These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#481 - 2015-03-03 19:07:28 UTC
KC Kamikaze wrote:
It sounds to me like all the folks complaining about the change simply don't want to fight.

They are called nullbears for a reason Bear

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.

Kassasis Dakkstromri
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#482 - 2015-03-03 19:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Also regarding Command Node(s) and capture:

Re: Adding the need to scan down Command nodes:

Which equals diversity in game play.

If we're removing grinding then something has to be hard... right now it's attacker advantage the way populated Sov is currently used... i.e. BLOB warps in suddenly to system and griefs station by reinforcing everything services wise


Defender is at disadvantage because it's suprise attack, and the time to organize a defense ---


When it comes to actual Sov capture there isn't a decisive advantage for defender over attacker, which is fine, but once the command nodes start popping it's just a race to see who can come across the anomoly first


It would be nicer if some sill was involved of actually having to scan the things down instead of attacker just pre posiition in "spotters" in every constellation system and then via comms
deploy the fleet


____________

I mean I much rather have my Alliance leadership promoting scanner pilots as the saviours of our Empire, rather than the BLOB F1 monkey that only trained PVP skills

Envisioning FC's waiting for scanner results via scanner pilots, as well as scouts racing around updating on enemy activity (sharp uptick in local? or sudden cyno out ... where'd they cyno too)... having to manage the Meta, as opposed to how to get the BLOB to the next Command Node that's on everyone's overview

I think exploration/scanning has come of age and needs additional content - and this is a perfect content driver that would give that genre the next opportunity to make headway in the EVE online ingame culture.


*(And for the record I myself am not a scanner pilot - all skills are only at Lvl 2 for this character)

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#483 - 2015-03-03 19:08:11 UTC
KC Kamikaze wrote:

Real attempts to take sov will still escalate to epic cap fleets

why? reason this out for me, what advantage does a cap fleet give you in holding five specific grids in a constellation, especially given spaceaids
na'Vi Ronuken
Louis Nothing And Nobody
#484 - 2015-03-03 19:08:36 UTC
I think what you will end up seeing is coalitions consolidate to mega alliances based on TZ and corps would be tasked with living in their own consttillation.

This dev blog also does not describe what happens when sov flips while a super is in build.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#485 - 2015-03-03 19:09:16 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
I zoned out like 20 times reading this and had forgotten 60% of it when I reached the end. Ugh


Implants man. Implants. Or a big pot of Quafe.
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#486 - 2015-03-03 19:12:46 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:

Real attempts to take sov will still escalate to epic cap fleets

why? reason this out for me, what advantage does a cap fleet give you in holding five specific grids in a constellation, especially given spaceaids



A group that really wants your sov will bring carriers ... now you've got carriers on grid for dps or logi .. either way now you bring dreads to the party and triage of your own. Next they will escalate with supers and it's time to put that titan on the field. Battles where large groups are determined to gain that sov will still escalate to large battles. now once you get through the timer you get the mini games with the nodes all over the constellation ... another neat mechanic .. the fleet splits up to cover all the systems and more good fights ensue. Thats how it plays out in my mind anyway. If i held sov and someone brought in a carrier i'd be undocking dreads and hics.... forcing them to escalate further.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#487 - 2015-03-03 19:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
I find the changes really good.

When is about defending no mechanics can't stop a larger force to dominate smaller groups. At least the propose changes make easier for smaller groups to harass bigger coalitions. So overall i find it quite well thought. But will need some additional changes to make it complete.

- Entosis link is quite good except the 250 KM T2 range. Kiting, range doctrines will be the main doctrine for the bigger fights for the most part. Let brawlers play their part in the warfare also.

- structures operating independently is a great idea. I like the idea of the TCU is mostly a bragging structure. I thought about no marks for who holds the sov. The sov is hold by those who live there. But this is a nice middleground.

- The prime time idea is half good, it should be more like POCO mechanics. You can attack whenever you want but you defend in the hours you like the most. IHUB should give better and more variannts of boosts except when it is reinforced. If this would be the case the PRIME time rule for the IHUB should be ok.

- Command nodes will favor blobs much more than it is now. My 20 man fleet can be only at one place at time. If ppl come with 50 guys we lost it even tough we can take on 50 guys. My best advise would be to spawn them in only one random adjacent system of the reinforced target so a smaller group can block the way. To many targets to interact with less shooting happens = bad.

