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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#941 - 2015-03-04 01:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Onslaughtor
I think the only problem I see is the prime time. But its not in the idea but in the suggested implementation. It should be based on corp. That way the whole alliance can help but the corp who's system it is is the main contestant.

So the prime time hours are based on corp and not alliance, but the whole alliance can help as is currently suggested. In this way the corp living in the system is more important.


TLDR: make prime time a crop thing

]

After some consideration I would like to change my previous position. Go with the alliance prime time to see how it all goes and if it doesn't seem to work I'm sure you will change it.
Migui X'hyrrn
No More Dramas Only Llamas
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished
#942 - 2015-03-04 01:05:08 UTC
I see a fundamental problem in the sov revamp and is that we are having it in small pieces. They have a lot of work behind and I won't deny that but you can't take significative data and analyze based on a situation where you are half way to the end of the project.

Phoebe left us with a horrible sov system and a horrible way of traveling. How comes CCP thinks that this will encourage people taking the effort in grinding structures? No one will move a finger until everything is figured out.

This system is more dynamic and has a lot of potential but as of today, it feels like a ton of effort to have exactly what. What are the benefits of the so called localism and sov occupancy? You just have more people piled up because you need good indexes but how this people is going to have a steady income, how alliances are going to be able to fund their activities and whatnot.

You can't circumvent the metagame and people will do as much as they can to keep their status quo untouched.

Lets be real. No one has 40k friends because they love friendship. You need to get your **** in order and feel that you are safe, that you can comfortably escalate a fight if needed. You need friends to help you when someone else knocks at your door . Otherwise you just sit and watch big guys destroying your stuff at their will. This will keep happening no matter how fancy the "capture the flag" is. People will still have allies, and powers will still be there, the big picture isn't likely going to change much.

Ok now lets talk about how I'm going to stockpile 4k nerds in a couple of constellations without having an aneurysm over destroyed MTU's. No, better don't talk about that.

Lets talk about grinding a sov that is worth the effort. Lets talk about having sov that makes the risk worth it. I foresee a future where truesec, moon goo, minerals, industry and capital ships are rebalanced. But until then, we are forced to play with a 25% of the picture and we are forced to take conclussions based on that. Which will lead to false conclussions.

In September we will be wondering huge coalitions are still a thing.

Since we lost the war versus the CFC, drama has been the major conflict driver in New Eden. You can't expect a huge coalition to collapse to give content to the rest of EVE. The idea behind making more small fights is cool and all, but meanwhile we speak about HOW we take the sov, the alliance leaders are wondering WHY we are doing that. Whats the purpose if it will mean a lot of extra work for that little return?

Vast empty regions that are held because of their moons are already a thing. Big entities will let little guys hold their sov. But god forgives them if they come after their R64s and such. It will be as it is right now. Nothing will essentially change as we will adapt to anything CCP comes up with.

If CCP wants 0.0 to change, to be diversified, big, healthy with PVP and PVE then you need to provide that. In no particular order. You need to provide a steady income source for your guys WHILE you allow small gang pvp in that territory. A bit difficult, eh? You need to provide alliances with passive income to do their alliance stuff because the floor between entities with trillions in their wallets and the rest is massive. You need as well to improve local production and harvesting of resources. All of this in a 0.0 like Catch? Our members struggle to make money here because there are hostiles everywhere, and it is a ****** region in terms of PVE. Go to the north to see AFK ishtars. Go to the east to see dumb renters ratting in supers, etc.

I am eager to see what this comes up to. But at this point, as of today, I see a change in how we are going to play the game of sov, but i don't see the mighty return, the risk vs reward, the encourage to settle down huge wars that have impact on the media. As I see things now, and I would like to be wrong, nothing is going to change at all.

And I wish I could help to change it.
Talbrys Narentyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#943 - 2015-03-04 01:06:09 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
All they're doing is making it even more aids to take a system, and practically impossible to do anything outside of your own TZ.

All you need is a cloud of interceptors with the t2 (250km range one) loaded up with sebos and a mwd and orbit far enough away so you can't smartbomb the blob and keep traversal up. Get a few fleets of these (only need 30 or so duders in each), load in some benny hill music and glhf.

