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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Author
Papa Digger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2281 - 2015-03-05 12:21:28 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

Who's talking about holding it? You don't build an apartment building on your game preserve...

What a point of grief then? You came, take station.. you leave, you lose station. :)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2282 - 2015-03-05 12:21:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

I will give some serious thought as to why, you are unable to understand that in a system that is designed to ensure local occupancy and defence, why having inpenetrateable gatecamps 20 jumps out that will ensure that no one gets to the target, and removing the tools that can penetrate them, does not work to achieve those goals.


I'm not sure why you think that guarding the external borders of a contiguous area of sovereignty should be a 100% unviable option.

Oh, that's right. Your bias is why you think that.

Possibly because that is what we have today, large swathes of renters and unoccupied space.
It would take a particular brand of denial, not to understand that, this is contrary to the entire concept of Sov2.

If you still fail to understand this, I could puzzle over why, until the heat death of the universe and still not reach an understanding why.

Unless I consider the obvious.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2283 - 2015-03-05 12:21:54 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Logically, they are waiting to see if people actually understand what is being presented here, in depth, rather than feed hysteria.
Eventually, people will realise, that the new sovereignty landscape is mobile, to encourage active players in coalitions of many new smaller time zone based alliances, created either from new, or smaller from the current big alliances, to defend their home constellation, and NOT claim ownership, of areas they are neither wishing to live in or defend.

But of course people will resist this, because it is different.
There are no doubt ways it can be more effective, and enjoyable.
But until people get exhausted form trying fruitlessly, to remove all the tools of the new sov2 it will be hard to move on from that into productive discourse.


Very true, but they could be waiting a long time. This will be a threadnaught the likes of which we have never seen.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2284 - 2015-03-05 12:23:31 UTC
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:

Who's talking about holding it? You don't build an apartment building on your game preserve...

What a point of grief then? You came, take station.. you leave, you lose station. :)

And they lose the ihub and have to ship one in and re-anchor it and spend up to 100 days rebuilding their sov index etc.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2285 - 2015-03-05 12:24:04 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Possibly because that is what we have today, large swathes of renters and unoccupied space.
It would take a particular brand of denial, not to understand that, this is contrary to the entire concept of Sov2.


It takes a particular kind of intellectual dishonesty to jump to the wild conclusion that defense is intended to be impossible in this rebalance.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#2286 - 2015-03-05 12:24:28 UTC
Papa Digger wrote:
What a point of grief then? You came, take station.. you leave, you lose station. :)


Burning down ihubs to degrade the money you can make in that space. Freeporting the station so SOLAR can get its crap out from where PL stuffed it. maybe blowing up TCUs so the sov drops for things like SCSAAs and jump bridges.

Or just to annoy people. There's always reasons to grief. ;)
Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#2287 - 2015-03-05 12:24:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

The T2 module gives differing tactical options, that is why its there, its actually pretty smart, the functionality comes at a significant increased cost and I expect a lot of ships will die trying to RF.

EDIT: By the way, I do not think that the T2 version is meant for smaller ships, even though it may be used for them, I think that its a module thaht require lock so its limited to the targetting range, at least I hope that is the case.


The tactical options can come from the 1000% buff to range.

The speed buff is simply not necessary. 5 minutes might, in and of itself, be too fast. The only saving grace is that once you activate it, you are stuck on grid for that whole time. Although the question needs to be answered as to whether flying out of range will immediately halt the module (and thus give you back warp ability), or whether the cycle time will still complete but unsuccessfully(thus preventing warp for the entire cycle time).


Its stated that target lock is required for the module to work, so its reasonable to assume that going out of locking range will stop the cycle. It then has to be re-initiated. But given how little detail is provided in the blog its difficult to be definite on this.

Deathstar POS's with a gunner and web/scram will kill an interceptor. The reason not so many die to POS is lock time of modules, but a fast aligning ship on grid is a totally different matter.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2288 - 2015-03-05 12:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:

Who's talking about holding it? You don't build an apartment building on your game preserve...

