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Becomming Suspect on entering FW Complex

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Ben Ishikela
#81 - 2015-03-02 05:06:15 UTC
+1 for suspect flag on activating ANY acceleration gate.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#82 - 2015-03-07 13:39:05 UTC
I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.

We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia...
Iain Cariaba
#83 - 2015-03-07 16:16:13 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.

We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia...

The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#84 - 2015-03-07 16:42:48 UTC
I've not read this thread.

It has been proposed before (once by me). At the end of the discussion I agreed suspect flagging is not reasonable.

What is reasonable is no pilot receives a suspect flag or a sec status penalty when aggressing first inside a plex.

They should just be considered no mans land and therefore "enter at your own risk". Then militia pilots are not penalised for defending themselves whilst doing there job.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Bright Noa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-03-07 18:19:05 UTC
I don't know if we're going to be able to agree if you think stuff which makes no sense from any perspective outside of making it much easier to avoid penalties, and strongly destroys realism and immersion in to the environment, is the preferable choice.

Your actions have consequences. You're playing an aspect of the game meant to allow people to participate in the lore wars. There's other ways to go play war if you don't like how war works and don't want to play realistically then go somewhere else. Join an alliance and fight their wars for them by their rules. EVE's a sandbox, they keep saying. You're trying to force conformity here on a very specific part of EVE, because how this stuff actually works doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to others who might like this system and find it makes sense.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-03-07 18:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
conscientious objectors to factional warfare and opportunist violent protesters have sandbox rights too you know.

edit: you are content

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#87 - 2015-03-08 20:28:17 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:
I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.

We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia...
The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are.
Yeah, but try being some random civilian and entering and just hanging around inside an active military base... which is kinda what these plexes are right?

Maybe they give you a countdown to leave and if you are still present then you have been warned and now will be fired upon.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-03-08 20:32:05 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Dangeresque Too wrote:
I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.

We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia...
The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are.
Yeah, but try being some random civilian and entering and just hanging around inside an active military base... which is kinda what these plexes are right?

Maybe they give you a countdown to leave and if you are still present then you have been warned and now will be fired upon.

They can do this now, in local. Just have someone willing to take one for the team by following through with the threat, chip in and buy her/him their sec back.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#89 - 2015-03-08 23:43:35 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
They can do this now, in local. Just have someone willing to take one for the team by following through with the threat, chip in and buy her/him their sec back.
I'm confused... why would you have to buy someone's sec status back up in order for FW NPC's to give a warning to any 'civilians' that entered their restricted site? Its a military facility where civilians have no purpose to be there. I understand that the navy is honorable and can't just go blasting away at civilians, but it is a military site so have the NPCs give them a warning that they should leave and if they don't then the NPCs start re-securing their military installation.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2015-03-09 00:08:04 UTC
Oh sorry, wasn't clear. Was sayin players should blow up civilians and take the sec hit.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Iain Cariaba
#91 - 2015-03-09 07:23:31 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
Oh sorry, wasn't clear. Was sayin players should blow up civilians and take the sec hit.

This, it's not like it's even a big sec hit. It's taken me quite a few days of shooting you facwar people to drop my sec status the 1.6 it's dropped since I started.

Besides, most of you facwar people are like this guy. So no real danger of you losing any sec status there.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#92 - 2015-03-09 15:07:08 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Flash Thomson wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.



Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum...


if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity.


That is a statement of conformity, that somehow you have come to accept that taking part in your militia should logically, eventually, bar you from entering the same space you fight to protect.



no, i was barred from entering the federation i hold dear is because i killed alot of innocent (read neutral) pilots entering my plex, that is logical.

what illogical is, preventing neutrals to enter a plex and make them a suspect.

just like irl, anybody (reporters, volunteers, etc) can go to a war zone. does this mean a soldier can just shoot at them without any repurcussions? if you don't want to take a sec hit then allow them to shoot at you 1st, make them a "true" suspect 1st before you engage them.

