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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3241 - 2015-03-06 22:38:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

It's not like CCP needs to up anomaly pay, they need to 100% totally rethink sov null pve to make it's rewards now tank the whole damn economy while being lucrative enough to give an actual reason to be there rather than in a stealth bomber in Black Rise... Replacing anomalies with some kind of mission structure would help.


How much do you spend to replace pvp ships you lose? What is the alliance level income for your group compared to a FW alliance? The ISK in null is on corp and alliance level. That funds SRP, which means null players can participate in large fleets without risking a whole lot.

Ratting in Null is not a great deal of ISK but its not bad either. In good systems you can make 150M pr hour, cash in hand. Missions in null are there but in npc space. Given the amount of local residents who wont take kindly to you running their missions its not available for most nullsec sov holders.

But the good isk in low has made lowsec lively. There are people in most system and fights can be had. Not sure null needs more buffing for personal income. But I also digress, the rewards of sov are not on the table for this change in sov-taking mechanics.

Benilopax
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3242 - 2015-03-06 22:39:01 UTC
Did the break out threads happen?

...

Kaliba Mort
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#3243 - 2015-03-06 22:50:17 UTC
Dark Spite wrote:
[quote=Vigilanta]
First kill defensive SBU's, then anchor SBU and then online SBU. Unless you have a supercap blob thats hours and hours of effort.


Or you know, use 10 dreads and one cycle the SBUs - 5 minutes.

But then even large coalitions used "siege fleet" bombers to RF towers and SBUs for various reasons. Those reasons have nothing to do with availability or lack of supercaps. It has more to do with the risk vs. reward vs. effort triangle.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#3244 - 2015-03-06 22:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Jenn aSide wrote:
Then I have a toon in the Minmatar Militia. I created this toon last year and trained her specifically for a Purifier. She can't even use tech2 torp launchers yet. I do fw lvl 4 missions in this manner and wait till Minnie is at least at tier 4 to cash out. you don't make 600 mil per hour anymore because of saturation of the market, but by my spread sheet I make between 200-250 mil per hour.

Now look my in the electronic eye and tell me with a straight internet face that you can't find the incredible imbalance in being able to make more with 1 toon in a stealth bomber than you can with 2 toons in faction battleships.


I'm not going to debate that FW is, um, an interesting case. My former FC, now unsubbed, orbited buttons to make something like 6Bn ISK so that he wouldn't have to worry about ISK for a good while. (I tried, on another character, and gave up in despair. I would rather watch paint dry: at least I would know that at the end, I'd done something to improve the house.)

But that's LP, right? LP has the value it has because you find out how to maximally spend it to satisfy player demand on the market, right? And you presumably do a better job of hauling your goods to market than the miserable freighters full of implants that end up on Bat Country's killboard, yes? But you're still putting the stuff in space, in the game, on the way to market. That's emergent play! We like that.

Now, consider that one of my old alliance-mates, since unsubscribed, had a million LP and no clear idea what to do with it. I can't remember what kind of LP, but in that quantity it hardly matters. Hell, I have a bunch of it lying around, because :effort:, and because I'm currently playing Skill Training Online.

The (potential) value of LP, and the way that value is realized, exposes one of the systemic flaws in nullsec. The nearest equivalents (because they produce goods that are sold to players) are moons and mining, and what state are those in? Where are they sold?

Jenn aSide wrote:
And I can the same thing with one toon in high sec blitzing lvl 4 burner missions for sisters of EVE with only a stable of 3 frig sized ships (Daredevil, Dramiel and Worm).

And as an individual pilot with a vindicator in a shiny fleet I can make 140ish mil per hour doing incursions with a fleet that has the FC doing all the work for me.

And I can take my carrier to low sec and run lvl 5 missions and make WAY more. Hell, my wormhole Gila by itself can almost make as much as my rattlesnake crew (if I don't die, wormhole space is the only space that actually does risk/reward right in the entire game).


1) yes, as I mentioned, you can twist the missioning system until it screams, because it's archaic and half-implemented. I believe that people like you who take the considerable, and unusual extra effort to wring out every last bit of reward from the system should be compensated for it. I also believe that there are not many of you. After all, every single AFKtar is a judgment that a considerable loss in ISK/hr is worth not having to pay attention to ratting, right? But you do this because you enjoy it.

2) OK, and how many people do that? When you factor in all the flying to different locations, what's your ISK/hr? What's the up-front investment necessary to even get in to do that? I bet that it's a lot more than an AFKtar, let alone an old (and probably obsolete) ratting Talos.

3) You have a carrier. I can't even fly one. How many people can? and of those, how many people are confident enough to put them at risk in low sec, running L5s?

Jenn aSide wrote:
It's not like CCP needs to up anomaly pay, they need to 100% totally rethink sov null pve to make it's rewards now tank the whole damn economy while being lucrative enough to give an actual reason to be there rather than in a stealth bomber in Black Rise... Replacing anomalies with some kind of mission structure would help.


