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The fallacy of long term w-space habitation as stated by CCP

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Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-12-02 18:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I don't give a crap over whether or not anyone gives a crap about my opinion.

I have spent enough time using wormholes to get between empire and 0.0 and know well the differences between both. Yes, there are ISK faucets in 0.0 and the problems of 0.0 are well-addressed and well known. This is not about 0.0.

I think what this thread is on it's way to being about, is yet another example of the entitlement mentality of EvE players. Just because CCP did not think their game would be "gamed" into yet another ISK pump (Incursions and leaving the mom alone on site while grinding other sites for example - something that needs to change), does not mean that it should later become a permanent fixture just because the gamesman are used to making it their ISK pump.

The intention of wormhole space and what it was intended to be is well known, the implementation is not close to the intention. CCP has a bad habit of this. Did they not predict that people would grind incursions leaving the sansha mom alone and turn incursions into an ISK faucet?
Did they not predict that wormhole space could be gentrified and converted into an ISK faucet?
Did they not predict 0.0 space becoming a moon goo/sanctum ISK bonanza safely outside a "Ring of Gank" to keep challengers out while everybody on the outside enjoys (for the most part) a NAPfest?


I challenge the intention as stated by CCP, especially in recent times. The logistics required and difficulties encountered of the space as a whole do not support such claims. Now, whether CCP intended the space to be what it is today is irrelevant. Currently there are +15,000 inhabitants (if memory serves me here). Certainly it's not a number comparable to HS or null, but it is a large enough number deserving of recognition of what w-space has become.

Quote:

These are known problems, and the players ask CCP to fix it. CCP then has the task of what? Fixing it without the hue and cry of all those players who have that sense of entitlement whereby changing anything to conform to the original intent will be taken personally by such players, as if CCP has a hard-on personally for them and is out to destroy their playstyle.

Were it up to me and most of the original explorers who were using probes back when they were harder to use (I've been using probes since 2006), it would not even be possible to anchor a POS in WH space at all.

Crucible is good evidence that CCP is taking notice that a lot of players tend to "make house" with the game mechanics and turn everything into an ISK faucet. I hope this trend continues.


That's fine. Were it up to you...no POS anchorable. Fine. As for the rest of us with combined investments of trillions of isk in w-space, at least for a few, we're not going to sit idlly by and thank CCP as they find ways to make life more difficult than it already is without some semblance of BALANCE. Personally, I'm not going to say to CCP "Thank you Sir, may I have another?" when CCP determines that random hot drops of fleets teleported from nullsec is the next "challenge" that we'll have to live with. Granted, it's a far cry from the api intel that is nothing more than a dinner bell for aggressors as it stands now. But, you'll note that in all instances that I have posted in this thread that I'm saying nothing more than BALANCE. Either apply this dinner bell intel to the rest of the game or remove all API intel or balance it all with something else. Balance, Sir, that's all I require.

As for entitlement....yes, I feel entitled to BALANCED features as much as humanly possible. The removal of jumps from api intel for only w-space was clearly unbalanced and could not be seen as anything else when the decision was made. To consider it anything else would indicate a gross failure of understanding about how the game works. Then again, the fact that it was ONLY applied to w-space indicates to me that CCP knew EXACTLY what it was doing and why.

Don't ban me, bro!
Darrow Hill
Vodka and Vice
#22 - 2011-12-02 18:39:43 UTC
+1 for Mr Kidd

CCP Greyscal wrote:
Until we sit down and decide how to properly "balance" this aspect of gameplay...blah blah blah


Without a clear design philosophy, what are you basing these changes on?

This is a terribly half-assed way to balance a game.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#23 - 2011-12-02 18:40:08 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:

I challenge the intention as stated by CCP, especially in recent times. The logistics required and difficulties encountered of the space as a whole do not support such claims. Now, whether CCP intended the space to be what it is today is irrelevant. Currently there are +15,000 inhabitants (if memory serves me here). Certainly it's not a number comparable to HS or null, but it is a large enough number deserving of recognition of what w-space has become.