In a warzone is different from entering a battlefield or military base. For those areas there are checkpoints. For most militaries apparently it does not matter what your status is if you decide to blow through a checkpoint. Consider the acceleration gate a checkpoint. If you blow through it your pirate, saboteur, press, or civilian ship will be perceived as a threat. You should expect to be treated as such. Whether that involves the warping away of the militia guy inside or his deciding to shoot you first and ask questions later it should not result in a sec hit to the militia guy.

Similarly a suspect tag and timer is warranted in this game for this activity. It is not an unwarranted special treatment. The area is marked as a battlefield between two militias. There is a gate presented which one must decide to pass through. When you decide to enter it you are deciding to involve yourself in that battle one way or another.

I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#93 - 2015-03-09 16:16:19 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex.
You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#94 - 2015-03-09 18:19:39 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex.
You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them?


Since the introduction of tags for sec status your definition of what constitutes a pirate is out dated and void.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#95 - 2015-03-09 20:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Flash Thomson wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.



Not sure, if I haven't been clear! This is exactly what I don't want! I don't want to have to farm to get my security rating up again! I want to be able to shoot any enemy in a plex regardless of Faction Warfare enemy or filthy Pirate scum...


if you are concerned with your security status then FW is not for you! use alts for any hisec activity.


That is a statement of conformity, that somehow you have come to accept that taking part in your militia should logically, eventually, bar you from entering the same space you fight to protect.



no, i was barred from entering the federation i hold dear is because i killed alot of innocent (read neutral) pilots entering my plex, that is logical.

what illogical is, preventing neutrals to enter a plex and make them a suspect.

just like irl, anybody (reporters, volunteers, etc) can go to a war zone. does this mean a soldier can just shoot at them without any repurcussions? if you don't want to take a sec hit then allow them to shoot at you 1st, make them a "true" suspect 1st before you engage them.

This argument seems like it is the pirates that want things to be easy. There are no neutrals entering FW plexes unless they are noob and don't know what it is. In that case just add a warning to the entry gate with a confirmation box that you agree to be flagged by enttering.

TO amend your analogy: A neutral "reporter" in body armor carrying an M-16 charges at a checkpoint. Why oh why would anyone shoot them? No if an armed gunman, no military uniform on, charges a military complex they are most likely going to be shot and the soldiers on duty are not going to be in trouble they are going to be praised for doing their job.

I have to agree with the OP on this. Many pirates will disagree because they have been able to exploit this to their favor. I.E the FW militia person waits for the pirate to initiate or they suffer the sec penalty and the pirate does not. Either way the pirate has the advantage.

And joining FW does not mean one has to be a pirate, so why force them with a bad mechanic? Plex gates could warn non-FW of being flagged, if pirates want to pirate they still can, this does not stop them from doing what they intended to do anyway.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#96 - 2015-03-09 22:05:03 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:

This argument seems like it is the pirates that want things to be easy. There are no neutrals entering FW plexes unless they are noob and don't know what it is. In that case just add a warning to the entry gate with a confirmation box that you agree to be flagged by enttering.

TO amend your analogy: A neutral "reporter" in body armor carrying an M-16 charges at a checkpoint. Why oh why would anyone shoot them? No if an armed gunman, no military uniform on, charges a military complex they are most likely going to be shot and the soldiers on duty are not going to be in trouble they are going to be praised for doing their job.

I have to agree with the OP on this. Many pirates will disagree because they have been able to exploit this to their favor. I.E the FW militia person waits for the pirate to initiate or they suffer the sec penalty and the pirate does not. Either way the pirate has the advantage.

And joining FW does not mean one has to be a pirate, so why force them with a bad mechanic? Plex gates could warn non-FW of being flagged, if pirates want to pirate they still can, this does not stop them from doing what they intended to do anyway.


Gameplay & mechanics > everything else

The design needs to serve the mantra "what promotes more Player interaction (PVP)".

Some "neutral" low-sec players claim the suspect flag disadvantages them (and I agree). They should not have to carry a suspect flag after entering a plex that is suddenly empty (cost for no return).

By the same mantra opportunities for PVP are lost because the Militia pilot is obligated to take a sec hit or suspect flag. Either coz the Militia pilot will choose to flee (not soo likely with a combat pilot) or he/she won't be in a plex later as he fixes the sec status.

