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Sojourn: The Amarr

Author
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#161 - 2015-03-20 03:05:25 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

I've not heard "the second group" use it. It is not a common word used even among conservatives.

The True Amarr are God's Chosen. The rest of us, by our sin of turning from God, are impure. We can return to God, but our past crimes are only forgiven, not forgotten.

There are those who think that any kind of acknowledgement of natural inequalities among people is an insult, and so it doesn't matter if one says subhuman, lesser, impure, or whatever as anyone that wishes to believe that all people are equal will find all of these offensive. But humans are not all equal and in Amarr we do not try to pretend otherwise.

Hm. Thank you, Lieutenant.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#162 - 2015-03-20 13:02:22 UTC
Ignoring that sub human has implications on the questioning of the very status as a human being and being part of the human race sounds rather bigoted to me.

There is a difference between equality before God, and animalistic comparisons.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Entry Four

One term I've run across a couple times, lately: "subhuman." This, it turns out, is maybe a case of the universal translator not getting all the nuances across.

"Subhuman" is one of those words that strikes a heathen foreigner like me, on first hearing, as a slur. It maybe doesn't help that it seems to be mostly used by the most conservative of the faithful, who seemingly don't much care whether foreigners take offense or not.

It turns out that it's a sort of ... term of art? At least in certain circles.

It doesn't mean "less than human," or even "less-human."

Rather, it means, essentially, "lesser human," or "lower human," one who is not of the elect, the Amarr.

This might not be all that much more comforting, being as most of the orthodox seem to believe such beings stand condemned before God by default, and will be judged harshly, and cast from God's kingdom in the hereafter into whatever torments await.

It's apparently not intended to be a slight on our status as "humans," though.


I have only heard two people using that terminology.

It never was said in any laudatory fashion.


It wouldn't be, would it?

It seems to be essentially synonymous with "heathen," plus a pile of theological and existential implications.

It seems to be more a technical term than a slur, but it's certainly not complimentary. In the eyes of orthodox Amarr, it seems we heathens are not exactly admirable people.

What's to admire about the fallen and presumptively damned?



I meant laudatory as an euphemism, actually...

I have seen it used as a racial slur actually, with the strong implication that the sub humans in questions were not worthy of any interest.
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#163 - 2015-03-20 13:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizage
Samira Kernher wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
One ... question I do have on this subject.

I've learned since my initial posting that for many Amarr, "lesser" status is not lifted, even on conversion. There seems to be some disagreement about it, however.

There's the version that claims only the True Amarr are the elect, and the rest of us are "subhumans" whether or not we've been Reclaimed. That seems to be (1) the sort most likely to use the term and also (2) the sort Pilot Rella is speaking of.

Then there's the option that the "elect" include the Amarrian faithful, generally, and only heathens are "subhuman."

Does the second group use that terminology, though?


I've not heard "the second group" use it. It is not a common word used even among conservatives.

The True Amarr are God's Chosen. The rest of us, by our sin of turning from God, are impure. We can return to God, but our past crimes are only forgiven, not forgotten.

There are those who think that any kind of acknowledgement of natural inequalities among people is an insult, and so it doesn't matter if one says subhuman, lesser, impure, or whatever as anyone that wishes to believe that all people are equal will find all of these offensive. But humans are not all equal and in Amarr we do not try to pretend otherwise.



Recognizing that Human beings are inherently diverse and different in many way's is one thing Ms. Kernher. Claiming that, the difference denotes a position of hierarchy within the species itself is something entirely different, and is frankly why most people I think I seeing an issue with this particular entry. Myself included.

This is especially dubious when the "traits" of our position of the hierarchy are drawn solely from a set of beliefs or dogma that isn't held by the entire cluster. (I.e. Longer legs are advantageous to longer strides.)
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#164 - 2015-03-20 14:44:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
So, looking a this with less-depressed eyes....

U'tah Arareb wrote:
... the slur "sub-human" is a mistranslation ... in it's proper context the original word is not meant to be insulting....

Unfortunately, there are those who will use this bastardized version of the word to wound or insult..
for that I am sorry.

All the time you were originally explaining, Ms. Arareb, I didn't realize that you saw it as a slur, yourself. I'm sorry.

Samira Kerher wrote:
It is not a common word used even among conservatives.


So, it seems the term "subhuman" is indeed a corruption (through mistranslation) of an Amarrian theological concept, rarely used even among orthodox Amarr.