- Freeport mode is just damn awesome.

- Occupancy defense bonuses are a good idea.



When said that more things need to change if we want a great nullsec experience.

- Moon mining needs to be active and not passive.
- AFK cloaking must be gone
- Warp immune ceptors need to go
- Trading between nullsec entities needs to be a thing. There needs to be a rearrangement of resources. Certain parts of space needs to be abundant of some (basic) materials and lack of other. Dependent of where you live you will fly doctrines made most of the ships you can build there. Make ti so you can build most of the ships but mass produce only those that have abundant ressources for manufacturing it.
- Jump Fatigue must be harsher and it needs to take in account transport ships also. People moan about living in nullsec needs more incentive. Make ti very hard to import from jita and nullsec will be a dream for miners, ratters and explorers. Make nullsec powerblocs beg for carebers and industrialists and not to mass only PvP ers. The further you go from the highsec the richer the space should be.
- Also mining, missions and exploring should be a bit less profitable in highsec and nerf into the ground the highsec incursions and buff up nullsec ones.

- A big bonus would be to make mining and ratting mechanics a bit more challenging and interesting.

Also pls make it that lone corps can partecipate in sov warfare (hold sov).


TYVM for listening

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#488 - 2015-03-03 19:13:04 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well taking advice from the null posters who did everything within their power to troll up the Hyperion thread for wormhole space, and like them I know less than jack**** about your area of space, I must be uniquely qualified to pontificate about null changes.

Seems like an excellent series of changes.


Is it too early to utter the immortal cry "HTFU"? Too soon?


well, I suppose we will have to amend the people supporting this to "npc corp members, and wormholers who freely admit they don't understand it but just want to troll"

Joking aside, I actually wish you every success in getting a vibrant and healthy nullsec, It is all of our best interests,and I do watch with real interest.

It is simply a reminder that we should respect the other areas of space and those who live in them, and I hope when it comes back around, we can all learn that lesson, and not disrupt and distort valuable and meaningful discussion.

And all are better for it.
Good luck.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Illindar Tyrannus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#489 - 2015-03-03 19:13:10 UTC
So the concept of Timezone is terrible as many people have said before not only does it make section of space perfectly safe for the majority of the day but then creates a situation where alliances in different timezone cannot meaningfully interact with each other without alarm clocking. Please don't do this!

The other issues are if the new links can be on cepters I agree that this will cause problems when I can get max dudes and go reinforce eve on a slow weekend. but also if they can't go on cepters whats to stop alliances from creating unbreakable camps at choke points?
Total Newbie
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#490 - 2015-03-03 19:13:24 UTC
I finally figured out the reasoning behind this change.

Pre- Jump Fatigue it was normal to see 50K + people logged in.

Post- Jump Fatigue you're lucky to see 40K

After this change I imagine it will be around 25K

Hence, they have finally solved the lag problem.
Gypsien Agittain
Gypsy Queens
#491 - 2015-03-03 19:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Tons of time, masturbation, drugs and bathtime after my first thoughts on new changes I think that this enormous mountain of *) combined with the removal of *) fatigue *) could result, really, in an epic amount of good battles.

*Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.
Angry Mustache
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#492 - 2015-03-03 19:14:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Angry Mustache
KC Kamikaze wrote:
It sounds to me like all the folks complaining about the change simply don't want to fight.

If someone puts a thingy on your station to reinforce it and you put your own thingy on it then the progress is paused. So now you have a battle. Kill their guy and they have to put another one on it. To me it doesn't seem like ceptors will cut it and i think you're overreacting.

This change promotes smaller skirmish fights. Don't be such a whiney bunch of bears.

Real attempts to take sov will still escalate to epic cap fleets and t3 fleets.


There won't be fights because the optimal way to do things with current implementation is with ceptors, petes, and Svipuls fitted with T2 sov lasers. Or with disposible T1 frigates.

If they come for you, you run for the duration of the cycle, then repeat the process elsewhere. Or you use T1 frigates and just send hundreds of the things into enemy space, they will miss a couple.

An official Member of the Goonswarm Federation Complaints Department.

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#493 - 2015-03-03 19:17:50 UTC
Rowells wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
xartin wrote:
gment the nullsec playerbase as entire major regions of eve's active timezones will be excluded from participating in content.

Think from the perspective of an attacker wanting to capture alliance held space that is only vulnerable during EUtz.

