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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2015-03-03 15:36:09 UTC
HEY LETS MAKE SOV EASIER TO TAKE FROM LARGE ENTITIES BUT GIVE NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER TO THE RESIDENTS.

Do you want everyone to do high sec incursions or something?


~content creation~
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#22 - 2015-03-03 15:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Need to read this far more closely, but my initial reactions are:

1. I don't see how this helps the little guy take and hold sov space. If anything, it seems to make it even easier for existing sov holders to hold and keep their space. Heck, the one nifty thing about these proposed changes - the Entosis Link, which could be used by little guys - is near on worthless if the only time you can attack something is during their prime time, and NOT during YOUR prime time.

2. I don't see occupancy effects as we've long been hoping and praying for... i.e., the more you use space, the stronger your hold over the space, the less you use space, the less you own it, eventually leading to sov dropping from lack of use. You've addressed (defensive) bonuses to using space, but have not addressed penalties for NOT using your space.

In other words, where is the "use it or lose it" based sov we've been begging for?

3. DETEST the "prime time" concept. Will expand more after I cool off over reading that, but it's pretty much screwed any advantage of having Australian-time-zone strong corps in nullsec. This gives HUGE advantage to the existing blocs. It also takes away any chance of small groups that are active in opponent's low-activity time zones the possibility of attacking and taking over someone else's sov. It takes away any opportunity for two large groups that are not in the same time zone to ever fight on a meaningful level. Most importantly, it essentially kills cross-time-zone teamwork within an alliance. How does making your space absolutely safe 20 hours out of the day encourage conflict?

4. DO like - in fact, love - the freeport bit. ADORE the Freeport idea. Love it.

Edit: Additional thoughts below after two more full reads of this.

5. I'm not entirely sure, but right now, I think I like the capture-the-nodes aspect of the changes. I can see how that spreads the fight out over several systems, but also (depending upon constellation layout) makes just hell-camping a single system could be a solid defensive tactic. I like that this makes subcaps (especially fast ones) have a highly useful role in "big" sov fights. I can see how small roving 3rd party gangs could royally screw things up for attackers and defenders (not entirely sure that is good or bad though). (Edit: More I think about it, especially the chasing and fighting aspects, the more I like the command nodes idea.)

6. I don't see how capitals/supers/titans/etc play a role in taking sov anymore. In fact, you could potentially take and hold and defend sov space without any big-boy-toys at all... which does have a certain appeal, I must admit, but if there is NO REASON to use your big-boy-toys, then there is NO REASON TO RISK THEM. Which means less big-boy-toys dying, and that does make me sad. I'm not a fan of capital/super/titan/dread warfare, but I recognize it's something many players really enjoy, and I believe supporting engaging gameplay for the big-boy-toys is vital to Eve's health. And I do like tackling them Big smile

Will write/edit after I re-read and think this over more.

Final edit, I promise :)

- Get rid of the "prime time" idiocy. Just nuke it. Keep the current reinforcement timer system, where the owner sets what time a structure comes out of reinforced to their prime time, but let us attack at the time of our own choosing.
- Giving defensive bonuses to systems that are actively used is Good Idea™
- But you need to add a penalty to NOT using systems, so that systems that are unused eventually just drop sov, or become ridiculously easy to take.
- How about making those 48 hour timers much shorter in systems that have low activity levels?

Where are the economic improvements? Is that coming this year also? Just curious.

GG

March 4: Okay, 4 more edits/thoughts Lol after reading every word of the next 42 pages of responses:

- If you absolutely must keep the prime time, there are numerous suggestions in the following 42 pages that have prime time based on activity levels in a system/constellation. Building upon ideas I particularly liked in the following pages is to have areas heavily used have very small prime times, and areas hardly used have long (all the way to 24 hours) prime times, making unused systems vulnerable to attack at any time. This suggestion, which I hope you give thought to, addresses many of the issues of the prime time concept, provides cross-time-zone content, is a big advantage to small groups, forces larger groups to pay better attention to their unused systems or drop them, and if those unused systems happen to have nice moons, give potential use for caps/supers.

- Stick to your guns about letting the entosis link be fit on virtually any ship, including interceptors. That's one of the best ideas in the blog, the ensuing hilarity will be epic. Yes, it'll be abused for trolling purposes sometimes, but if you don't have the ability to swarm an area with fast, small ships (maybe they came in through a frigate wormhole?), half of the best part of these changes is wiped out. Sure, it'll be annoying at times, but that's okay! There are far too many ways for people to counter such swarms, including the simplest: Undock and put your own entosis link on the structure to counter.

- Totally agree with the numerous suggestions on the following 42 pages about all forms of industry, including building, research, exploration, etc., affect the industry index. PVP should also be included in the military index. Everything you do in your sov space should count towards improving your occupancy strength.

- Drastically reducing the size of iHubs is vital to the success of this. iHubs will be reinforced and destroyed far more often - which is a Good Thing™ - having a steady supply of iHubs for people to attack is essential to this. Smile

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Code2200
Caprican Initiative
#23 - 2015-03-03 15:37:07 UTC
Not what I was hoping for. Feel like once Time Dilation starts for big battles it will just be a pain in the ass. This should be looked over again!! Sorry CCP.

Code2200

Caprican Initiative

President of the Twelve Colonies

ORIAN345
Roush 5.0
#24 - 2015-03-03 15:37:28 UTC
great work
Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-03-03 15:38:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Total Newbie wrote:

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


To recap:

1st phase we made it impossible to project force.

2nd phase we have made it so any scrub corp or band of newbie alts can mess with sov.