According to various noises from CCP, missions are on the (eventual) chopping block.

You'll have no argument from me about the absurdity of the coward Atron/billionaire SB problem.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3245 - 2015-03-06 22:57:47 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
SNIP

LOL. I DARE YOU to really convince 20 thousand players to do that all the time. At least fro more than 1 month.


That would be dear leaders job to motivate us. And that's 13,145 characters to cover all of offense. And we can be motivated to do perform at that level, we did after all ground down Fountain in bombers for example. Those he ignore history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3246 - 2015-03-06 22:59:27 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

It's been fun watching you do a 180 on every ideal you have projected over other subjects. Here you are being against people playing the game when in the justification of ganking hapless freighters in hisec you are all about playing the game and HTFU.


Heh, that just goes to show you don't understand me, or my point of view. (but then, you weren't trying, you just want something to rail against)

I'm fully in favor of harassing renters. I did it for a long time. But I'd like to them to actually have a chance.

There are no "helpless" freighters in highsec, because highsec is just so very safe. You have to fail extremely hard to die under those circumstances.

But this? This is like adding a zero to Concord response time. You know, making it possible to gank a freighter with four catalysts. I'd be against that too, if they proposed it. This amounts to lowering the bar so far, that what once required a commitment of several Dreadnaughts now require the commitment of a frigate and a handful of money.

There is almost no commitment on the part of the defender, and everything to gain, up to and including the destruction of an iHub. I'm against turning the game into a job for everyone, no matter what part of space they live in, and that's what this does for sov holders.



Quote:

It's good at least knowing that all Church of HTFU dogma is as false as I assumed it to be.


No, that's just your confirmation bias talking. I'm not a goon, either, much as though you'd delight in assuming that anyone who disagrees with your inane ranting is one.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#3247 - 2015-03-06 23:00:11 UTC
[

According to various noises from CCP, missions are on the (eventual) chopping block.

You'll have no argument from me about the absurdity of the coward Atron/billionaire SB problem.[/quote]



if that has any truth to then why are they working on cruiser burner missions.. just stop already and please stick to topic.

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3248 - 2015-03-06 23:01:29 UTC
Dark Spite wrote:

This would also mean there are actually 40K PLAYERS in CFC, and the answer is that there isnt. I would like to see all players multiboxing all their alts for both these things. It would be killmail farming heaven for everyone else, unless they all have 4-10 monitors each.


What? Multi boxing can be done on 1 screen with various programs.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3249 - 2015-03-06 23:05:56 UTC
Kaliba Mort wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:
[quote=Vigilanta]
First kill defensive SBU's, then anchor SBU and then online SBU. Unless you have a supercap blob thats hours and hours of effort.


Or you know, use 10 dreads and one cycle the SBUs - 5 minutes.

But then even large coalitions used "siege fleet" bombers to RF towers and SBUs for various reasons. Those reasons have nothing to do with availability or lack of supercaps. It has more to do with the risk vs. reward vs. effort triangle.


Dreads are nice, but also means a lot more risk. In a system with 4 gates thats 15 minutes plus align and warp time. Means a lot more risk, and not everyone can afford to risk having 10 dreads on the field for 20 minutes. Having 200 bombers saves a lot of time compared to having 20-40.

Entosis somewhat levels the time invested for all groups, which means more conflict since smaller groups can force timers without going bat-**** crazy from structure bashing. Hopefully that means more conflict because its so much easier to force a response than currently. This is the part of the proposal that could invigorate null conflict.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3250 - 2015-03-06 23:08:53 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
S2N forum leak about upcoming sov changes :
http://pastebin.com/3PgbuNtD

Have fun reading.

I hope CCP reads this and takes note.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3251 - 2015-03-06 23:13:12 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

Prime Time window will be the first 'breakout thread.

Look, go listen for yourself . . . or wait for the next thread. Greygal voiced a good idea of linking prime window to the indices of the alliance. One that is not active would see their window widen, making them more vulnerable.

m




he'll ignore it just like he's ignored cloaky camping which also has an impact on system indexes.. he's just trying to keep heat off his behind.. he's lying his behind off..

gameplay has became cloaky afk camping and nothing has been done about it. he pretends there isn't an issue, but if there's hundreds of threads about it.. why not someone from ccp deal with it..

oh that's right .. AFK CLOAKY CAMPING is active gameplay....psssssssssssssssht


You may not get the answer you expect, if seeing a cloaky camper in system makes you worry , he may just remove what it is that makes you worry.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3252 - 2015-03-06 23:15:29 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
LOL. I DARE YOU to really convince 20 thousand players to do that all the time. At least fro more than 1 month.


I have said the same thing but it is GSF and they have all the everything. I agree that they can muster up a large portion of the player base but I don't think that they have enough pull to have much more than a few thousand players at any given time-that aren't alts-to put into action and defiantly not for more than a month or so. If that, organization goes a long way but people have lives and I don't think they have that kind of numbers or stamina.