UStz and AUtz will be completely excluded from any ability to be useful or participate. the same scenario would apply for defenders as well.

How is this different than properly stronting a timer, or a POCO timer? Defender picks his advantageous time, and everybody adjusts accordingly.

stront timers can differ, this primetime thing cannot. Some towers and structures may come out at different times than others for whatever purpose.


Then how is it different from current Ihub timers?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#494 - 2015-03-03 19:18:35 UTC
Sov wack-a-mole with no benefit for doing it. Why am I not surprised?
Bezdar22
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#495 - 2015-03-03 19:19:26 UTC
Angry Mustache wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
It sounds to me like all the folks complaining about the change simply don't want to fight.

If someone puts a thingy on your station to reinforce it and you put your own thingy on it then the progress is paused. So now you have a battle. Kill their guy and they have to put another one on it. To me it doesn't seem like ceptors will cut it and i think you're overreacting.

This change promotes smaller skirmish fights. Don't be such a whiney bunch of bears.

Real attempts to take sov will still escalate to epic cap fleets and t3 fleets.


There won't be fights because the optimal way to do things with current implementation is with ceptors, petes, and Svipuls fitted with T2 sov lasers. Or with disposible T1 frigates.

If they come for you, you run for the duration of the cycle, then repeat the process elsewhere. Or you use T1 frigates and just send hundreds of the things into enemy space, they will miss a couple.


i agree.. CCP is ruining the game again
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
Goonswarm Federation
#496 - 2015-03-03 19:19:34 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
I zoned out like 20 times reading this and had forgotten 60% of it when I reached the end. Ugh

You and the dabigredboat both.
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#497 - 2015-03-03 19:19:50 UTC
Angry Mustache wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
It sounds to me like all the folks complaining about the change simply don't want to fight.

If someone puts a thingy on your station to reinforce it and you put your own thingy on it then the progress is paused. So now you have a battle. Kill their guy and they have to put another one on it. To me it doesn't seem like ceptors will cut it and i think you're overreacting.

This change promotes smaller skirmish fights. Don't be such a whiney bunch of bears.

Real attempts to take sov will still escalate to epic cap fleets and t3 fleets.


There won't be fights because the optimal way to do things with current implementation is with ceptors, petes, and Svipuls fitted with T2 sov lasers. Or with disposible T1 frigates.

If they come for you, you run for the duration of the cycle, then repeat the process elsewhere. Or you use T1 frigates and just send hundreds of the things into enemy space, they will miss a couple.



That doesn't make sense. Whatever force their bring to attack your sov with is just another fleet. gilas eat tactical destroyers. There is a counter for any fleet type don't act like some simple fleet comp is just going to stomp all over this system.

Your alliance will need good intel and capable QRF to engage the aggressing alliance before they reinforce the structure. If everyone wants to hide in station and be pussies then yup any fleet comp will in fact do the job and you'll be homeless in two days.
Princess Cherista
Doomheim
#498 - 2015-03-03 19:21:01 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Sov wack-a-mole with no benefit for doing it. Why am I not surprised?

But but the benefit is fights....in nullified, stabbed, kitey no-commit fits What?
Shalazan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#499 - 2015-03-03 19:21:05 UTC
At night, there are fairies. And these magical fairies can only come out in the deepest darkest night four a few hours. Now these fairies have magical wands, known by the village elders as "Entosis Links". Now, during these few hours the magic fairies can use their wands to cause trouble, reinforcing the castles of the land and making terrible timers appear on them. Now the abandoned castles take no time at all, because nobody loves them and have abandoned them, you know what that's like. But in heavily used castles, the magic fairies may have to use their wands longer and put more magic into the the castle before it falls.

Now, when these magic faeries use their special wands they become vulnerable and unable to move! During this time the knights of the castle can defend their lord and banish these fairies in an explosion. Additionally, magical wizards can also use these wands to defend their land and stop the magic of the fairies from reinforcing the land. Now, if the magic fairies are successful in reinforcing the castle, it will have a timer. When this magical hour glass is done ticking down, it will cause magical places to pop up in the area of that castle. The wizards and fairies must once again battle using their wands for control of these magical lands to control the overall castle. If the defending wizards control the majority of these lands, the castle is saved and the fairies have to wait until its dark again to attack. But if the fairies win, the castle will be locked open for all to use and visit by the gods of generosity for two days, after which another magical battle for all the land occurs, where the one who holds the majority of the lands gets the castle.

