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Crime & Punishment

 
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Suspect timers for stealing loot
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Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2015-03-05 18:27:27 UTC
Zealous Miner wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If you want to space lawyer this, I'm not sure that a citizen who attempts to stop a crime in progress is considered a vigilante.

Anything that causes a suspect timer is not a crime. It just means CONCORD isn't coming to avenge you if you mess with someone.

Anything that causes a criminal timer, surprise, surprise, is a crime.

To put it simply: New Eden's laws don't care about can flipping or loot stealing. CONCORD doesn't care about can flipping or loot stealing. They allow us capsuleers to settle those petty matters amongst ourselves. You were outwitted and weren't able to adequately deal with said situation in a lawful manner so, as I said: Be prepared to fight dirty and go against the laws in pursuit of your own agenda. You seeing the law as being inadequate or too lenient and the police force responsible in upholding it ineffective, well, brings me to my next point...

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And the term loses all meaning anyway when law enforcement utterly fails in it's responsibilities.

The terminology: You've literally described a portion of the definition of the word "Vigilante." So, I would say its meaning is still quite accurate.

/spacelawyer


The fact that gankers are able to hide behind current game mechanics does not mean their hauler alts are not involved in the crime. You're arguing semantics when the true state of affairs is obvious.

The term "vigilante" has no meaning in circumstances where law enforcement is demonstrably impotent, in this case because criminals are able to consistently profit from their actions. This is not my opinion, it is a fact which is demonstrated almost daily. CONCORD has no deterrent effect in an environment where one can use alts to eliminate the consequences.

What you have here is a system of arbitrary rules which allows a player or group of players to exchange resources (in the form of ganking ships) for things of much greater tangible and intangible value (victims' reactions, stat padding and potentially huge loot payouts based on RNG), while using those same rules to lock in their risk at a predictable and low level. And this farming operation cannot be countered effectively without mirroring these players' tactics, a state of affairs which is antithetical to the notion of a "sandbox" game.
Zealous Miner
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-03-05 18:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Zealous Miner
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


The fact that gankers are able to hide behind current game mechanics does not mean their hauler alts are not involved in the crime. You're arguing semantics when the true state of affairs is obvious.

The term "vigilante" has no meaning in circumstances where law enforcement is demonstrably impotent, in this case because criminals are able to consistently profit from their actions. This is not my opinion, it is a fact which is demonstrated almost daily. CONCORD has no deterrent effect in an environment where one can use alts to eliminate the consequences.

Again that is indeed an opinion.

I argue semantics simply because your definition of a criminal act and EVE's and CONCORD's definition of a criminal act are different. Attacking someone is a criminal act. Stealing from them and then laundering the assets is not. It's more akin to a civil dispute. Granted, you may not see eye-to-eye with this, thus vigilantism comes about.

CONCORD acts as a deterrent in that a ganker is guaranteed to always lose their ship. The reason ganking is so profitable is not because law enforcement is so inefficient or incompetent, but because those who are attacked make it so profitable to be attacked in the first place. Freighters without tank filled to the brim with commodities and materials, autopiloting and flying without escort. Many factors, all of which resulted from the victim's own decisions, allow gankers to strike and come out with a pretty penny.

Fedo. Fedo? Fedo!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#63 - 2015-03-05 23:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
The term "vigilante" has no meaning in circumstances where law enforcement is demonstrably impotent, in this case because criminals are able to consistently profit from their actions.
How are Concord demonstrably impotent? They have a 100% success rate in respect of their role as defined by CCP, I'd love to see a real life law enforcement agency that can boast of a 100% success rate in their remit.

Quote:
This is not my opinion, it is a fact which is demonstrated almost daily. CONCORD has no deterrent effect in an environment where one can use alts to eliminate the consequences.
Nope that's an opinion, if Concord has no deterrent effect in the environment you describe then how do you explain the people that don't suicide gank because they're deterred by the penalties that Concord dish out, the loss of sec status etc?

Quote:
What you have here is a system of arbitrary rules which allows a player or group of players to exchange resources (in the form of ganking ships) for things of much greater tangible and intangible value (victims' reactions, stat padding and potentially huge loot payouts based on RNG), while using those same rules to lock in their risk at a predictable and low level.
Rules and mechanics that apply to everybody.

Red Frog, for example, use the exact same rules as gankers to lock their risk at a predictable and low level, I'm sure that many other non combatant type players do too. That people choose not to use the rules to their advantage for whatever reason, is neither here nor there.


Quote:
And this farming operation cannot be countered effectively without mirroring these players' tactics, a state of affairs which is antithetical to the notion of a "sandbox" game.
Utter tripe.

It's pretty simple to counter gankers. Gankers even tell people how to counter them, but for many it's too much effort to tank their ships, not overload or to actually be at the keyboard.

Not being lazy, complacent or daft is a good start.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Caim Naberius
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-03-06 13:32:03 UTC
The stolen items could be tagged as 'hot items' and be made non-transferrable to other ships/hangars to prevent abuse as Bronson stated. Perhaps a warning sign when someone wants to drop something that's stolen in your Orca, or any other ship( 'Warning, (insert-name) wants to put stolen items in your hangar etc. etc. )

A docking timer for when you've stolen stuff would be another good mechanic change.
Now it's too easy to loot wrecks that are in the 0meter range of a station and immediatly dock up.
It has made me tons of isks but thinking about it, it is pretty weird and unrealistic...though very profitable.

Screw the suspect-timer, i'm saying bring in the 'thief timer'..makes you grey or something for 30sec, can't transfer the loot to another ship without that ship getting flagged as well, can't dock up and items will be 'laundered' once docked up. Awesome, i deserve a medal.

Having all that said, yes, it's up to the people/capsuleers to try and prevent/help the poor souls that are victims of these evil ganksters(actually it's up to the poor souls themselves, they AFK, AP and be silly). Suicide that freighter wreck before that noobship can transfer it, that don't work? Bump that freighter that's got the stuff and/or get some buddies together and gank that scoundrel! Eye for an eye, fight fire with fire, space bushido, chickennuggets, etc. etc. there are many more ways of countering and even preventing the ganks. It will take effort, intelligence and persistence, something alot of people lack.
Long story short ; HTFU and learn from your errors, don't blame somebody else.


Regards,

Caim
Chenguang Hucel-Ge
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-03-07 13:12:31 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
All kidding aside, having a suspect flag transfer from a ship scooping the loot to a ship with a fleet hangar storing it is a monumentally horrible idea from the standpoint of the miner/hauler/anti-ganking community.

Why?

Well, imagine that you're someone who enjoys a good AWOX and has infiltrated a mining corp. The corp has friendly fire off, so they feel pretty safe in space with the new guy. Assuming that the OP's proposal were implemented, the easiest Orca AWOXes in the world could be achieved by:

1. Get into a mining fleet with an Orca that is allowing you access to their fleet hangar.
2. Have an out-of-corp alt warp to you and drop something next to you.
3. Scoop this loot, suspect flagging yourself, and deposit the loot into the Orca's fleet hangar, suspect flagging the Orca.
4. The alt kills the Orca dead while you warp to safety.


All because the Orca got suspect flagged for something you did, not them.


Suspect flags should not be earned for actions that you did not commit. The potential for abuse is far too great. And I say this as someone who generally runs with their sec status negative.


While it's possible, nothing prevents adding extra requirement of yellow safety on Orca for accepting stolen loot.
The question is not technical difficulties, the question is degree of redundancy.
Considering existence of such thing as log out timers for guys without PvP/non PvP agression timers? Definitely NOT redundant.