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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#921 - 2015-03-04 00:47:05 UTC
First thing i can say is I can not really agree wth "prime time" thing. But if your prime is different then someone else.....well you can still gurilla warfare their space to reduce their SOV until your people start waking upto not only defend but take the fight to them for command nodes.

Now as to the massive amount of non-strategic thinking out there.
Titans....could have a use as Fleet Carriers if properly supported....they have a HUGE Maintenance Bay, an ok Fleet Hangar.

Will they die unsupported? probably.....but then you mix in Carriers and SuperCarrieers and all their support ships(subcaps) for the projection of power and taking those Command nodes or actual attacks on structures.

Have to get past your blob mentatlity and start planning and thinking tactically and strategically now. I believe that is the point CCP is making here....NULL Sov is about Empire Building and creating/mainting a true player based Goverment in this game.

You can defend areas where your peeps live much easier than some out of the way place you own that no one lives in. Not to mention I dont think CCP is fond of the Renter Meta in the game......they want to give the lower guys a chance to take that Sov for themselves.
Now the question(s) is......Do you have the resources and infrastructure to deend against an uprising and also be prepared in other areas as well at the same time.

Sounds to me that some Nullers need to start fleshing out real Combat units.....built around specific tactics and being permanently based in places an alliance wishes to keep. With that being said....over all though i will most likely not live in nullsec again with any of my toons or my main.....I Like these changes and look forward to th possibilty of conflict that ensue from them.

Remember: If your not willing to use it and DEFEND it actively then you do not desreve it.

If a renter uprising occurs....sure someone like NCdot or PL or what not can get butthurt and go smash them to retake the SOV.....the question should be Why? At this point....a Renter should be asking why do we need to pay these overstuffed turkeys rent when we can just own our system ourselves? These changes will make this possible....for those of strategic thinking anyway.
Frigates or dessies....get some anti-frg dessies or cruisers....drone boats what not to kill them.....bring the Battlecruisers, T3's, and Battlships. Keep Caps and Supercaps on standby or use very few of them. Time to make real Fleets it seems to me and get your heads out of your Afocal point of Contact. War is not easy and it never should be. Glad to see these proposed changes by CCP already shaking Nullers up.

Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#922 - 2015-03-04 00:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Cr Turist wrote:
Why would anyone use capitals after this patch i think is the real question.

Not gonna tell you, but I do offer a fair amount of ISK for some dreads you may or may not be setting up for a firesale during this ruckus.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#923 - 2015-03-04 00:50:04 UTC
Align Planet1 wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
You people mean to tell me that, in all your infinite loophole finding, game breaking ways of abusing mechanics, it's completely impossible to kill a piece of paper going 11km/s? Surely some warp bubbles to shut off the MWD and some well timed bombs would make short work of an Interceptor?


Bubbles shut off MWD's?

News to me.


no but linked true sansha scrams on a lechasis doo.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Degalo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#924 - 2015-03-04 00:50:07 UTC
Love it.

A lot of people are whining about the prime time affecting their ability to play the game, but in reality, it only affects their ability to participate in a defensive sov war (if they are active outside their alliance prime time).

There's no reason to believe that all content following the patch will be exclusively sov warfare - there will always be plenty of content for those who look for it. Roams, offensive ops on another alliance's sov, pos warfare, etc.

"Yeah, but FC, I don't want to go 40 jumps to find someone to shoot. What do?"

Maybe you should reconsider your goals and whether they line up with an alliance that still wants to pretend everything is exactly the same as it was in Dominion sov. Reconsider your blue lists. If it takes 40 jumps to get out of blue space, then that's your (alliance's) problem, not a problem of the game design. Reset your neighbors. Shoot them. Find a wh to another region. Shoot them. Shoot the people in the wh.

There is plenty of content out there - but you may have to step outside your triage/titan bridge range and not rely on 30,000 blues to get to the best of it.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#925 - 2015-03-04 00:51:13 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cr Turist wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Brother Mercury wrote:
This patch makes it nearly worthless (save for POS BASH) to log in supers or dreads. j

....


