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CCP thank you for our amazing new T3 destroyers, but...
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Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-03-02 18:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Ncc 1709 wrote:
after killing a few. I have to admit that the T3 dezies are op. its take a lot of effort to catch one if he don't want to be catch or a lucky landing on 0 to one.
hell a 10mn mwd svip can hit 22km/s without implants or wh mechanics.
even just ab fit they go fast enough to make 90% of ships that use missiles useless against them as they simply out run them. and the few that do hit due to the speed bearly scratch.

guns have the same issue. almost nothing can track them at those speeds, so if you do hit them its either luck or their poor pilots.

you mind sharing that fit? I cant seem to get close to that kind of number even with gimmick fits

E: nvm i found it

E2: yeah, so gimmick fits are gimmick fits. Also, unless im completely fubar in this fit, it requires links and implants to reach 25km/s.

youre looking at more of a 10km a second with 20pg for any thing else.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-03-02 19:00:45 UTC
Nami Kumamato wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


no frigate can stand up to them
no two frigates working together can stand up to them
they out-perform interceptors



I think a Destroyer is supposed to do that.

On the other points...I got nothing.



I take your point. I have edited the post to be more specific.

To my mind the svipul makes a better interceptor than interceptors do, in that it's incredibly fast and agile and when it catches its prey it can quite happily stay alive in a way that interceptors cannot.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#23 - 2015-03-02 19:38:55 UTC
Well let's differentiate points.

Interceptors are bubble immune, warp faster (or they should if they don't). Some have viable combat roles. The interceptors are in a decent place.

Assault frigates, some need some love, but not all of them.

Yes the destroyers are good, very good, but their engagement roles still limited mainly because people haven't gone over to them totally yet.

We still have two more to go. The confessor and svipul have filled two pretty good holes in the destroyer class. We'll see what the last two do.

The real ship that has issues against this is the frigate though, hard but not impossible. I'd still take a wait and see stance, but a balance pass wouldn't be unwarranted after some more statistics are taken.

Yaay!!!!
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#24 - 2015-03-02 20:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
As a class of ship, the T3 Destroyers have pretty much taken the top spots on zkillboard now, sitting constantly at #1 and #3:

http://puu.sh/gg9u1/09b82b1cb1.jpg (7 day stats)

Before the Svipul was released, the Confessor was sitting even wiith the Ishtar for kills (with the Sabre constantly sitting in #1), but now with two of the T3 Destroyers out, they are pretty much leading the way. Total kills for those two ships constantly sits at between 17000 - 18000 per week.

Even the Sabre, which has a pretty unique role compared to the T3 Destroyers, has dropped about 1000 kills per week since the Svipul was released; after also dropping about 1000 per week when the Confessor was first released.

Whether that is purely because they are so popular, or because they are so strong; I don't know but it's most likely a combination.

What is certain is that the role for Assault Frigates is disappearing fast.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#25 - 2015-03-02 20:50:24 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
As a class of ship, the T3 Destroyers have pretty much taken the top spots on zkillboard now, sitting constantly at #1 and #3:

http://puu.sh/gg9u1/09b82b1cb1.jpg (7 day stats)

Before the Svipul was released, the Confessor was sitting even wiith the Ishtar for kills (with the Sabre constantly sitting in #1), but now with two of the T3 Destroyers out, they are pretty much leading the way. Total kills for those two ships sits at between 17000 - 18000 per week.

Even the Sabre, which has a pretty unique role compared to the T3 Destroyers, has dropped about 1000 kills per week since the Svipul was released.

Whether that is purely because they are so popular, or because they are so strong; I don't know but it's most likely a combination.

What is certain is that the role for Assault Frigates is disappearing fast.


I was thinking about this last night while talking about assault frigs current role, we didn't see one for it apart from people being loyal to a ship they've flown for ages.

so will it be a nerf to them soon.tm?

or

some love given to assault frigs?

or

working as intended HTFU? they are T3 after all.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#26 - 2015-03-02 21:10:49 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
so will it be a nerf to them soon.tm?

or

some love given to assault frigs?

or

working as intended HTFU? they are T3 after all.


I hope they aren't nerfed. It's probably too early to draw any solid conclusion yet.

After 6 months with all 4 of them in the game it might be clearer.