Inferring from context, it seems like something that would be recognized as insulting, and therefore avoided, even if its theological grounding is believed sound. At best, even used strictly among the orthodox faithful, its effect would be to rub the nose of someone like Lt. Kernher in her once-fallen status.

In other words, Ms. Rella's ... pretty much correct. It's the intentional use of a mistranslated concept. It's an attack, after all. A slur.

A slur that can be defended by those who use it as purely descriptive-- but I guess any slur can be defended that way, and yet remain a slur.

"It's just what you are...."

I have been careless. I apologize.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#165 - 2015-03-20 15:25:01 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
But humans are not all equal and in Amarr we do not try to pretend otherwise.


I will gladly prove my superiority to any ethnic Amarrian pilot in a fight to the death with fire-axes in 1.8m of heavy snow.

Humour aside, Samira is right - but only insofar as you believe there is a single pattern that is superior. People are like any other tool - they are fit for a purpose. Find your purpose and you become infinitely more "superior". Which is why I'll never understand those who believe in the supremacy of unplanned and unengineered humans over those of us designed, bred and trained for a purpose.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Bourbon Limoges
Doomheim
#166 - 2015-03-20 15:51:09 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Humour aside, Samira is right - but only insofar as you believe there is a single pattern that is superior. People are like any other tool - they are fit for a purpose. Find your purpose and you become infinitely more "superior". Which is why I'll never understand those who believe in the supremacy of unplanned and unengineered humans over those of us designed, bred and trained for a purpose.


By "fit for a purpose," is it your contention that, "like any other tool," people are fit for a single purpose? Or is there an implicit "at any given time" around your use of "a?"

Do we then order the merits of purpose? Should "tools" fit for the single purpose of hearing the Great Golden Space Noodle exercise exclusive control over the social and political economy of society? Is it then the responsibility of all the other "tools" to "tolerate" their location within the Great Box, so as not to endanger the proper ordering of "tools" as promulgated by said Great Golden Space Noodle (who has, after all, gone to the trouble of reaching across All Creation to insert Its Noodle Tip into the applicable openings of Its Chosen Tools)?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#167 - 2015-03-20 16:48:27 UTC
Bourbon Limoges wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Humour aside, Samira is right - but only insofar as you believe there is a single pattern that is superior. People are like any other tool - they are fit for a purpose. Find your purpose and you become infinitely more "superior". Which is why I'll never understand those who believe in the supremacy of unplanned and unengineered humans over those of us designed, bred and trained for a purpose.


By "fit for a purpose," is it your contention that, "like any other tool," people are fit for a single purpose? Or is there an implicit "at any given time" around your use of "a?"

Do we then order the merits of purpose? Should "tools" fit for the single purpose of hearing the Great Golden Space Noodle exercise exclusive control over the social and political economy of society? Is it then the responsibility of all the other "tools" to "tolerate" their location within the Great Box, so as not to endanger the proper ordering of "tools" as promulgated by said Great Golden Space Noodle (who has, after all, gone to the trouble of reaching across All Creation to insert Its Noodle Tip into the applicable openings of Its Chosen Tools)?


In the State we had a far-reaching program that attempted to create people with a pre-disposition to excellence in specific fields of endeavour. I'm certainly not qualified to speak to the global success of that program, but in my specific experience, I feel that I was well-served in my former capacity as professional suspicious bastard for Suvee Corporation.

As for the role of religion within the Amarrian society - that's a matter for them. They find it relevant and the marketplace of ideas will judge their wisdom in this matter. Certainly it's none of my business how they regulate their internal affairs. This, I think, is an attitude that more should adopt - be more concerned with your own people. How they think, act and feel. How they behave. This is your province. The hearts of your kirjuun are your field - this harvest is what will feed you and you should tend it carefully.

The only thing you should care about outsiders is their actions. Only their actions affect you and yours - specifically how they act towards you. What a waste of energy it is to discuss the intentions of others - how can you truly understand them?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#168 - 2015-03-20 16:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Ignoring Limoges's offensive language...

Yes, it is a responsibility. It is better to find value and purpose in the place you are in than to covet the places of others.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Inferring from context, it seems like something that would be recognized as insulting, and therefore avoided, even if its theological grounding is believed sound. At best, even used strictly among the orthodox faithful, its effect would be to rub the nose of someone like Lt. Kernher in her once-fallen status.


Being called subhuman is only an insult if you are taking pride in being one. The greater insult is being born of a fallen people, not in being reminded that you are one.

Vizage wrote:
This is especially dubious when the "traits" of our position of the hierarchy are drawn solely from a set of beliefs or dogma that isn't held by the entire cluster. (I.e. Longer legs are advantageous to longer strides.)