The end.

[i]Shalazan Head Diplomat / Recruiting Officer Internet Terrorists[/i]

Def Monk
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#500 - 2015-03-03 19:21:12 UTC
So, I like what's going on. The gameplay is interesting and spread out, and should result in some interesting fun. As someone who simply day-trips into nullsec, this is even a great way to force fights with locals, even without the intention of taking ownership of the space.

That said, my problems with it are quite similar to Greygal's:

Greygal wrote:

- Get rid of the "prime time" idiocy. Just nuke it.
- Giving defensive bonuses to systems that are actively used is Good Idea™
- But you need to add a penalty to NOT using systems, so that systems that are unused eventually just drop sov, or become ridiculously easy to take.
- How about making those 48 hour timers much shorter in systems that have low activity levels?

My proposed solutions are a bit different though.

I understand the want for the 'prime time', but feel the current iteration is lacking. The hope was probably that smaller groups (people who can't be on in all timezones) would be able to be on when their space needs defending, but instead, this is just going to make it extremely difficult to take space from larger groups. My proposal comes in three pieces:

  • First, make prime time a series of timeslots. The size (with a minimum of an hour, max 24), time of day, and number of slots (you could have a one hour slot, twice a day, in your two main timezones) would be left entirely up to the current owner. It must add up to a length comparable to size of the alliance though - that is, large blocs may have this 'prime time' required to add up to 20 hours of the 24 hour day (subject to tweaking numbers, of course).
  • Second, prime times become entirely private. No need to show them to other alliances because...
  • Third, the initial reinforcement can start at any time of day. Once it is reinforced, it randomly selects a time inside the prime times, as currently, after the 48 hours, in which the reinforcement ends and the capture event begins.

This system would still have the effect of enabling owners to effectively react to reinforcement. Now though, the initial vulnerability attack can happen at any time, and so this avoids larger groups stone-walling defense during those 'prime times' to stop reinforcement altogether. Last, smaller groups will be able to have their smaller vulnerability window that helps with their activity when it actually matters most (the capture event). I still don't feel like the mechanic is perfect, but abandoning it altogether ignores the vulnerability that comes with being unable to man all timezones effectively, so I feel this method addresses concerns.



The next piece would be, as Greygal mentioned, rewards for activity. I think a simple solution to the problem of inactivity would be keeping track of the index levels for all groups, regardless of whether they're the current owners. Then, the calculations could be made exectly the same as defenses, except helping the attackers.

To put out an example, space perfectly actively used by owners would work as proposed. That means there is a 4x time for others to capture things (40 minutes for a node). Say this attacker has also managed to use the space just as actively, either through subverting the inhabitants (small groups stealing sites and ore) or a friendly alliance living there as well (who decides to betray their friend and attack). Since they cannot gain strategic index (they do not own the system), the max they could manage would be a 3.5x multiplier. This would then be used to reduce their timers: 4 / 3.5 = 1.14x, or managing to drag the timer back down to 11 minutes, 24 seconds. The owner would keep their timer of 10 minutes.

Likewise, if the owner does not have any use of a system and has simply held it for a long time, they can manage a multiplier of 1.5x. If the attacker has been using the space as above, and has the 3.5x multiplier, it would only take 4 minutes and 17 seconds (1.5 / 3.5 = 0.4286x of 10 minutes) to capture a node, making it much easier to take abandoned space if they have been living there unopposed. If the owner still decides to show up to defend the space they're not using, they still have their 10 minute timer.

Last, if a group has no activity AND they have just recently taken the space (ie, like a big bloc taking space just because they can and moving on in a large sweep), they would have a multiplier of 1x. Another group with 3.5x results in only taking 2 minutes and 51 seconds to take the nodes, which is significantly short.

Greygal wrote:

Where are the economic improvements? Is that coming this year also? Just curious.

Last, I'd also be interested in this. All this should make for a much more fun and dynamic system for taking null, but what's the point of people taking it in the first place? I'd much rather live in another space and not have to worry about defending it against other people. Normally, I am all for WH space being the most dangerous, and therefore the most profitable, but with this new system, the individual will need much more incentive to want to have to put up with a much more involved defense, and in turn, dangerous space considering the quicker turnover (though, that could fall on alliance management to give those incentives through the top-down moon mining profits, but I feel something more COULD be done).