FYI: Supers can use gates now.
FYI: Part of the new Sov System requires being able to move around. You can do this slowly in a heavy fleet (with capital support), or quickly in a more agile, but weaker fleet. Adapt or die.
FYI: Supers were designed to be anti-capital ships, not I-win buttons against all fleets.



Why would anyone use capitals after this patch i think is the real question.


BS gangs use Triage Carriers for support.
Enemy escalates with dreads to kill triage.
You re-escalate with supers to kill capitals...

Dreads will also be used to RF POS's.

There is a use, they just won't be used as much for capturing stations and destroying IHUBs.


ok still goes back to what i said before but instead of saying capitals lets say battleships.
being apart of a major alliance i can tell you in 0.0 you very very rarely see battleship fleets. mostly because of bombers but thats a whole other ball of ccp fix this.

i think the end of this is that you have people in CCP that think capitals shouldn't be around (looking at your CCP Rise) and are now taking steps to make them less and less useful by taking away the key roles.

alot of people love subcap pvp me being one of them but capitals and super-capitals have fans to. you wanna sit in lowsec and play with your cepter that's fine but when u come to 0.0 you should have to worry about titans, supers, and other caps.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#926 - 2015-03-04 00:51:25 UTC
Proton Stars wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
You people mean to tell me that, in all your infinite loophole finding, game breaking ways of abusing mechanics, it's completely impossible to kill a piece of paper going 11km/s? Surely some warp bubbles to shut off the MWD and some well timed bombs would make short work of an Interceptor?


Ceptors can't get bubbled you fool.


Also no one is suggesting 1 ceptors to rule them all but instead 30-40 of them to re-enforce a whole region in roughly 40mins

And they can be countered by someone just undocking and sitting at zero in an atron with it's own link - or at least force them to engage in a fight at which point they can't just kite like crazy - assuming of course that the space is actually used by the inhabitants and they can locally source a pvp group to deal with 30-40 interceptors.

Now if the group is spread far and wide and doesn't have locally sourced PvPers but requires defence by big daddy to come from X number of jumps, then yeah they're screwed

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#927 - 2015-03-04 00:52:52 UTC
needs destructible stations
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#928 - 2015-03-04 00:53:11 UTC
I think stations services should be hackable during non prime time... and prime time should be based on occupancy.... you dont actually live in the system its pretty much always vulnerable... if you have maxed out occupancy on that said system then you get the 4 hour window.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#929 - 2015-03-04 00:57:25 UTC
Sieonigh wrote:
S3ND3TH wrote:
Aryndel Vyst wrote:
HEY LETS MAKE SOV EASIER TO TAKE FROM LARGE ENTITIES BUT GIVE NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER TO THE RESIDENTS.

Do you want everyone to do high sec incursions or something?


~content creation~


goon tears are by far the sweetest tears



i cant wait to fill my cup with FA's




Red Solo cup, I fill you up
Let's have a party, let's have a party
I love you red Solo cup, I lift you up,
Proceed to party, proceed to party
mr dumpface
Doomheim
#930 - 2015-03-04 00:58:32 UTC
Zaporozh wrote:
Love most of these changes however this Prime Time Timer needs to go away. Its going to make Multi TZ alliance be useless since the timers will only come out at one time.
Entosis link needs to be a siege No reps, No moving, No ability to triage or siege. As well as make it very easy to see which ship is running the mod on the structure maybe even have it yell in local the name of the person like the ESS.



wow have you guys been given a script??

every nc poster has been saying the exact same phrase almost word for word
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#931 - 2015-03-04 00:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
UNLEASH THE PROCTwisted

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Zuel Aaoiric
Obsidian Oracle
#932 - 2015-03-04 00:58:36 UTC
I love it when CCP is willing to make some bold moves. It needs revitalization out side of the also much needed bugs and interface work they have been soully concentrating on over the last years since Crucible came out.