What a point of grief then? You came, take station.. you leave, you lose station. :)


We freeport it, destroy their ratting and mining and just make life hell for them.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#2289 - 2015-03-05 12:26:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

The T2 module gives differing tactical options, that is why its there, its actually pretty smart, the functionality comes at a significant increased cost and I expect a lot of ships will die trying to RF.

EDIT: By the way, I do not think that the T2 version is meant for smaller ships, even though it may be used for them, I think that its a module thaht require lock so its limited to the targetting range, at least I hope that is the case.


The tactical options can come from the 1000% buff to range.

The speed buff is simply not necessary. 5 minutes might, in and of itself, be too fast. The only saving grace is that once you activate it, you are stuck on grid for that whole time. Although the question needs to be answered as to whether flying out of range will immediately halt the module (and thus give you back warp ability), or whether the cycle time will still complete but unsuccessfully(thus preventing warp for the entire cycle time).


I think that speed buff for T2 was linked to marauders in Bastion mode.

I think you should have to stay in the ships locking range, or on grid so flying out of range should halt the module and enable you to warp. But I don't care either way, though it would placate people a bit if they could not warp.

My main question is if the attacks end does the 10 minutes start again? I hope that is the case.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2290 - 2015-03-05 12:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Possibly because that is what we have today, large swathes of renters and unoccupied space.
It would take a particular brand of denial, not to understand that, this is contrary to the entire concept of Sov2.


It takes a particular kind of intellectual dishonesty to jump to the wild conclusion that defense is intended to be impossible in this rebalance.


Defence is perfectly feasable if you live in system, however if you wish to hold large unoccupied areas of space, and intend to defend it by helicoptering in support from elsewhere, far from the attack, within your closed borders?

Well then, I guess you are pretty much screwed.Roll

But of course when they come out of reinforcement, then you can use all the tactics you are familiar with.
But so can the opposition.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2291 - 2015-03-05 12:27:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:

Who's talking about holding it? You don't build an apartment building on your game preserve...

What a point of grief then? You came, take station.. you leave, you lose station. :)


We freeport it.


I can't help but think that creating a deliberate DMZ of unclaimed systems around space that you actually want to own would be an unintended consequence of how this rebalance is currently planned.

If anyone comes to take it to stage into your actual space, you just harass them with timers until they give up in frustration. It only takes two minutes a day to reinforce anything, after all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

MIKI ZUKI
Doomheim
#2292 - 2015-03-05 12:28:31 UTC
if after so may years these is the best you could came with, thse capture the flag bs the thse game is doomed , 2 yearsmax till it goes belly up
Arrendis
TK Corp
#2293 - 2015-03-05 12:30:17 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Possibly because that is what we have today, large swathes of renters and unoccupied space.
It would take a particular brand of denial, not to understand that, this is contrary to the entire concept of Sov2.


It takes a particular kind of intellectual dishonesty to jump to the wild conclusion that defense is intended to be impossible in this rebalance.


Defence is perfectly feasable if you live in system, however if you wish to hold large areas of space, and intend to defend it by helicoptering in support from elsewhere, far from the attack, within your closed borders?

Well then, I guess you are pretty much screwed.Roll


Actually, I could see Prime Time being set to a rolling window across CFC space, so if you want to get some action in EUTZ, you head to tribute and dek. Early US, head to PBF. Late US, Cloud/Outer Ring, into Fountain, with the remainder of Fountain in AU.

Branch gets RUS TZ. Blink
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2294 - 2015-03-05 12:31:02 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

I think that speed buff for T2 was linked to marauders in Bastion mode.

I think you should have to stay in the ships locking range, or on grid so flying out of range should halt the module and enable you to warp. But I don't care either way, though it would placate people a bit if they could not warp.

My main question is if the attacks end does the 10 minutes start again? I hope that is the case.