If anything, some differentiation of role for the assault frigates might be needed so they maintain a purpose in the game.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#27 - 2015-03-02 21:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
HThey do not have a single weakness


Except for ECM, cap neutralizing, webbing, scramming, disrupting as well as turret, damping, target painting and excessive weapon damsge AKA biting on more than they can actually chew.

inb4 the falcon
Buzz Tard
Space Colony
Synergy of Steel
#28 - 2015-03-02 21:48:29 UTC
Handing out tinfoil hats

They are very nice ships indeed and apart from the price tag pretty
newbie friendly, whichmight the the original intention behind them
other then just dealing with the so called "frigate problem", otherwise
T1 destroyers or assault frigs could simply have been buffed.

They are relatively easy to get in, can be flown (and providing fun) for
a decent amount of time while scaling pretty good while the pilot accumulates
skillpoints. Their "Transformer ability" mitigates the rock, paper, scissor
concept to a certain point, so the pilot can concentrate on learning to pilot
a ship properly.

Given the fact that they are also overpriced at the moment - 60%-80% margin
currently (yes, i have an industry alt as well) they will be only a little more
expensive compared to a T2 frig, but with nowhere near the entry barrier SP wise.

Besides -you might already guessed - CCP offers a way for everyone to get isks for
those who can´t (or want) to make the needed amount ISK ingame.

Maybe CCP is in a certain need for both - new players (and money).Take this with
the apropriate amount of salt of course...

But...yes, they are a gift for vets and newbies alike some might benefit more from
it than others.

Now, take off your tinfoil hats, count down from ten, and when i snap my fingers, you
will wake up perfectly refreshed - feeling the strong whish to buy one yourself.

:->
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#29 - 2015-03-02 21:53:01 UTC
Buzz Tard wrote:
Handing out tinfoil hats

feeling the strong whish to buy one yourself.

:->


i now wander the stars seeking a whish to feel so that i may buy one Roll
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-03-03 00:12:23 UTC
I think they are both fairly well balanced sofar.
They are no more "OP" than an AF is to a normal Frig, or a HAC is to a normal Cruiser.. (I'm not gonna mention current T3's cause all agree, they need work, and as such aren't a justification for anything)


They kill frigs, shocking, that's what a Destroyer is SUPPOSED to do. Not just gank Miners :p


Why are they so high on killboards? Well, for one, yes, they are good. Two they are widely used because they are "new" but not overpriced anymore. Three most groups haven't thought up effective counters to them yet.
As times go one people who are having a blast in them will, at least in part, go back to what they were using before, or move on to something else new.. and groups will learn how to deal with them best.


Now all of this is subject to change, they are still new, but I don't see them as overtly OP.. and wouldn't suggest looking at them closely till next year.. seeing how both their usage, and counters evolve.
Zekora Rally
U2EZ
#31 - 2015-03-03 01:02:07 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I will agree with one thing - they feel a little cheap for what they are. I just took a look at current prices and I'll say this much, I felt more comfortable with their cost when they were around the 150-200 mil mark.

You'd pay 150mil for a confessor or svipul? Mkay....
Jenshae Chiroptera
#32 - 2015-03-03 02:01:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They are hilariously overpowered. Given the history of t3 they wont be fixed for another 6 years.
Destroyers in general are cheap and offensive like ... P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#33 - 2015-03-03 02:46:49 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Having used both the svipul and confessor in solo and gang pvp in both lowsec and w-space. Here is what I and my corp found:

They're epic.

Probably a bit too epic.

None of us will ever fly any other frigate sized ship into combat ever again, since:

no two frigates working together can stand up to them.



https://zkillboard.com/kill/43547896/
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-03-03 06:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
Having spent a few weeks on the test server running T3 Dessies through their paces I tend to agree with the OP, and I'd add, I'm also glad to see such things at last being said about the destroyer which until now was like the forgotten middle sister of EVE.

Take into account the percentage that always bridles at anything new, the ones who are sold on their own ships of choice, and the ones who just don't believe anything they read on the internet, and you'll sift it all down to the ones
who actually know.

These dessies have changed things. What, we have yet to really discover. With all the changes coming we may find battle in EVE has been scaled down in ship size just a tad. Yes, frigs need to be brought up a bit, but the BS needs to become the big mac daddy, too. Then the fleet is complete.

(Solo roamers and small gang gankers shouldn't take this post seriously.)