Oh no they made it so you actually have to defend your stuff yourself instead of calling Papa Goon to come rescue you! THE HORROR!
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#26 - 2015-03-03 15:44:25 UTC
Busy at work. But my preliminary response after reading the preamble and seeing "Each Sovereignty structure will be able to operate independently from other Sov structures" is...

Thank you for listening!

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-03-03 15:44:41 UTC
If you think Reavers were bad... you just made it very hard for any casual alliance to hold sov in the face of a dedicated core of folks from one of the blocs dropping sov simply to grief.

Remember that larger alliances have the ability to organize and sustain action better than most smaller ones. One outcome of these changes may very well be large areas of wasteland that is regularly mowed of sov 'just cause'.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2015-03-03 15:46:10 UTC
are those numbers for entosis module right? 20km for T1 and 25okm for T2?
Traiori
Going Critical
#29 - 2015-03-03 15:46:19 UTC
Hate the idea of prime time.

It forces every little group in the game to fight at a maximum disadvantage, because we can't organise it so that timers are during a bad moment for the opponent. Yes, timers come at a terrible time for us as small groups but you can normally work around that to some extent. Enforcing a

It makes every alliance have to consolidate into a particular timezone because, for instance, you now can't have your EUTZ fighting timers at 1900 and your USTZ fighting timers at 0000 because the fights only happen during "primetime". Even my little 80 man alliance has a "primetime" longer than that. I would do it the other way round: I would select a "quiet period" of up to 8 hours during which structures are not vulnerable.

Though I can hear the complaints of every russian as they discover that their offensive timers are always at 3am...
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2015-03-03 15:46:28 UTC
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
If you think Reavers were bad... you just made it very hard for any casual alliance to hold sov in the face of a dedicated core of folks from one of the blocs dropping sov simply to grief.

Remember that larger alliances have the ability to organize and sustain action better than most smaller ones. One outcome of these changes may very well be large areas of wasteland that is regularly mowed of sov 'just cause'.

yeah, anyone who does not bend the knee will be summarily wiped out

brb getting to work on some sufficiently degrading oaths of fealty
Karbowiak
The League Of Unwanted Capsuleers
#31 - 2015-03-03 15:46:37 UTC
Am i the only one wishing that we'd get the old pos warfare sov system back? Shocked
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2015-03-03 15:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
This design is one of most hilariously amazing things to come out of CCP.

Edit: Just so I'm clear, my amazement is in how this seems to have been designed by someone who's never actually fought a nullsec war.
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-03-03 15:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
7000 words wasn't a joke, here goes two hours. Big smile

Edit:
No shooting structures? More people not speeding the process? Spreading fights over the whole constellation?!

Its happening!!!

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Shodan Of Citadel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-03-03 15:47:08 UTC
Freeport Mode... Gives the aggressor docking rights and turn every battle into high-sec station bullshit.

Goal 6... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm sure Goons will only bring 2-300 people instead of system crushing 2-3000.

Entosis Link -turned EVE into some twisted king of the hill system where sheer number of Links win.



CCP, give machariels a bonus to juggling and the middle lane.

Angry Mustache
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2015-03-03 15:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Angry Mustache
You mentioned that the Entosis link will have low fitting requirements, and not disable propulsion while active.

What is there to prevent massive hordes of T2 entosis fitted interceptors from completely swarming an area and putting entosis links on everything?

All the ceptor has to do is stay within a 250km bubble of the objective, and even if hostiles show up, you just have to MWD around for 2 minutes. If the enemy is trying to entosis your objective, do the same.

What's to stop a large group from putting 1000 nerds in interceptors, and just burn through 100 systems in 1-2 hours? You've made sov easier to take, but that works both ways.

Any small group that slights a big group can expect all their space reinforced in less than 30 minutes. By interceptors.

So the future of Sov warfare is inteceptor with sov lasers, slippery petes to kill interceptors, and absolutely no fleet on fleet fighting.

An official Member of the Goonswarm Federation Complaints Department.

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-03-03 15:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Karbowiak wrote:
Am i the only one wishing that we'd get the old pos warfare sov system back? Shocked


Yes. No more structure shooting!

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

GOB the Magician
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2015-03-03 15:47:53 UTC
Still little reason to actually live in the sov. Perhaps update #37 will address this.
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2015-03-03 15:48:35 UTC
CCP, can you please address the point to living in null sec? I mean my logic is that because there is more risk to living in null sec there should be more reward, but as it stands this is not the case. Do you have any plans to address the gaping goatse-sized hole in the risk vs. reward proprotion of nullsec vs say high sec?

Thanks.

Yours in christ,

Aryndel Vyst
Director of Personnel Operations and Logistics
Goonswarm Federation
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2015-03-03 15:49:23 UTC
Karbowiak wrote:
Am i the only one wishing that we'd get the old pos warfare sov system back? Shocked

no, i liked that and it was significantly better in a lot of ways than this or dominion

it was completely broken by AOE doomsdays protecting cynojammers, but that's gotten fixed, and fuel blocks exist now
Karbowiak
The League Of Unwanted Capsuleers
#40 - 2015-03-03 15:51:30 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Karbowiak wrote:
Am i the only one wishing that we'd get the old pos warfare sov system back? Shocked

no, i liked that and it was significantly better in a lot of ways than this or dominion

it was completely broken by AOE doomsdays protecting cynojammers, but that's gotten fixed, and fuel blocks exist now


True story.

Plus with the POS system, you could take a system in about a day, instead of spending a week taking on system.
Yes you had to steamroll a system with lots of dreads, but compared to the current system, or the proposed one, you atleast had a light at the end of the tunnel.

Meh, whatever..