be produced over this to put on a graph and say see it worked, but the isk needed to take sov is going to vastly outweigh that which is needed to make another loose sov, ie there is zero balance in this equation.

Anyone else see the obvious correlation that these ideas primarily stem from someone who is known for small skirmishes, and zero inclination to the game-play that is wanted from the thousands that are in blocs?

And finally... where exactly are all these FC's to command these split forces going to come from? They simply dont exist, FC burnout is more common than ceo/leadership burnout, and this system for sov holders is going to be a 4 hours a day non stop shitfest for the FC's.

My honest prediction, if this rolls out in June, game will break on the 4th July holiday weekend, because god forbid anyone takes a few days holiday in this new scheme, specially not a holiday based around one TZ.

nb. I am from provi, one of the most populated industrialized player owned regions of space in eve, these changes should make me happy. Everything about these changes looks like it should be aimed at how our little corner of null works, ie were not sprawled out over multiple regions, were highly concentrated in terms of players per system, and we have a high degree of industry and activity. I should be happy, but I see this seriously affecting the game for the detriment of thousands of player not just me and my allies.

tl/dr Just compare the risk/reward/time of these two. Holding sov, vs attacking someones sov. Its not comparable, and thus this new system is broken beyond belief.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1854 - 2015-03-04 22:49:45 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
. If people are doing it purely for the 'troll' factor of making people undock then tittering like schoolgirls over to the next system then it sounds about as fun as cancer, I certainly wouldn't be signing up to waste my time in a fleet that does that.


That's the problem. Harassment as it looks now appears to be the best strategy. Breaking their armies is impossible, so break their wills. While, yes, that's one way to win a war, we are looking for fun gameplay here. Put some onus on the attacker.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Devi Loches
Dream Endeavor
Mildy Unprofessional
#1855 - 2015-03-04 22:52:37 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Speed tanking at 120km doesn't work so well because your angular velocity drops as you get further from the origin.

These 5km/s trollceptors orbitting at 120km are only moving around the central point at

5/120x2 = 0.02 rad/s

edit: doh my maths, fixed


As I stated earlier in this thread, time to dust that sniper Rokh.

A interceptor can keep a lock at 120 km?


a malediction with 2 sensor boosters (range script), two T2 ionic rigs, being RSBed by another malediction (range script) can lock out to 200km

the pair go 4.5km/s mwding while cap stable and are <2s align (3x istab, overdrive)

this is before implants or gang bonuses

OK. Shows what I know about fitting. But remember, you cannot warp with a running Etonsis link. You have to wait for it to end its cycle. That makes the 2 second align a little less useful.
Also there is this:
"Activating an Entosis Link also causes ships to become extremely vulnerable for the duration of the module’s cycle: the equipped ship cannot warp, dock, jump or receive remote assistance until the cycle completes."
I'm not sure if that extends to RSBs.
Now all the defender need to is bring a faster ship and run you down.


Basically, that means just changing the meta from Ishtars and Tengus to Interceptor races.
BlitZ Kotare
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#1856 - 2015-03-04 22:55:28 UTC
To preface, I haven't read the rest of this threadnaught. You ccp employees that actually have the job of wading through this pile of blahhh have my sympathy.

Comments about the new system:

- Forces more diffuse conflicts, it won't be possible for you to park your 30,000 member coalition in one system and just afk empire things from there effectively. I like that.

- The Attacker in New System risks very, very little. In Dominion sov the attacker must at least "risk" his SBU's and give the attacker ample time to respond to his attack attempt. This attempt can be made during any part of the day, encouraging alliances and coalitions to have good timezone coverage. The Attacker in New System can easily "spam" sov attacks using cheap, interdiction immune ships (interceptors) that are basically invulnerable en route to their attack point and it's incredibly likely some of his attacks will succeed, again at very little risk. (Please, please remove interdiction nullification. It's a dumb mechanic that reduced conflict for no actual gameplay gain).

- TZ locking in New System for all structures isn't good. Make it selectable for every structure independently, and it takes effect immediately (or on the next reinforcement timer). The downside to this is that you have to fly around physically to each structure to set it (just like now) so your time-to-live isn't some artificial 96 hour thing, it's based on player effort.