It doesn't matter what is "held by the rest of the cluster". It is a sin to not hold those beliefs; it is a crime to not adhere to that dogma. Those who commit crime cannot be considered at the same level of those who have not. If you don't like that, oh well, you'll do as you will as you always do. But this is a discussion about Amarr, and as we see it spiritual impropriety is a failing as clear as any degenerative physical condition.
U'tah Arareb
Doomheim
#169 - 2015-03-20 17:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: U'tah Arareb
I do view it as a slur, but that's mostly based on my upbringing. My mother only used the correct Amarrian word in my presence.
The others I have seen and heard use the bastardized form since my re-birth as capsuleer have been monsters like Naupilius.

So understandably that's what I equate that form of the word with.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#170 - 2015-03-20 17:18:50 UTC
U'tah Arareb wrote:
I do view it as a slur, but that's mostly based on my upbringing. My mother only used the correct Amarrian word in my presence.
The others I have seen and heard use the bastardized form since my re-birth as capsuleer have been monsters like Naupilius.

So understandably that's what I equate that form of the word with.

Understood. Thank you, Ms. Arareb.

I'm not sure I'd describe my primary source on this as a monster, but definitely as a passionately orthodox Amarrian.

Samira Kernher wrote:
It is better to find value and purpose in the place you are in than to covet the places of others.

...

Being called subhuman is only an insult if you are taking pride in being one. The greater insult is being born of a fallen people, not in being reminded that you are one.

Thank you, again, for your perspective, Lieutenant.

... I ... think I understand what you are saying. I do not know whether being a "subhuman" is something I take pride in, exactly.

I suppose I don't take it as an insult that I was born one. And ... what I know of where my background comes from, I mostly like. These I know well, and they make sense to me: Achur ways, Achur ideas.

... tch.

I guess I do take pride in it.

Of course, those are the same ways and ideas I'm trying to provide myself alternatives to.

Perhaps I'd better move on to a different topic.
Bourbon Limoges
Doomheim
#171 - 2015-03-20 17:39:25 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
In the State we had a far-reaching program that attempted to create people with a pre-disposition to excellence in specific fields of endeavour. I'm certainly not qualified to speak to the global success of that program, but in my specific experience, I feel that I was well-served in my former capacity as professional suspicious bastard for Suvee Corporation.


Caldari capsuleers appear to have the ability to select new fields of specialization. It is very fortunate for them that the State saw some benefit to freedom of choice in that regard.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

As for the role of religion within the Amarrian society - that's a matter for them. They find it relevant and the marketplace of ideas will judge their wisdom in this matter. Certainly it's none of my business how they regulate their internal affairs. This, I think, is an attitude that more should adopt - be more concerned with your own people.


As a consequence of Amarr's cult of the Great Golden Space Noodle, large groups of Minmatar and other enslaved people (or perhaps I should say "tools") flee the borders of Amarr. When members of one society are forced to flee to other societies in order to escape atrocities, the basis of those atrocities (in this case, Amarr's racist little cult) cease to be "internal" matters.

If I disassociate myself from the suffering of the enslaved as "people," and instead treat them as "tools" - Amarr's racist little cult is dropping its "tools" into other nations. It then falls upon those nations to pick up the racist cult's "tools." That creates social and economic friction, which in turn leads to a degradation of efficiency. Even under this despicably dehumanized formulation, the State is concerned about degradations of efficiency, yes? It therefore also has reason to be concerned with Amarr's racist little cult.

The jargon of "tool" is, however, useful for something.

I can certainly agree that this "sojourn" is the product of one tool, intended for the benefit of other tools. Well done, Sojourn Apologist Tool. You have given some racists a platform from which to appear more deserving of "understanding" than the Blood Raider who describes their shared cult with significantly more authenticity.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#172 - 2015-03-20 18:47:53 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

I'm not sure I'd describe my primary source on this as a monster, but definitely as a passionately orthodox Amarrian.


Both my own sources are sinners, and you already have met one of them. Monster is... a lot more subjective as a descriptive. Some might say they are.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#173 - 2015-03-20 19:40:30 UTC
Bourbon Limoges wrote:

Caldari capsuleers appear to have the ability to select new fields of specialization. It is very fortunate for them that the State saw some benefit to freedom of choice in that regard.