Quote:

These are known problems, and the players ask CCP to fix it. CCP then has the task of what? Fixing it without the hue and cry of all those players who have that sense of entitlement whereby changing anything to conform to the original intent will be taken personally by such players, as if CCP has a hard-on personally for them and is out to destroy their playstyle.

Were it up to me and most of the original explorers who were using probes back when they were harder to use (I've been using probes since 2006), it would not even be possible to anchor a POS in WH space at all.

Crucible is good evidence that CCP is taking notice that a lot of players tend to "make house" with the game mechanics and turn everything into an ISK faucet. I hope this trend continues.


That's fine. Were it up to you...no POS anchorable. Fine. As for the rest of us with combined investments of trillions of isk in w-space, at least for a few, we're not going to sit idlly by and thank CCP as they find ways to make life more difficult than it already is without some semblance of BALANCE. Personally, I'm not going to say to CCP "Thank you Sir, may I have another?" when CCP determines that random hot drops of fleets teleported from nullsec is the next "challenge" that we'll have to live with. Granted, it's a far cry from the api intel that is nothing more than a dinner bell for aggressors as it stands now. But, you'll note that in all instances that I have posted in this thread that I'm saying nothing more than BALANCE. Either apply this dinner bell intel to the rest of the game or remove all API intel or balance it all with something else. Balance, Sir, that's all I require.

As for entitlement....yes, I feel entitled to BALANCED features as much as humanly possible. The removal of jumps from api intel was clearly unbalanced and could be seen as nothing more.




I understand that there are people who got into the game when wormholes started, and know only that system the way it is. Sadly this is the case with a lot of things and if you see my other posts regarding 0.0 space, "were it up to me" the 0.0 crowd would have a lot to complain about IF they only knew that way.

"Balance" to you is having things the way they are and you ask for some changes in the way the API handles WH stats. I actually agree with you on the API thing and to be honest, since CCP has not really made any final decisions on what wormhole space has become compared to the original intent, if they decided to let players build their own gates in WH systems I would be for it. You see, either let wormhole space be a total no-mans land (no POSes, no API stats, NOTZINK!) OR let players completely civilize it and put in gates, enhancement, iHubs, etc.

It's the in-between that is bothersome, and it leads to threads like this very one we are posting in, and once players become entrenched into handling content in a certain way, revisiting it towards the original intent is much more difficult.

Crucible is not easy for a LOT of players. If you want balance, I think CCP is screwing most of us, and since we willingly subscribe, we already condone that behavior. Some of us get a reacharound and some don't.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#24 - 2011-12-02 18:46:05 UTC
Listening to all these leet "PvP"ers argue back and forth and whine over their "farming" habits amuses me.

Maybe CCP is making progress.

+1 for the tears
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-12-02 18:50:59 UTC
Opertone wrote:
Seriously CCP has to do this.

A new capital ship, able to cloak, refit and refuel ships, as well as provide basic cloning support.

Ship remains vulnerable when it operates, but can stay cloaked in other case. This ship should serve as mobile warp base.

Not strong or solid like pos, but large enough to have ships docked to it outside. It should make the life of colonists possible, make logistics simpler.

One can change ammo, run ammunition assembly, refit, repair, recharge cap, produce nano-paste. Can have corporate storage and system wide scanning. Cloaks if in danger.

This Capital must be below POS in price to buy one, running costs should be minimized. It should offer habitation for pilots and harbor for flleet. Have very basic recycling and ammunition/drone assembly..

Why not just let a rorqual fit a hictor bubbler?
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
#26 - 2011-12-02 18:51:12 UTC
CCP just needs to rephrase their goals. They should be to keep wspace "dynamic" and not static, it should be a revolving door of inhabitance like it is now.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#27 - 2011-12-02 18:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Comrade Commizzar
Darrow Hill wrote:
+1 for Mr Kidd

CCP Greyscal wrote:
Until we sit down and decide how to properly "balance" this aspect of gameplay...blah blah blah


Without a clear design philosophy, what are you basing these changes on?

This is a terribly half-assed way to balance a game.


I hate to interrupt your moaning, but I haven't seen CCP perform any "balancing" in this game in six years. Of course they have made numerous arbitrary changes and tweaks from time to time, but "balanced" changes?