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-03-03 08:48:19 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
As a class of ship, the T3 Destroyers have pretty much taken the top spots on zkillboard now, sitting constantly at #1 and #3:

http://puu.sh/gg9u1/09b82b1cb1.jpg (7 day stats)

Before the Svipul was released, the Confessor was sitting even wiith the Ishtar for kills (with the Sabre constantly sitting in #1), but now with two of the T3 Destroyers out, they are pretty much leading the way. Total kills for those two ships constantly sits at between 17000 - 18000 per week.

Even the Sabre, which has a pretty unique role compared to the T3 Destroyers, has dropped about 1000 kills per week since the Svipul was released; after also dropping about 1000 per week when the Confessor was first released.

Whether that is purely because they are so popular, or because they are so strong; I don't know but it's most likely a combination.

What is certain is that the role for Assault Frigates is disappearing fast.


Thanks for the numbers, that's interesting and initially confirms what I felt. It suggests that everyone else is getting the message that the 'frigate' of choice is the T3 destroyer.

I have read a number of suggestions in the thread about buffing frigates to compensate. To my mind this would be the wrong approach, because it would necessarily cause a balance ripple all the way up the ship classes.

I am personally fine with a class of ship being amazing (for example T3s at gang pvp, Tengus at everything*, marauders at pve, guardians at logistics etc) but there should be a cost that provides a disincentive to abuse the power.

One simple way would be to reduce the chance of small hull-section drops. This would of course tighten supply and therefore eventually increase prices. ISK 50m just feels far too cheap to me. I'm completely happy to put a svipul into any fight at this price - it will emerge victorious more than twice as often as an equivalent AF, so it's actually cheaper in real terms.

In summary:

At present, these ships are twice the cost of an assault frigate, but they are easily more than twice as good. In versatility of fittings alone, let alone the ability to lay down fire on the battlefield.

What is the right price for this imbalance of power?

Would I pay 80m for a Svipul? yes.
Would I pay 120m? maybe
180m? I'd keep it for special occasions.
240m? probably not.

So for me, anything under ~100m is cheap when compared with the alternatives.

Regarding the posting of T3 destroyer kill mails:
I don't think there is one class of ship that has *never* been blown up, so singular examples of kills does not aid the debate.

My experience is that despite the bonuses, long range svipuls and confessors are less effective on the whole than AC and pulse-fitted versions - at least in low-sec FW systems where most combat is point-blank.

I'd be interested to hear about the experiences of people who routinely see success with the long range fits.

Appendix:
* Tengus... don't get me started... but at least the skill loss keeps their numbers in check. And when you kill one, you *know* that that pilot won't be in one for another 5 days - that makes it all worthwhile...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#36 - 2015-03-03 09:29:12 UTC
Anyone with half a brain could see this coming from miles away, anyone apart from CCP it seems.
tony slarp
aye matey
#37 - 2015-03-03 09:33:31 UTC
They only make assault frigates useless, but then again that entire ship line was already roleless and pointless before.
Winters Chill
Unitas Incorporated
#38 - 2015-03-03 09:51:30 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


None of us will ever fly any other frigate sized ship into combat ever again,



Yup.

Confessor is amazing.

However, wait until the Gallente one comes out. It will be a drone boat and since drones are rediculiously overpowered everyone will be flying those. Which would be a shame I feel.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#39 - 2015-03-03 10:03:28 UTC
Of course they are OP. There are some ridiculous killboards out there with these ships. I dislike this power creep - it just leads to lack of diversity.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-03-03 10:07:55 UTC
Winters Chill wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


None of us will ever fly any other frigate sized ship into combat ever again,



Yup.

Confessor is amazing.

However, wait until the Gallente one comes out. It will be a drone boat and since drones are rediculiously overpowered everyone will be flying those. Which would be a shame I feel.



I'm not sure that drones per-se are ridiculously overpowered.

Certainly sentry drones are (and always have been). The super-drones of the gila probably are. Every other kind of drone falls quickly to light weaponry or smartbombs.

my thoughts are that if the gallante T3 destroyer is a drone boat, it will be shunned in favour of the svipul since drones cannot get on target quickly and can be outrun or shot.

Of course if the gallente T3 is a blaster boat with the same elevation in dps as the svipul enjoys then we'll be looking at not-so-glassy cannons that emit 939.17dps of pin-point accurate blaster fire.

Game over.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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