As was mentioned, you need to maintain target lock.

So hopefully just pulling range while aligned doesn't break the warp disrupting effect instantly. Because that would be pretty broken.

As for the timer, I also would like to know this. Hopefully it either goes back to zero immediately, or at the very least ticks down over time.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#2295 - 2015-03-05 12:31:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
...Most of the space we already have is near useless and provides nothing for the ordinary line member. After this change it will still be useless space only now it will be even easier to disrupt everyone using our massive numbers.

CCP seems intent on change and have demonstrated with this blog that they are neither afraid to shake up the status quo or react strongly to player attempts to deliberately bugger up the new system.

Your considered response appears to be to demonstrate how game breaking the sort of behaviour that you are terrified of will be. I seem to remember similar rhetoric about siphons. I hope CCP finds a way to neuter your hissy fit response (assuming it ever happens) and still break up what is truly stultifying null, i.e. the huge coalitions. I'm confident they will.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2296 - 2015-03-05 12:33:24 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Your considered response appears to be to demonstrate how game breaking the sort of behaviour that you are terrified of will be. I seem to remember similar rhetoric about siphons. I hope CCP finds a way to neuter your hissy fit response (assuming it ever happens) and still break up what is truly stultifying null, i.e. the huge coalitions. I'm confident they will.

Actually I'm remembering we said the siphons would NOT be the "conflict generators" they're sold as.

Turns out they didn't turn into the conflict generators they were sold as. Imagine that.
Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2297 - 2015-03-05 12:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Terence Bogard
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

As for the timer, I also would like to know this. Hopefully it either goes back to zero immediately, or at the very least ticks down over time.


+1

The timer should tick back over time at like 50% speed. That way you only need to kill enemy links instead of having to deploy your own. Should allow more freedom in defensive tactics.

Edit: With that approach you could just alpha link ships off the field once they activate, effectively forcing a large portion of enemy ships to fit links.

Second Edit: On second thought the rate at which it regens should be exponential. Little to no effect during combat but still regens fast enough.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2298 - 2015-03-05 12:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Lord TGR wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Your considered response appears to be to demonstrate how game breaking the sort of behaviour that you are terrified of will be. I seem to remember similar rhetoric about siphons. I hope CCP finds a way to neuter your hissy fit response (assuming it ever happens) and still break up what is truly stultifying null, i.e. the huge coalitions. I'm confident they will.

Actually I'm remembering we said the siphons would NOT be the "conflict generators" they're sold as.

Turns out they didn't turn into the conflict generators they were sold as. Imagine that.



They may well however rise to greater prominence, with Sov2 particuarly If they gain short cycle time. And even better were scoopable, a true guerrilla unit.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2299 - 2015-03-05 12:35:23 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Your considered response appears to be to demonstrate how game breaking the sort of behaviour that you are terrified of will be. I seem to remember similar rhetoric about siphons. I hope CCP finds a way to neuter your hissy fit response (assuming it ever happens) and still break up what is truly stultifying null, i.e. the huge coalitions. I'm confident they will.

Actually I'm remembering we said the siphons would NOT be the "conflict generators" they're sold as.

Turns out they didn't turn into the conflict generators they were sold as. Imagine that.



Considering you made a point about banning them on your treaty with PL means that they were indeed up to level of creating that conflict.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Rex Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2300 - 2015-03-05 12:36:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:

Who's talking about holding it? You don't build an apartment building on your game preserve...

What a point of grief then? You came, take station.. you leave, you lose station. :)


We freeport it.


I can't help but think that creating a deliberate DMZ of unclaimed systems around space that you actually want to own would be an unintended consequence of how this rebalance is currently planned.

If anyone comes to take it to stage into your actual space, you just harass them with timers until they give up in frustration. It only takes two minutes a day to reinforce anything, after all.


Offence is the best defence. You dont go sit around station to wait for the trollceptor. You activly troll all surrounding coalitions during primetime. Keep them busy on their hometurf.