Arguing that they should use an alt is weak. Plenty of people are on one sub. Particularly casual players. Particularly parents. This game is 11 yrs old. Plenty of time for sproggs to appear.

Consider all play styles when throwing up "solutions".

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#97 - 2015-03-09 22:36:27 UTC
You squids are so pathetically risk averse it is truly sad. get over it. Time to move back to low sec, problem solved.
Arla Sarain
#98 - 2015-03-09 23:07:30 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I've not read this thread.

It has been proposed before (once by me). At the end of the discussion I agreed suspect flagging is not reasonable.

What is reasonable is no pilot receives a suspect flag or a sec status penalty when aggressing first inside a plex.

They should just be considered no mans land and therefore "enter at your own risk". Then militia pilots are not penalised for defending themselves whilst doing there job.

This is simpler and more elegant.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#99 - 2015-03-10 14:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
I don't see why any pirate, pirates that pride themselves on -10 or whatever, should really care what happens to the other guys sec status. The only reason pirates care is because they know their entry grants an advantage. It makes the militia guy inside the plex have to decide not only whether he wants the particular fight, but also whether he will get a sec hit and wants the security hit. Unlike the majority of pirates, the majority of fw players do not look forward to achieving a -10 sec status. That extra split second advantage can translate into a tactical range or drone deployment or ewar lock or whatever for the entering pirate. This is the only reason why pies in the fw warzones oppose removal of the sec status hit to a militia member in a fw plex.
You do realise that shooting a guy with -5 and below, does not give you a sec hit right? So what advantage does entry grant them?


Since the introduction of tags for sec status your definition of what constitutes a pirate is out dated and void.
Oh please, what relevance does that have? Bearing in mind I was directly addressing his remark regarding those of -10.

If you're going to try and state anything as fact in regards to sec status and tags, then at least come with evidence. It's a fact those of -5 and below are shootable without penalty, so what facts do you bring?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#100 - 2015-03-10 16:57:55 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:


This is a discussion about FW objectives, not low sec. Incidentally, this takes place in lowsec. Low sec is not entirely comprised of FW systems and FW does not always take place in low sec, with hostilities in null and high sec as well. As a neutral, you are entering, by choice, into militia compound. Being a neutral, you think you should keep some kind of anonymity while entering or wandering around military infrastructure? Now you are just being silly. You guys really want to make RL examples that are inconsistent to RL procedures within a CZ.

Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.



oreb, you were part of AIDER before (and my senior) so i have high regards for you. the thing is, most of the time we try to compare things to rl is because it's the logical explanation.

with this suggestion, neutral venturing to plexes will be lessen, which means lesser targets for me. now, i joined FW to pewpew and NOT to do "things" in high sec.

so imho, more targets > high sec status. i would gladly sacrifice my sec. status for more targets.

now, my issue is gate/station gun aggro in aggressing neutrals, that is what needs to be changed.


NP, man. You owe me no respect. Your CEO is not my biggest fan and I had a disagreement with how leadership distributed a liberal gift of mine and claiming credit for it. Arguments about Teamspeak that seemed to be resolved now. Dumb stuff. Sorry to see Ash has left you guys.

It would be much simpler to cause a flag than to change gate gun mechanics.
It would be much simpler to cause a flag than to rework how aggression is triggered.
It woulc be much simpler to cause a flag than to adjust sec hits by system security level.
It would be much simpler to cause a flag than to risk any of the above changes that could unbalance gate fighting/camping, or just simply causing more lag or work for the servers on a tree aggression system.
And a flag changes nothing you wouldn't already get if you were prepared to fight a neutral anyway, and gives the person inside the benefit of being able to shoot first before range control plays a factor.

Not everyone has alts. Asking a new player that just joined to freeze his training for a few weeks for a hauler alt to haul to border systems is not reasonable. We all fight all over the place, but fights within a plex should be fair game. The objective has a specific purpose, making excuses by innocent and/or curious players is not an acceptable agrument for someone being in lowsec to begin with.