I have a concern...

Ever since the Walking in Stations fiasco, we have seen a new direction for Eve... one that has adopted a more main stream feel. Once upon a time Eve was a bold move to incorporate real world harshness in a thrilling unforgiving world...

Now it feels more and more like an arcade game... Where once we had the reality if we wanted something in Eve it would take real time and work and logistics; now we are introducing unexplained explosions of sovereignty structures and unrealistic Command Node anomalies.

I see the fun in this direction and I don't want to discourage it, but if we are not careful CCP will be taking the game where we owned power, space, and influence and making it into a money machine theme park. It has been dumbed down with each release - replacing realism and hard work with gimmicky arcade fun. We have enough arcade games out there. Don't slay the lone wolf CCP!

I don't mean to kill the idea, but lets make it something that will work in the Realistic Wild West setting we have enjoyed for years prior. How about we keep the race, for Command Node anomalies in essence, but make it something of a race to ignite sovereignty structures that add to each sides bonuses...

We could have a structure that controls the local chat, one that enhances targeting time, one that provides a mobile lock on ships like the one concord uses for felons. How about we give structures that allows for bonuses like the wormholes enjoy (while allied ships are in range). We could introduce siege type warfare by creating structures of shields in space with layered tactical advantage available to both sides to deploy.

Once we have sufficient structures to command the tech of a system we can then overload and command the IHub and TCU and ultimately take sovereignty.

To meat sovereignty reality there can be no question as to who won the war. If the other side has not been driven out they shouldn't loose.

I like the idea of using Entosis Link units but I think it would be much more effective if you have to suffer the consequences of not being able to warp - than you should also enjoy the enhanced remote power of the structure as well.
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#933 - 2015-03-04 00:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Brother Mercury wrote:
This patch makes it nearly worthless (save for POS BASH) to log in supers or dreads. j

Let's see what some fun scenarios will happen if you attempt to use supercaps and capitals in this new sov:

Scenario 1:

Attacker comes and starts entosis link on structure. Want to use your caps to defend against the initial entosis link? Nope, never-mind too slow, you'll never be able to get there in the minutes it takes to reinforce, and even if you do get there in time and your alliance drops a cap fleet on grid near the attacker's target structure -- JUST KIDDING -- the attackers were entosis linking a bait structure, the structure they really wanted to reinforce was in another constellation. Have fun trying to come and stop this one with your caps*Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.s and half your fleet (read: supers and titans) can't gate jump. Congratulations you've just wasted an hour of your life moving a capital fleet and then waiting for space aids to go away.

Scenario 2:

Your structure is reinforced and it is now in the "command node" part of the new sov mechanics. Your alliance has prepared though and has two moderate size sub-cap fleets in addition to a good size supercap/cap fleet to help capture the nodes. Your FC finds the first node first and your subcap fleet gets on grid only to find the attackers have arrived first. It's a close fight so your alliance calls for 1/2 the capital fleet to jump in. As soon as the enemy sees the capitals land, they turn tail with minimal loses and head to the next command node two jumps away. Your capital ships *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. and your supercaps can't jump gates, but you have to send your sub-caps regardless or you'll lose the next node. Now your supercap/capital fleet is sitting, without subcap support, in the first command node essentially doing nothing while they wait for their space aids to go away.

It's OK your FC says: we have more capitals and another subcap group. Great! So your fleet gets to the next node but the attackers have large numbers so you are forced again to drop the rest of your capitals/supercaps to guarantee that you'll hold the command node. When the enemy attackers see your second capital fleet land, they again immediately "LOL" in local and go to the next node with their entire force.

Now your alliance has two split capital groups with no or little subcap support (because you need to compete for the other nodes) sitting in space with their space aids. You might say: "so what, your now have won a whopping 2 combat nodes man!" But, meanwhile the attackers are loling around the constellation going to the next node with all their forces still intact and with no capitals (still potentially in reserve) and don't give a flying f*ck about your two capital groups because there are EIGHT more nodes to take and they can just LOL out and peace if you bring your big guns.