Really, you overestimate the amount of work they put into this game.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#28 - 2011-12-02 18:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
blah blah blah...

Were it up to me and most of the original explorers who were using probes back when they were harder to use (I've been using probes since 2006), it would not even be possible to anchor a POS in WH space at all.


Good news Sparky... it's not up to you. The game's evolving whether you like it or not. Wormholes aren't a side trip, they're a way of life in Eve for many now.

You'll notice Mr. Kidd is ultimately asking for less free intel in wormholes, not more. He's ultiamtely asking for an increase in difficulty, not a decrease. For intel to be sought out and earned, not handed to you on the back of an API.

Pretty much renders your whole babbling just that... babbling.

The original intention of wormholes is no longer valid. They've evolved into something more. They make your empire null look like Hello Kitty in Space. You've travelled through wormholes. Gee, grats. Guess you're an authority now. Looks to me like you're just another null-bunny butt-hurt that his null space isn't the ultimate endgame of Eve anymore.


I applaud you for your Angst.

Quote:
So, CCP, stop telling us w-space was never intended for long term habitation.


Whatever its intended for is irrelevant, if you check around LOTS of people lose their WH everyday. Its short term for most.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#29 - 2011-12-02 19:00:58 UTC
It's pretty obvious that many solo, small corp players would like a piece of space to call their own. Why CCP resists this concept is boggling to me. Roleplaying the space pioneer is what got me interested in EvE to begin with.

It doesn't have to be safe space at all...but it does have to be viable to live there long term. There's subscriber money to be made here without hurting the PvP concept the game is built on. CCP seems obsessed with limiting solo/small corp activities as much as they can. Many folks don't have the playtime to do justice to large group play. Many players just don't enjoy the politics that go along with big corps, or even small corps.

How does offering non-safe, unexplored space territory in which folks can roleplay space pioneers hurt the game?
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#30 - 2011-12-02 19:07:58 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I understand that there are people who got into the game when wormholes started, and know only that system the way it is. Sadly this is the case with a lot of things and if you see my other posts regarding 0.0 space, "were it up to me" the 0.0 crowd would have a lot to complain about IF they only knew that way.

"Balance" to you is having things the way they are and you ask for some changes in the way the API handles WH stats. I actually agree with you on the API thing and to be honest, since CCP has not really made any final decisions on what wormhole space has become compared to the original intent, if they decided to let players build their own gates in WH systems I would be for it. You see, either let wormhole space be a total no-mans land (no POSes, no API stats, NOTZINK!) OR let players completely civilize it and put in gates, enhancement, iHubs, etc.

It's the in-between that is bothersome, and it leads to threads like this very one we are posting in, and once players become entrenched into handling content in a certain way, revisiting it towards the original intent is much more difficult.

Crucible is not easy for a LOT of players. If you want balance, I think CCP is screwing most of us, and since we willingly subscribe, we already condone that behavior. Some of us get a reacharound and some don't.



It's the "in between", as you call it, that is the entire essence of wormhole living! The frontier style well removed from the mega-alliance controlled "other" end game of Eve. The ability for a corp to stake their own claim, their own territory and make it last... and the ability for someone else to come along and take it all away. The personal ship battles where you get up close with your opponent and have at it, not the blobs of super caps registering on your screen moments before you wake up in your clone. What you're proposing does two things, either way. First of all, you destroy the colonized frontier lifestyle that makes wormholes so well done as they are. Second, you shift nearly sole control of valued space to the null sec mega-alliances, be it either by the forced abandonement of wormhole systems due to lack of ability to colonize or due to the over-running by mega-alliances that now would no longer have to deal with logistical difficulties they're incapable of handling.

Either way, for a large population of us... you break Eve.

You have your chosen prefered lifestyle in null sec. Go live it. We have ours. Let us live it.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-12-02 19:40:39 UTC
You started out with a lot of "whine" at the beginning of the OP so I was going to just tell you to shut the **** up...but then I actually read your whole post.

I agree...