- Important sov structures in New System should have more than one reinforcement timer. Perhaps the # of timers should be dependent on the indexes, so instead of the defender getting a duration bonus to their defense, they should instead get a second defense attempt?

- The Industry index has been broken forever. It's nearly impossible to get to V and keep it there, and it's super easy to afk camp it back down. The Industry index should include things like items manufactured in station and POS, moon mining, # of market transactions taking place, etc.

- Attackers and Defenders in New System should be able do to something in the Defenders space during the RF cycle to influence the outcome of the final fight. Having the indexes fix at the time of RF isn't a good idea, it encourages everyone to dock up and do nothing until the timer. Active mechanics > passive ones.

- The disparity in New System between the Attackers capture bonus and the Defenders max capture bonus is too high in terms of capture time.

Devi Loches
Dream Endeavor
Mildy Unprofessional
#1857 - 2015-03-04 22:56:09 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
. If people are doing it purely for the 'troll' factor of making people undock then tittering like schoolgirls over to the next system then it sounds about as fun as cancer, I certainly wouldn't be signing up to waste my time in a fleet that does that.


That's the problem. Harassment as it looks now appears to be the best strategy. Breaking their armies is impossible, so break their wills. While, yes, that's one way to win a war, we are looking for fun gameplay here. Put some onus on the attacker.


It'll be harassment till either you take sov, or defenders bring something out worth dropping a blackops on. Long live the hotdrop meta.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1858 - 2015-03-04 22:57:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

-The wrong 'focus' (it's like it's trying to turn null sec , which is organized fleet space, into low sec, which is small gang space, CCP doesn't seem to understand that many null sec types are 'soldier' personalities that tent to like big fleets rather than the 'gladiator/pugilist' personalities that inhabit wormhole and low sec space and like small gangs and solo)


You seem to identify "organized fleet space" with "4000 pilot tidi fleets". Bottom line is the tech can't handle that and never will. They said as much in their blog. We can wish it would, but it can't, so we need something different.

What they are trying to do with this is maintain the idea of "organized fleet space" by giving massive advantages to anyone who can coordinate and control multiple large, simultaneous fleets across constellations in a fairly narrow time window. The very essence of this mechanic is to promote multi-pronged, highly coordinated attack and defense with multi-composition fleets. The alliance that can field multiple 250-man fleets in tight coordination across several attacks, with defense on standby, in a 4 hour period is going to win. The alliance that can plan and coordinate the softening of target system indices with black ops and skirmish harassment days and weeks before invading a region will win. The alliance that can maintain the industry and logistics to keep subcap fleets supplied on ALL front lines, or the caps/bridge network in place to move subcaps where they need to go, will win. This all feels like "organized fleet space" to me.

Harassment ops might be small gang, but any serious attempt to E-link a structure or win a control node contest and actually establish new sov against a prepared opposing alliance are going to be fleet battles with hundreds if not thousands of participating pilots. This is not small gang warfare.

The funny thing is that while that is not the NORM in FW, when this level of coordination DOES happen it is extremely effective and steamrolls the opposing militia until total warzone control is established. There's no reason to think this won't be the norm in nullsec where alliances have a lot more incentive and existing structure available to make this happen regularly, rather than the ragtag state of FW where it only happens once in a while.

Somewhere in this thread was probably the most succinct summary of how this change will affect null alliances: "We're gonna need a lot more FC's". Wish I could find it again :)
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1859 - 2015-03-04 22:57:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
BlitZ Kotare wrote:
- Attackers and Defenders in New System should be able do to something in the Defenders space during the RF cycle to influence the outcome of the final fight. Having the indexes fix at the time of RF isn't a good idea, it encourages everyone to dock up and do nothing until the timer. Active mechanics > passive ones.
Disrupt their PvE in the days/weeks/months building upto the attack in order to lower their indices before RFing the system perhaps?

I hear afk cloakies do wonders for this.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1860 - 2015-03-04 22:58:57 UTC
On the entire interceptor thing: If it really does become a big issue, a simple change would be:

"Activating an Entosis Link also causes ships to become extremely vulnerable for the duration of the module’s cycle: the equipped ship cannot warp, MICROWARP, MICROJUMP, dock, jump or receive remote assistance until the cycle completes."

New idea added in caps. Its not as limiting as being stuck in place, but my guess is it's enough.

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