It's not so much you can't kill the interceptors, as much as killing a single fleet of 30 interceptors before 10-40 minutes is a pain in the ****. Now look at killing 10 fleets of them reinforcing all your **** in a region and this mechanic is insanely annoying and most of the targets will get reinforced anyway.

This strategy also favors the larger alliances in that the smaller ones won't be able to chase down the masses of intys the larger ones can throw at a region so I don't get why so many of these small alliances are looking forward to this thinking they will be able to hold space.

From the other devblog" We are well aware that Nullsec empires have mastered the strategy of weaponizing their opponent’s boredom" so now we'll give you a way to weaponize your opponent's frustration. This will lead to quicker burn out than blueballing.

Did ANYONE read the part of the blog where they said you can prevent a takeover of your structure with a friendly Entosis link?!

please people, read first, think second, and post last.


Edit: And for those who keep saying "well you can stop their progress by putting your own sov lazor on it" are ********. Then it just becomes a battle of who is willing to stay logged on longer. The only way this could possibly work is if it was a cruiser size and above. If it can be put on an inty it's the end of sov warfare and the beginning of sov trolling.
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#944 - 2015-03-04 01:07:24 UTC
Wrote a few responses earlier today and came to a realization.

Every time they do a major dev blgo in the last 2 years basically I find myself liking the game less and less. I also know im one of many who feel this way. You would think that sometime in the last 2 years CCP could have made a major change that I liked but doesn't seem like it. (im not quitting the game, not yet at least, still pretty addicted + 2 many friends), but if a large part of the player population feels the same way I do it will not bode well for the future of nullsec and to a larger whole the future of eve.

Sov changes were ALWAYS going to be contentious, but the jist of the changes seem to suggest that CCP didnt really listen to very much of anything the existing null leadership said, which is extremely disappointing as we were your focus group that had a pretty good feel fo the pulse of the issue. I hope CCP can wade through this, and re imagine alto of whats going on here.
McDarila
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#945 - 2015-03-04 01:07:25 UTC
One question did you think this through at all...

What null sec power block would be willing to field 1000 interceptors(crusers, size does not matter) with a 20 million isk mod in any time zone. And go reinforce an entire region for the luls, in just a few hours.

Directed at the NPC null sec residents where do you think the power blocks would move to if even I see this going on. Region on farm from NPC null hope you like you new 4 to 10 thousand not blue residents.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#946 - 2015-03-04 01:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
Edit: And for those who keep saying "well you can stop their progress by putting your own sov lazor on it" are ********. Then it just becomes a battle of who is willing to stay logged on longer. The only way this could possibly work is if it was a cruiser size and above. If it can be put on an inty it's the end of sov warfare and the beginning of sov trolling.

Put your own lazer on it, hold ground until a friendly gallente or caldari ewar boat can come and stop him locking the structure = reset his timer and get you another 2 minutes closer to bedtime.

Stalemate over once someone with some sense arrives from either side...and it forces a fight or retreat from your opponent on that structure.

in fact, just fly a damn kitsune to 0, EWAR the inty, use one of your highslots for a link. Game over inty, come fight or f-off :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Talbrys Narentyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#947 - 2015-03-04 01:09:14 UTC
McDarila wrote:
One question did you think this through at all...

What null sec power block would be willing to field 1000 interceptors(crusers, size does not matter) with a 20 million isk mod in any time zone. And go reinforce an entire region for the luls, in just a few hours.

Directed at the NPC null sec residents where do you think the power blocks would move to if even I see this going on. Region on farm from NPC null hope you like you new 4 to 10 thousand not blue residents.


I really hope I'm misreading your post. I think I just read a CFC member wondering who would troll for the luls using massed numbers in cheap ships.
Buzzsaw Blade
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#948 - 2015-03-04 01:09:55 UTC
CCP this is some great stuff you guys have going here. Please don't cave to the big power blocks, I can only speculate why they have the need to hold such vast areas of space or what happens to all the isk that they make from their renal empires, however it is clear that it has nothing to do with content creation.

The only thing I can think of that could be a potential problem is cloaky AFK camping, this can be easily fixed by adding a cycle timer to the module, forcing the cloaked player to reactivate the cloak every x amount of time, and if they are AFK it gives the inhabitants of that system a fighting chance to scan down the camper and destroy his ship. Right now cloaky campers have no risk versus a lot of reward of griefing the inhabitants of the system being camped which is not what EVE is about as it is a game of RISK versus REWARD.