+1

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
ohno riceagain
Too Drunk Export Services Inc.
#32 - 2011-12-02 20:00:56 UTC
John DaiSho wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
The thing is... even though the original intent may not have been to have wormholes have permanent inhabitants, the fact of the matter is that they do now, and if you really step back and look at it it's an amazingly wonder aspect of Eve gameplay, and vitally needed in a game where the "other" end game is the mega-alliance cotrolled and dominated world of empire null space. Where null is the mega-cities of Eve, wormholes are the frontier regions that a certain few throughout the history of our species dared to centure into and colonize. Wormholes are the "out of Africa" of our ancient ancestors. They're the "New World" Columbus accidentally bumped into. They're the unsettled west, the gold rush to California. Not all things happen by intent, but by our very nature.

It's high time that folks at CCP at least do nothing more than acknowledge that they, and to hell with anyone that disagrees with me on this, they got wormholes RIGHT! They frakking nailed it, at least for the population looking for that frontier style of staking your own claim and MAKING IT STICK!. We all don't want to kiss the ring of the Godfathers of Null, regardless of what incentives or punishments are imposed on us. We LIKE the challenges there are with the limited and varying accesses, the different groups you'll run into on a daily basis, the lack of local and free intel. Acknoledge this CCP! You ******* did it right, and it's beautiful! Acknowledge you did it so well that we HAVE to live here permanently! Gods, if I didn't have to go to Empire for materials and fuels and to sell things I'd probably never go, you did it so well!

I hope Mr. Kidd will forgive me with a bit of disagreement with him on the removal of API jump data... I kind of like it. It adds to wormholes by subtraction. Adds a little more frontier, a little more danger. With this particular change, we'll be fine I think.

But C'mon CCP... embrace what you've created and what it's turned to. This is the best damned part of the game. Tell us you see this, you recognize it, and you'll respect at least our rights and abilities to stay and make it work through the challenges the rest of the game does have or need to face.

Tell us you see this, and you understand and accept it. That's all I ask. Keep it in mind with future decisions. We don't want it softened, nerfed, made easier... just respected as our way of life in Eve.


I know that i disagree with this guy more often than not but I just have to /sign this.

o/ John



I too agree, been there lived that and he is right.

At least ack you did something good CCP and improve upon it.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#33 - 2011-12-02 20:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
blah blah blah...

Were it up to me and most of the original explorers who were using probes back when they were harder to use (I've been using probes since 2006), it would not even be possible to anchor a POS in WH space at all.


Good news Sparky... it's not up to you. The game's evolving whether you like it or not. Wormholes aren't a side trip, they're a way of life in Eve for many now.

You'll notice Mr. Kidd is ultimately asking for less free intel in wormholes, not more. He's ultiamtely asking for an increase in difficulty, not a decrease. For intel to be sought out and earned, not handed to you on the back of an API.

Pretty much renders your whole babbling just that... babbling.

The original intention of wormholes is no longer valid. They've evolved into something more. They make your empire null look like Hello Kitty in Space. You've travelled through wormholes. Gee, grats. Guess you're an authority now. Looks to me like you're just another null-bunny butt-hurt that his null space isn't the ultimate endgame of Eve anymore.



If you are trying to hate me or something, give it up, junior. It's only a game and you are merely words on a screen.

My lifestyle in this game, if it could be called that - that could be its own thread.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#34 - 2011-12-02 20:10:23 UTC
Messoroz wrote:
CCP just needs to rephrase their goals. They should be to keep wspace "dynamic" and not static, it should be a revolving door of inhabitance like it is now.


Like 0.0 you mean?
Oh wait...
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#35 - 2011-12-02 20:13:34 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Messoroz wrote:
CCP just needs to rephrase their goals. They should be to keep wspace "dynamic" and not static, it should be a revolving door of inhabitance like it is now.


Like 0.0 you mean?
Oh wait...


Not sure what you're getting at. Tonight, I guarantee you, someone somewhere will be facing being evicted from their wormhole... probably multiple someones. It's a very dynamic lifestyle.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#36 - 2011-12-02 20:58:03 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

It's the "in between", as you call it, that is the entire essence of wormhole living! The frontier style well removed from the mega-alliance controlled "other" end game of Eve. The ability for a corp to stake their own claim, their own territory and make it last... and the ability for someone else to come along and take it all away.