It comes down to drive and commitment, and we have a lot of both. With the right direction, we have in the past engaged in some pretty wrist-slashingly self-harming behavoir in order to inflict greater suffering on others, or in order to make a point. And I imagine the first thing we'll want to do it this goes through as-is, is make the biggest, loudest point we can contrive.

And the thing is, it is in our interest to do so. I will say in no uncertain terms, I hate Interceptors. I hate chasing them (because you never catch them), and I hate flying them (because you have to disengage when anything vaguely like a fight looks at you). They are the single greatest example of risk-aversion in the game. I accept that they have a purpose (chasing and capturing those who seek to escape a fight), that they are desired to fulfill, but I feel they fulfill far too many things outside their remit, that they have no buisness doing. That said, if we get told to get in to Interceptors to show how horribly broken they will be in this current version of the rules, I damn well will do, even if I personally loathe every minute, simply because not making this point will in the long run make every other party of the game far more miserable for me.


I have no doubt in what you have said but realistically it probably won't happen because herding over a thousand players for more than a moth just to troll a system pushes the boundary, yeah a few hundred here and there and maybe a week or two at a time but I seriously doubt that even GSF has the pull to keep its numbers high and the attrition low for more that a month of boring, tedious play, especially if they are having to do it on multiple alts, lets face the facts, there aren't as many GSF individual players are there are members. How many play in BRAVE just to have more fun/hour?


It's amazing how many times peoples confirmation biases are tossed about with respect to the CFC. You just don't get it, when people say we can't be motivated to do something wrist slittingly bad to them, repeatedly for months, we will do it, just because we can then get off on proving you wrong. Add in that this mechanic for sov as proposed is hilariously open to abuse by a group motivated enough to abuse it to destruction and you have the recipe for a perfect fire storm. The CFC will burn new eden sov null to the ground using these mechanics.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3253 - 2015-03-06 23:16:25 UTC
Oh yeah, someone brought up Dreadnaughts, so now I have a question. What the heck are Dreadnaughts good for anymore? Will they be rebalanced to find a new role?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3254 - 2015-03-06 23:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Pekin Warbeck wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/eve-down-under/eve-down-under-episode-97-060315 is the link of Fozzie being interviewed on Eve Down Under. You may want to skip the first 5 min of introductions.

He addresses interceptors @ 11 minute mark

'If gameplay devolves into people orbiting at 250 km . . . then we would make sure that that doesn't happen"

snip

m


Wow, just, wow. I assume you are joking. You don't implement a flawed, exploitable system on the basis of 'well we can always patch it up later' ffs.


If CCP pre-nerfed everything that people were able to theorycraft into a disaster, nothing in EVE would ever be useable.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3255 - 2015-03-06 23:20:26 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

If CCP pre-nerfed everything that people were able to theorycraft into a disaster, nothing in EVE would ever be useable.


They already do that for Caldari.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Iain Cariaba
#3256 - 2015-03-06 23:21:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh yeah, someone brought up Dreadnaughts, so now I have a question. What the heck are Dreadnaughts good for anymore? Will they be rebalanced to find a new role?

POS bashing, c6 wormhole escalations, and POS bashing.
Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3257 - 2015-03-06 23:22:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh yeah, someone brought up Dreadnaughts, so now I have a question. What the heck are Dreadnaughts good for anymore? Will they be rebalanced to find a new role?


Still really good for POS bashes and killing other capitals. Dont really see the need for rebalancing them,
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3258 - 2015-03-06 23:25:39 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
SNIP

LOL. I DARE YOU to really convince 20 thousand players to do that all the time. At least fro more than 1 month.


That would be dear leaders job to motivate us. And that's 13,145 characters to cover all of offense. And we can be motivated to do perform at that level, we did after all ground down Fountain in bombers for example. Those he ignore history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.


Fountain had an endgame, a light at the end of the tunnel. That will no longer be the case, you'll have to constantly beat down people who contest your ownership of the whole of nullsec, assuming you actually manage to capture as much space as your alliance seems to think it can.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3259 - 2015-03-06 23:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh yeah, someone brought up Dreadnaughts, so now I have a question. What the heck are Dreadnaughts good for anymore? Will they be rebalanced to find a new role?

According to the link to the podcast posted my Mike A earlier, the answer is Yes ™ but not yet.
He also answers, your questions on cloaky camping in an interesting way, that may remove your worries, possibly not the way you might expect though........

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3260 - 2015-03-06 23:29:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh yeah, someone brought up Dreadnaughts, so now I have a question. What the heck are Dreadnaughts good for anymore? Will they be rebalanced to find a new role?


POSs, escalating. Asaki (how do you spell that?) was started over a Cobalt moon, not particularly special or rare. And yet it spawned a massive supercap fight.

Fights will still escalate in the new system, even without mountains of EHP to grind though.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.