That's my 2 cents and you don't have to like it.
Talbrys Narentyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#949 - 2015-03-04 01:10:49 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
Edit: And for those who keep saying "well you can stop their progress by putting your own sov lazor on it" are ********. Then it just becomes a battle of who is willing to stay logged on longer. The only way this could possibly work is if it was a cruiser size and above. If it can be put on an inty it's the end of sov warfare and the beginning of sov trolling.

Put your own lazer on it, hold ground until a friendly gallente or caldari ewar boat can come and stop him locking the structure = reset his timer and get you another 2 minutes closer to bedtime or come within range of a fight.

Stalemate over once someone with some sense arrives.


Anyone who would bring a single inty for this job is bad and should feel bad. A cloud of 30+ interceptors would all be using their thingies so jamming out a few wouldn't make a difference.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#950 - 2015-03-04 01:12:09 UTC
I suspect this is a bit of a soft reset on the part of CCP.

All the objections we have have merit, but I think we need to see this from the larger picture of needing to shake up null from the clutches of monolithic blocs.

Yes, in the long run organization and perseverance will prevail, but the immediate effect of making sov change this laughably easy is that large areas of 0.0 will switch hands, often many times.

It sucks if you have invested a lot of time and effort into the upgrade of your systems, it sucks if you have a large cap fleet and still lose sov to a bunch of tenacious inty pilots, and it sucks that you now find anomaly grinding as a replacement to sov structure grinding. This will appeal to some, and kill the game for others. It's a hell of a gamble, but what with the state of 0.0, something drastic was needed to soft reset the board.

For that at least, we can give CCP kudos.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#951 - 2015-03-04 01:12:15 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
All they're doing is making it even more aids to take a system, and practically impossible to do anything outside of your own TZ.

All you need is a cloud of interceptors with the t2 (250km range one) loaded up with sebos and a mwd and orbit far enough away so you can't smartbomb the blob and keep traversal up. Get a few fleets of these (only need 30 or so duders in each), load in some benny hill music and glhf.

It's not so much you can't kill the interceptors, as much as killing a single fleet of 30 interceptors before 10-40 minutes is a pain in the ****. Now look at killing 10 fleets of them reinforcing all your **** in a region and this mechanic is insanely annoying and most of the targets will get reinforced anyway.

This strategy also favors the larger alliances in that the smaller ones won't be able to chase down the masses of intys the larger ones can throw at a region so I don't get why so many of these small alliances are looking forward to this thinking they will be able to hold space.

From the other devblog" We are well aware that Nullsec empires have mastered the strategy of weaponizing their opponent’s boredom" so now we'll give you a way to weaponize your opponent's frustration. This will lead to quicker burn out than blueballing.

Did ANYONE read the part of the blog where they said you can prevent a takeover of your structure with a friendly Entosis link?!

please people, read first, think second, and post last.



Yup, but it seems that the idea of living in the system and actually launching a ship is repugnant to some........

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Talbrys Narentyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#952 - 2015-03-04 01:12:19 UTC
Buzzsaw Blade wrote:
CCP this is some great stuff you guys have going here. Please don't cave to the big power blocks, I can only speculate why they have the need to hold such vast areas of space or what happens to all the isk that they make from their renal empires, however it is clear that it has nothing to do with content creation.

The only thing I can think of that could be a potential problem is cloaky AFK camping, this can be easily fixed by adding a cycle timer to the module, forcing the cloaked player to reactivate the cloak every x amount of time, and if they are AFK it gives the inhabitants of that system a fighting chance to scan down the camper and destroy his ship. Right now cloaky campers have no risk versus a lot of reward of griefing the inhabitants of the system being camped which is not what EVE is about as it is a game of RISK versus REWARD.

That's my 2 cents and you don't have to like it.


Not sure if you're being serious but we don't necessarily want to hold vast quantities of space. We just want sov wars to be fun and meaningful.
ZombieKillerKatie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#953 - 2015-03-04 01:13:28 UTC
Amazing Job CCP., these changes look awesome. Please don't cave!!Big smile
Jade Greenfire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#954 - 2015-03-04 01:14:48 UTC
Question:
Will the Sov requirement for Capital Production will be changing also ?