Exactly. When the gold rush started at Sutter's Mill, thousands of people picked up and headed to the California area in search of a lucky strike. Most of them came in with the shirt on their backs and not much else.

If you weren't not strong enough to take and defend your 'grub stake', you were probably going to lose it to another, more ambitious prospector. The only thing to do was (and is) tough it out -- either through honest, hard work or sneaking in to jump someone's claim.

Wormhole space is no picnic. You're in deep space, at the corner of 'No' and 'Where' (to borrow a favorite quote), with pirates, raiders and claim-jumpers at every turn. If you can't protect what you've got, or you're not willing to do whatever it takes to get more of it, you're not going to last more than ten minutes.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Turkatron
#37 - 2011-12-02 21:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Turkatron
Mr Kidd wrote:
W-space is not a carebear environment.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. It is the best carebear environment and if you haven't figured out why then YDIW. It is absolutely possible to make 2-400m per person depending on sites and market fluctuation in an hour of pve with absolutely no risk to losing your pve ships if you know what you are doing. Wspace pve was and still is the safest pve in the game, safer than highsec even. If you know what you are doing it is impossible to get caught.

I lived in a C5 for about 6months with just 2 other players. Infact, wspace is such a carebear environment that we kicked the previous owners out of the C5 without using caps and just 3 people in my corp. We almost successfully ransomed their escape also, unfortunately they moved out in a different timezone while we were at work.

We moved in with the intent of doing lots of pvp in an environment where you couldn't be hot-dropped and could more effectively avoid blobs. However, most of the pvp we found was ganking pvers and the occasional run-in with other hunters. With the sparsely populated wspace we found ourselves going for days without finding targets. So we eventually got bored and left wspace.

Mr Kidd wrote:
There is a quantifiable imbalance of intel available for w-space. If you can't/won't recognize that, then who gives a crap about your opinion?


Wspace intel is way overpowered. However, even without the api, it is possible to know when someone comes into your wh and in some cases know before they actually enter your wh so long as you have an active character inside your wh. Also, because of the nature of wspace, you can make many assumptions about the API data that just does not hold up in any other type of space. The API mostly serves hunting, it makes it possible to open a new wh and immediately cycle it without taking the time to scan/probe the system. In this way you can cycle through the vast number of uninhabited systems and not waste time scanning them. The only advantage it gives to you for defending your own wh is knowing about activity while you are logged out.
Blood Fart
Rock Hard Productions
#38 - 2011-12-02 21:45:29 UTC
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2011-12-02 22:08:33 UTC
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.


In this particular situation, ensuring that w-space starbase logistics would be "balanced" after this change would first require us to have a long discussion about how difficult w-space logistics should be in the first place, which would likely end up spilling across into a lot of other areas of w-space mechanics. Given how ingenious and adaptable w-space dwellers have proved to be in the past, and how minor this adjustment seemed when compared to the difficulties of setting up shop in w-space in the first place, we figured that the majority of these players would simply roll with the changes regardless, so we postponed the big balancing discussion until we have time to look at it properly, and implemented the starbase changes as-is in the meantime.



Obviously we're not in a position to make authoritative statements about things that will occur in the future (due to a lack of time-travel technology), but our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.
Turkatron
#40 - 2011-12-03 00:18:59 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.

Open up existing pos features such as moon mining. I'm not for making it as good or better than nullsec highends but it would encourage more people to populate wspace. Making some wh systems more profitable than others through propagation of different moon mins would encourage player driven content (pvp).

CCP Greyscale wrote:
our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.

Good, wspace is everything I wish nullsec was. Wspace highlights a very clear need for POS overhaul. POS mechanics are severely lacking. Mainly permissions and hangar divisions. We never expanded past 4 people in my corp due to lack of fine grained POS access and too few hangar divisions to help keep our stuff separate. Also, anything to make filling wh systems with LOTS of people unattractive is a plus. Wormhole gate mass restrictions helps some with this as is. Part of what makes wh space fun (for me) is the small gang viability. Also, if wh economics scaled more poorly with the size of a corp or alliance you would see less population in each system but more population spread out across the many many empty systems. This would create more opportunity for player interaction.