Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Perhaps the real fixing of Ishtars needs to be something more drastic, like changing their role entirely.

The previous fix was something you could feel in both PvE and PvP, but obviously not enough to balance out the many advantages of sentries with enough drawbacks to make them not quite as powerful.


The main issue lies probably not with the damage Ishtars are able to deal, but with their ability to apply too much of said damage at far too long ranges with far too much precision, while being almost entirely able to decide damage type, being largely EWAR immune and having the unique ability among T2/T3s to project damage from a position without actually having to be at said position.

Short of a remote ECM Burst-like EWAR type to have a chance based ability to randomly disconnect drones (and keep them disconnected for a while), not much will change that.


So how about cutting the most problematic bonus completely out of the Ishtar, the sentry range and tracking bonus?

Ishtars can be still plenty powerful via using heavy drones, though in this case the damage is generally harder to apply, delayed and easier to kill off than in the case of sentries. They would still have a lot of DPS for a HAC out to a good range, but this type of damage application is much more limited and has a good amount of drawbacks, while being more faithful to the "Drones everywhere" instead of "Drones turned turrets everywhere" way the Ishtar should be.

It might also make heavy drones much more viable to fly with in general, just like how the Gila increased the usefulness of Medium Drones massively.


Ishtars are usually used as kiting ships, but are actually the slowest among the HACs, so maybe give them a speed bonus to compensate for the lost drone bonus? Active repping would be also a possibility, but seeing as there is already the Deimos, this may not be such a good idea. A turret bonus probably wouldn't make much sense either, though it is a possibility.

Plus the only things I've seen survive 30+ ishtars volleying at them long enough to hold reps are the poster children of well balanced ships - linked T3s. Other ships, reps can catch, but there is bleed through the hardened tier.

You're looking at a 60k volley from those numbers.

As has been said by a few others:

I feel without any kind of EWAR to attack a drone ship with we will always have the Sentry Drone problem.


We need an EWAR type that can reduce a ships drone control range or jam their connection to the drones. This sounds like it could even be the secondary EWAR for Caldari. It would fit in.

If not this kind of option then.....


Drop the sentry drone bonus from the Ishtar and the VNI and concentrate on making heavy drones very useful to them.

Make the heavy drones super fast and track very well by dropping the sentry drone tracking and optimal bonus for a secondary drone velocity and tracking bonus.

I can run 99% of ded plexes with ishtars in easy mode. If you give me tengu I will rather take ishtar because its faster and easier. Now tell me how are they not broken.

I fail to see what 36km Scorch would break that 30km Scorch already doesn't break.

Double range bonuses aren't insanely OP. The Eagle and Vulture certainly aren't "insanely OP," there's no reason to think a Zealot with two range bonuses would be. The Tengu is overpowered, but it's not because of the range subsystem.

In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from.

The ability for Ishtars to drop sentries and the get out at the slightest hint of a fleet coming for them has given the Ishtar doctrine it's popularity. Many players complain about Ishtars for this reason and is a valid reason why Ishtars shouldn't have bonus's for sentries, or should not even be allowed to use sentries. Ishtars can do quiet a bit of damage, but the risk really isn't there for the pilots using them because they can just leave the field so easily.

+ battleship like damage // ever seen a BS with such low dmg?
+ battleship ranges // depends on the sentries used. Lower dmg with the BS- range ones
+ application bonus // as most ships for their weapon system
+ weapons can be ewar immune // they arent
+ ammo less // not enough cargo bay on your favorite ship?
+ selectable damage // same as missiles
+ Fairly fast / / slowest base speed of all HAC
+ t2 resists // its a HAC
+ Plenty of fitting space //badest one of all HAC. Enough though
+ extended drone range // its their primary weapon
+ weapon doesn't account for owners movement // sometimes good sometimes bad
+ damage protection can be instant // as with all systems except missiles
+ plenty of drone bay //All Hac got plenty of cargo bay for ammo
+ large base shield ehp // its in the lower half of all HAC
+ high shield recharge rate // a normal one
+ drone hitpoints // they REALLY need it! Except sentries

- drones can be killed
- drones can be abandoned

What's the actual bottom line to this though?

If my math is correct I see a simple shield kite fit Ishtar (with Bouncer II's) go from 620 dps @ approx 100km (drone control range) drop to 515 dps at the same range.

I still feel this is simply too much.

No other HAC can perform like this. It's battleship offensive performance with cruiser application and HAC mobility (warp speed, MWD sig reduction and speed).

Battleships still struggle on grid to go toe to toe with this and they have all of their other drawbacks on top.

Ok, the pirate BS that costs more than four Ishtars works. Do you have any realistic suggestions?