Siobhan MacLeary
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#955 - 2015-03-04 01:14:54 UTC
Lister Vindaloo wrote:
Just to re-iterate, Prime Time is the worst, most divisive idea I've ever seen, the only thing AU TZ players had to offer corps was our ability to act out of TZ, now we have been relegated to logistics and ratting, this is disgraceful.

This entire prime time system is only going to segregate people, there is no way to make a declared 'safe/vulnerable' time work, just add a greater level of randomness to when the timers will end and allow the attacker/defenders to figure out the best way to deal with the timers.

If you go ahead with this prime time nonsense, can AU TZ have jove space so we can have our own little bit of sov space to fight over?


I think AUTZ will still find use from the out-of-TZ shenanigans. If your alliance has enemies mostly online during EU or US, but you have a strong AU presence, then the best way to make you guys useful is to set your alliance's primetime to AU TZ.

This essentially makes AU TZ the defensive line while EU or US is all about dat offensive.

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Talbrys Narentyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#956 - 2015-03-04 01:16:02 UTC
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
Lister Vindaloo wrote:
Just to re-iterate, Prime Time is the worst, most divisive idea I've ever seen, the only thing AU TZ players had to offer corps was our ability to act out of TZ, now we have been relegated to logistics and ratting, this is disgraceful.

This entire prime time system is only going to segregate people, there is no way to make a declared 'safe/vulnerable' time work, just add a greater level of randomness to when the timers will end and allow the attacker/defenders to figure out the best way to deal with the timers.

If you go ahead with this prime time nonsense, can AU TZ have jove space so we can have our own little bit of sov space to fight over?


I think AUTZ will still find use from the out-of-TZ shenanigans. If your alliance has enemies mostly online during EU or US, but you have a strong AU presence, then the best way to make you guys useful is to set your alliance's primetime to AU TZ.

This essentially makes AU TZ the defensive line while EU or US is all about dat offensive.


But this is all dependent on who you live by. If you are surrounded by AUTZ the others are obsolete.
Zip Slings
Southern Cross Monopoly
Flying Dangerous
#957 - 2015-03-04 01:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Zip Slings
To address what seem to be the most common complaints people are having...

1. "OMG Interceptors will just win forever and stuff!"

First, no interceptor can target out to 250km. Stop saying this nonsense. A single fleet of Rapid Light Caracals will deal with an Interceptor gang.

Second, "If two or more Entosis Links belonging to different “sides” are operational on the same structure at the same time, neither will have any effect and all capture will be paused. This remains true even if one side has more Links operational on the structure than the other side." Did you actually read the thing? Interceptors can't put out the DPS to hold a field. That isn't changing.

Third, to those saying that 1000 interceptors can just win mode forever. Yes. No ****. If you can't field 300 Caracals to spread around the capture Points while they spread their Interceptors the same way then you lose. Surprise surprise there are still advantages to having more people. AKA: Working as intended.

2. "T1 frigate gangs will just reinforce entire regions! Oh no!"

First, there is a warning built in to alert alliances when a Link has started to reinforce one of their structures.

Second, working as ******* intended. If you are so far out of the way from the space that some T1 frigate is reinforcing that you can't flash form a ceptor gang to kill it AND you don't have anyone actyally living in the area then you don't need it and are going to lose it. "Undefended space is easily taken space." Herp derp.

3. "Capitals are dead! Long live capitals!"

First, nothing about this SOV system prevents situations from escalating. For example, your TFI fleets are just moving about the constellation steamrolling the Moas of your enemy. Stuff and things happen and two of the TFI fleets get caught on a gate in bubbles with MJDs on cooldown and the defenders see their advantage and they drop blap dreads to clear out two of the 5 fleets taking their space. Attackers counterdrop supers. Bada-bing bada boom. Supercap slugfest. Relax. (And ignore my obvious lack of caring about how realistic TFIs vs Moas is. Shutup)

Second, all other times that capitals get caught and killed by other capitals ever.

4. "The 'Primetime' Mechanic"

This one is the only one that has some actual merit behind it. There is something to be said for "off" time pilots. So...