I'm not aware of anyone being specifically bred to be a so-called "infomorph". My batch was engineered specifically for a shortfall in personnel for orbital security. Most of my batch are still happily employed in said function - for which they are very well suited. The ability for any given capsuleer to excel within many niches probably says more about the very low aggregate standard of efficiency within the capsuleer community than anything else.

Bourbon Limoges wrote:
As a consequence of Amarr's cult of the Great Golden Space Noodle, large groups of Minmatar and other enslaved people (or perhaps I should say "tools") flee the borders of Amarr. When members of one society are forced to flee to other societies in order to escape atrocities, the basis of those atrocities (in this case, Amarr's racist little cult) cease to be "internal" matters.

If I disassociate myself from the suffering of the enslaved as "people," and instead treat them as "tools" - Amarr's racist little cult is dropping its "tools" into other nations. It then falls upon those nations to pick up the racist cult's "tools." That creates social and economic friction, which in turn leads to a degradation of efficiency. Even under this despicably dehumanized formulation, the State is concerned about degradations of efficiency, yes? It therefore also has reason to be concerned with Amarr's racist little cult.


Refugees entering the State will generally find their economic level. Those who work hard and adapt will prosper, to the mutual benefit of individual, family and State, or they will fail - causing the State very little harm indeed.

Bourbon Limoges wrote:
The jargon of "tool" is, however, useful for something.

I can certainly agree that this "sojourn" is the product of one tool, intended for the benefit of other tools. Well done, Sojourn Apologist Tool. You have given some racists a platform from which to appear more deserving of "understanding" than the Blood Raider who describes their shared cult with significantly more authenticity.


Say again? Your signal to noise ratio dropped alarmingly in that last panel. If you find you can restate your point in an efficient or at least an amusing manner, I might expend the effort to address it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Bourbon Limoges
Doomheim
#174 - 2015-03-20 20:00:20 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

My batch was engineered specifically.

....

Refugees entering the State will generally find their economic level.


Do you see the problem? You may concede that engineering a labor force for specific tasks is no more efficient than allowing the labor force to "generally find its economic level;" or, you may concede that a refugee crisis introduces inefficiencies into the Caldari economic paradigm.

Which do you prefer conceding?
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#175 - 2015-03-20 21:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizage
He needs to concede niether. Batch production is a population enhancement measure to ensure our relatively smaller State can keep up economically and militaristically with the larger empires. It does not represent our entire net births, nor does represent the preferred model.

It is as it has always been primarily a method of maintaining population growth (as any refugee's we take in also serves.) The additional benefit being we can specify traits to fill economic needs. Such as Mr. Tuulinen, his batch was suited for orbital security but he himself is no longer of such employment. Why? Because our batching program serves State population firstly not economic needs.

K. Amsel
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#176 - 2015-03-20 22:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Thank you, Amsel-haani. What the good Msr does not understand is that the Caldari Economy is not a centrally controlled command economy. Although my batch were specifically engineered for Orbital Security, only 36% actually found employment in that field (out of a target of 30%) because the children were extensively vocationally tested as they grew up and those found wanting were reassigned to where their talents were better suited.

Always have a plan, but always adapt to reality.

So, yes, Amsel-haani is right that there is no contradiction, because the two methods (Engineering a Batch Vs Allowing Refugees to find their level) represent two alternate ways of finding the best uses for existing material that can be used in parallel, and not two exclusive wholesale solutions.

HOWEVER - This discussion was about Amarrian religion, not about the Tubechild program.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#177 - 2015-03-20 23:20:54 UTC
I don't think it's about the religion per se but more the experience of living with Amarr in their home territory. I'm curious how really in depth she goes as I have had some, er, interesting experiences myself.

-Eran
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#178 - 2015-03-20 23:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Indeed you have. I wonder if I should take her to Mercy's Keep to see the current residents.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#179 - 2015-03-20 23:35:52 UTC
Mercy's Keep has other residents than that brute of a Khanid? If there's a possibility I can avoid that man I might stop by the Solarium sometime.

-Eran
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#180 - 2015-03-20 23:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Hey now. He's not such a brute once you get to know him. He's a brute with a purpose.

But no, he is managing the main Kihtaled Chapter back in the Kingdom. The Athran Chapter is under the command of his Seneschal, Hotuban Klimut. Not much more pleasant but a fair bit less intimidating. If Grand Master Otheiran were a rumbling volcano, Master Hotuban would be a chilly, silent mountain.

Although, alas, I do believe the Solarium might have been re-purposed by now. You should visit and see! They aren't particularly friendly to capsuleers, however. Or non-believers. Or anyone that isn't them or already respected by them. On second thought, bad idea.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu