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Rise, using quantitative methods to aid in rebalancing is fantastic, but I question the relevance of evaluating balance by total PVP damage. Surely on your alts you have tried going solo or small gang in a BS/BC recently? And don't you agree that it is substantially less fun to fly these ships now than pre-Rubicon, primarily because of the slower warp?

I'd say, base warp speed of BS/BC platforms was hit too hard, and they would be much more enjoyable to fly if the base warp speed was closer to the cruiser level.

I am in complete disagreement with your conclusions towards Battleships. Using them still feels terrible, and the speed differential was, in my opinion, wholly adequately met with the large differences in align time and maximum warp speed.

With consideration to the cited damage application data, it continues to seem like you've created an inconvenience that exists solely for the sake of making Battleships and Battlecruisers inconvenient to use; surely the Battleship's combination of firepower and durability (which come at the cost of generally poor damage application, and low on and off grid maneuverability, while generally being an easy-to-hit class) aren't so excessive when compared to the firepower, EHP, and damage mitigation abilities of Heavy Assault Cruisers to warrant a ~10+ second delay in arrival between every warp?

And Battlecruisers... sheesh, what's right about battlecruisers?

The damage by type is telling.

Light blue is certainly drones (you can see the Ishtar dominance in HACs). Dark blue is hybrids (Strategic Cruiser showing Tengus), Orange is lasers (this graph was generated before the Svipull was deployed, so it's only showing the confessor), we can only guess at the remainder although yellow is likely projectiles. From what we see battleships show a strong preference towards drones (Dominix) with hybrids (Megathron), lasers (Foxcat/Fauxcat), and projectiles (TFI/Macherial) being reasonably well balanced against each other.

I can understand the argument that battleships are thus balanced because the class is well balanced against itself. I can even accept the argument that whatever problems battleships have is an issue with ships and weapons outside of the battleships class (bombs). However the source of complaints about battleships is two fold: fleet balance and small engagement balance. I can accept that fleet balance is battleships is in a good place, perhaps the best of any other class of ships (the dominix has a preference, but all battleships carry fairly sizable drone bays which means drones will naturally be over represented in that class) however what evidence exists that battleships are being used in groups of smaller then 100 or more? Who's offensive roaming (especially in null sec with it's huge systems) in battleships anymore? Is this really a class that's only meant to be deployed in mass fleet battles, or used for home system defense?

That's the problem with battleships. Bombs are a huge issue for battleships fleets because the nature of timers is that everyone knows when to third-party a battleship doctrine engagement with bombers. But bombers aren't an issue for the gang that wants to add a triple-rep hyperion or a torp raven for additional kill power; is there any evidence that this class usage of a battleship even exists? Because this is the same problem that Battlecruiers (both kinds!) are going through right now. BCs haven't been a fleet doctrine since the fall of the Drake, and are thus a hull size focused almost entirely around small engagements, and we can plainly see what effect the warp changes have had on their usage. Battleships suffer the same, although the issue of bombs and a higher representation of fleets overshadow this problem.

Agree with the proposed balance changes, but would like to see much more work done on T1 module rebalancing. This includes taking a look at manufacturing costs of T1 modules vs reprocessing value and overabundance of meta modules.

T1 modules should be the "standard" fit for all ships and where module/ship balancing should start - not based on T2 modules.

T2 modules should be more powerful, but also more difficult to fit, requiring significant compromises in the ship fit, ie. able to fit for max damage or max tank, but not both simultaneously. Metas should always be more expensive and less available than T1, easier to fit than T2 - stats somewhere between the two. Faction and officer gear should be rare and massively expensive - order of magnitude or more, with only slight advantage over T2 (small percentages add up quickly).

application is damage

Is there any way that we can get a graph that is labeled with what weapon type each of the colors represents?

application is not damage . Application can be varied based on external factors . Dedicated webs and TP etc etc . Damage is based on the gun and ships bonuses .

With the above comment you have clearly stated ur a newb and have no idea of what damage is and application is .

don't be a tit!! , paper dps is useless without applied damage that is the point.

I would like to see a version of this graph with smartbomb damage removed so we can see where battleships fall then.


A related note regarding the graph, it saddens me greatly that Titans, supposedly the most powerful ships in existance, are between Industrials and Exhumers.

Lastly, what do the different colors mean on the graph?

my worry is when you do these balance changes they are based on fleet fights and the superiority there rather than look at the ship from a small gang or even solo perspective. It seems you do this with every nerf that happens. You simply cannot just view a ships strength when its in a fleet with 300 more of them. I understand the nerf but you need to think about how it effects others. Eve is just not about nullsec blobs.
Even if you nerf this, then another doctrine comes along in its place. Just like we had drakes, navpocs, slowcats, tengus, alpha maels etc. because you never look at the game overall and the effects changes make, you seem to look far too inward.

I mean you reduce hit points but it only will have an impact small groups, when you are in a fleet of 300 ishtars it makes NO DIFFERENCE!
300 ishtars hitting one ship (you know f1) is still going to bloody alpha it... how can you not get that.
15% bouncer range isn't a massive issue either, its not far enough, if you want to make an impact then make it 50% reduction.

Again with tengu changes, in large fleets it makes no difference, those extra less HP doesn't matter because you are getting alpha'd be another 300 ships! all you are doing is nerfing small gangs, which isn't the purpose is it.

You need to change your thinking not only for small gang but what are going to be the really game changes in large fleets.

do you not get it?