My suggested change:


We can keep the proposed 4 hour vulnerability window. Having Alliances have to be most vigilant in their own stated prime time makes sense. BUT the idea that an alliance should be completely invulnerable to SOV attack for the other 20 hours is ridiculous.

Instead, have the other 20 hours work on a sliding scale. 4 hours before and after "primetime," that alliance's structures require Entosis Links to cycle for twice as long as during "primetime." Four hours before and after that, three times as long. Etc. These are numbers off the top of my head and could be thought out more and normalized etc. Either way this makes SOV vulnerable round the clock but MOST vulnerable during primetime and least vulnerable in off times.

The only thing I can't figure out is how to manage when things would come out of reinforce depending on when it was reinforced. Discuss.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#958 - 2015-03-04 01:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
Edit: And for those who keep saying "well you can stop their progress by putting your own sov lazor on it" are ********. Then it just becomes a battle of who is willing to stay logged on longer. The only way this could possibly work is if it was a cruiser size and above. If it can be put on an inty it's the end of sov warfare and the beginning of sov trolling.

Put your own lazer on it, hold ground until a friendly gallente or caldari ewar boat can come and stop him locking the structure = reset his timer and get you another 2 minutes closer to bedtime or come within range of a fight.

Stalemate over once someone with some sense arrives.


Anyone who would bring a single inty for this job is bad and should feel bad. A cloud of 30+ interceptors would all be using their thingies so jamming out a few wouldn't make a difference.

Well it's eve, 1 player shouldn't be able to beat 30...

These mythical intys...are they align fit or lock range fit?
I mean a 2s align inty probably doesn't have the lockrange to kite at 100+km (haven't EFT'd it, just a hunch) and a fit that can lock out to 100+km probably can't align in 2 seconds...

If they're not able to orbit at 100km+ because of align speed reqs then web or scram range bonused ships will make short work of them. If they're able to orbit at 100km+ then just chuck EWAR on them and then kill them when they try to jump to the next system because they can't align in 2s.

edit: after 4 hours of fun and games you can go back to ratting.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Buzzsaw Blade
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#959 - 2015-03-04 01:21:37 UTC
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
Buzzsaw Blade wrote:
CCP this is some great stuff you guys have going here. Please don't cave to the big power blocks, I can only speculate why they have the need to hold such vast areas of space or what happens to all the isk that they make from their renal empires, however it is clear that it has nothing to do with content creation.

The only thing I can think of that could be a potential problem is cloaky AFK camping, this can be easily fixed by adding a cycle timer to the module, forcing the cloaked player to reactivate the cloak every x amount of time, and if they are AFK it gives the inhabitants of that system a fighting chance to scan down the camper and destroy his ship. Right now cloaky campers have no risk versus a lot of reward of griefing the inhabitants of the system being camped which is not what EVE is about as it is a game of RISK versus REWARD.

That's my 2 cents and you don't have to like it.


Not sure if you're being serious but we don't necessarily want to hold vast quantities of space. We just want sov wars to be fun and meaningful.



You see that's why I added this little disclaimer, just for special little people like you, it says " That's my 2 cents and you don't have to like it"

On a side note, please tell me more about how you're looking out for our best interest and making sov war a lot meaningful, you have ZERO credibility in that statement being a member of the alliance that has the biggest rental empire.

Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#960 - 2015-03-04 01:22:04 UTC
Aya Nova wrote:
Capqu wrote:
buff sov benefits to compensate

+20% mining yield per industry index
+20% anomaly cash yield per military index

or some ****

i say this as someone who has never lived in sov and has harassed lots and lots, there needs to be a buff to people living there if there's gonna be such a huge buff to me and mine


i mean why wouldnt you just do lvl 4s and mine in highsec even more than people do already if sov is getting harder to hold


Some kind of boost would be good. The income from null mining vs hisec is laughably low. Extra yeld isn't really an answer though as it would increase drag tedium / overflow ore hold.

I'd prefer to see new types of ore added that only appear in L5 systems (or scale in commonality in L3-5 systems) which refine into massively larger amounts. (ex. a Super-Duper Trit that yelds 3x as much as regular Trit, but is only present in L5 industry systems.



100% chance for faction spawn on anomaly in military 5 systems with low drop rate to boost isk/hour? hmmm i take it every day