You can take the fundamentals of these scenarios and slightly change them, but the impacts on supercap and capital use is the same: what is the point of using supercaps or dreads? If there are always at least 10 command nodes (with the potential of there being many more) why even bother? What logical attacker or defender would even bother trying to use supercaps to defend 1 or 2 nodes when there's 8 more to mess with and dropping your supercaps on any 1 or 2 nodes would leave them in an exposed postion.

I dont know how to fix it but there NEEDS to be a valid reason/opportunities to use supercaps and dreads and titans.


You're ignoring (maybe not ware) of the fact, that defenders always capture command nodes at the minimal time (10 min), while attackers get the defense-delay (up to x4!). Plus, as long as the defender has at least one ship with E-link in range, on grid, not ECM'ed or damped, the attacker doesn't get any progress. Capping a command node as a defender will always take between 12 and 20 minutes of uncontestet capture time (one cycle prep time plus 10 min actual capture time). A Capital with T1 E-link would take 30 min, but who in his right mind would deny the shiny capital the T2 version of the module? Due to occupancy defensive boni, the attacker will always be at a time disadvantage.

What's stopping you as the defender from distributing your caps and supers all over the constellation, instead of the 2 fleets you mentioned? (how big can a constellation be? 6-8 systems?) How many caps and supers does one need to pose a serious headache to any fleet without capitals?
Talbrys Narentyr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#934 - 2015-03-04 00:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Talbrys Narentyr
All they're doing is making it even more aids to take a system, and practically impossible to do anything outside of your own TZ.

All you need is a cloud of interceptors with the t2 (250km range one) loaded up with sebos and a mwd and orbit far enough away so you can't smartbomb the blob and keep traversal up. Get a few fleets of these (only need 30 or so duders in each), load in some benny hill music and glhf.

It's not so much you can't kill the interceptors, as much as killing a single fleet of 30 interceptors before 10-40 minutes is a pain in the ****. Now look at killing 10 fleets of them reinforcing all your **** in a region and this mechanic is insanely annoying and most of the targets will get reinforced anyway.

This strategy also favors the larger alliances in that the smaller ones won't be able to chase down the masses of intys the larger ones can throw at a region so I don't get why so many of these small alliances are looking forward to this thinking they will be able to hold space.

From the other devblog" We are well aware that Nullsec empires have mastered the strategy of weaponizing their opponent’s boredom" so now we'll give you a way to weaponize your opponent's frustration. This will lead to quicker burn out than blueballing.

Edit: And for those who keep saying "well you can stop their progress by putting your own sov lazor on it" are ********. Then it just becomes a battle of who is willing to stay logged on longer. The only way this could possibly work is if it was a cruiser size and above. If it can be put on an inty it's the end of sov warfare and the beginning of sov trolling.
Sigras
Conglomo
#935 - 2015-03-04 01:00:44 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Brother Mercury wrote:
This patch makes it nearly worthless (save for POS BASH) to log in supers or dreads. j

....

FYI: Supers can use gates now.
FYI: Part of the new Sov System requires being able to move around. You can do this slowly in a heavy fleet (with capital support), or quickly in a more agile, but weaker fleet. Adapt or die.
FYI: Supers were designed to be anti-capital ships, not I-win buttons against all fleets.

Why would anyone use capitals after this patch i think is the real question.

capital RR support? I think Rooks and Kings has shown us how effective that can be.

POSs still exist and are still critical to 0.0 operation.
Zuel Aaoiric
Obsidian Oracle
#936 - 2015-03-04 01:02:17 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
needs destructible stations


Agreed! Eve isn't Eve if you put these arbitrary limitations on the mechanics that make no realistic sense.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#937 - 2015-03-04 01:02:32 UTC
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
All they're doing is making it even more aids to take a system, and practically impossible to do anything outside of your own TZ.

All you need is a cloud of interceptors with the t2 (250km range one) loaded up with sebos and a mwd and orbit far enough away so you can't smartbomb the blob and keep traversal up. Get a few fleets of these (only need 30 or so duders in each), load in some benny hill music and glhf.

It's not so much you can't kill the interceptors, as much as killing a single fleet of 30 interceptors before 10-40 minutes is a pain in the ****. Now look at killing 10 fleets of them reinforcing all your **** in a region and this mechanic is insanely annoying and most of the targets will get reinforced anyway.

This strategy also favors the larger alliances in that the smaller ones won't be able to chase down the masses of intys the larger ones can throw at a region so I don't get why so many of these small alliances are looking forward to this thinking they will be able to hold space.

From the other devblog" We are well aware that Nullsec empires have mastered the strategy of weaponizing their opponent’s boredom" so now we'll give you a way to weaponize your opponent's frustration. This will lead to quicker burn out than blueballing.



pass over that crystal ball bro... i like how you saw into the future to see that frigs can actually fit the mod.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Sigras
Conglomo
#938 - 2015-03-04 01:02:50 UTC
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
All they're doing is making it even more aids to take a system, and practically impossible to do anything outside of your own TZ.

All you need is a cloud of interceptors with the t2 (250km range one) loaded up with sebos and a mwd and orbit far enough away so you can't smartbomb the blob and keep traversal up. Get a few fleets of these (only need 30 or so duders in each), load in some benny hill music and glhf.

It's not so much you can't kill the interceptors, as much as killing a single fleet of 30 interceptors before 10-40 minutes is a pain in the ****. Now look at killing 10 fleets of them reinforcing all your **** in a region and this mechanic is insanely annoying and most of the targets will get reinforced anyway.

This strategy also favors the larger alliances in that the smaller ones won't be able to chase down the masses of intys the larger ones can throw at a region so I don't get why so many of these small alliances are looking forward to this thinking they will be able to hold space.

From the other devblog" We are well aware that Nullsec empires have mastered the strategy of weaponizing their opponent’s boredom" so now we'll give you a way to weaponize your opponent's frustration. This will lead to quicker burn out than blueballing.

Did ANYONE read the part of the blog where they said you can prevent a takeover of your structure with a friendly Entosis link?!

please people, read first, think second, and post last.
Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#939 - 2015-03-04 01:02:59 UTC
Talbrys Narentyr wrote:
All they're doing is making it even more aids to take a system, and practically impossible to do anything outside of your own TZ.

All you need is a cloud of interceptors with the t2 (250km range one) loaded up with sebos and a mwd and orbit far enough away so you can't smartbomb the blob and keep traversal up. Get a few fleets of these (only need 30 or so duders in each), load in some benny hill music and glhf.

It's not so much you can't kill the interceptors, as much as killing a single fleet of 30 interceptors before 10-40 minutes is a pain in the ****. Now look at killing 10 fleets of them reinforcing all your **** in a region and this mechanic is insanely annoying and most of the targets will get reinforced anyway.

This strategy also favors the larger alliances in that the smaller ones won't be able to chase down the masses of intys the larger ones can throw at a region so I don't get why so many of these small alliances are looking forward to this thinking they will be able to hold space.

From the other devblog" We are well aware that Nullsec empires have mastered the strategy of weaponizing their opponent’s boredom" so now we'll give you a way to weaponize your opponent's frustration. This will lead to quicker burn out than blueballing.




Quoting because it's the first bit of sense for 10 pages, my own posts included.
iP0D
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#940 - 2015-03-04 01:03:45 UTC
Zuel Aaoiric wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
needs destructible stations


Agreed! Eve isn't Eve if you put these arbitrary limitations on the mechanics that make no realistic sense.


Might become easier to introduce that once the bears, renters and blocks have emptied their outposts and moved assets to npc stations.