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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Sojourn

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#221 - 2016-01-20 21:28:00 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
To a united, peaceful, human civilization.


Oh look! You guys have the same tailor!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#222 - 2016-01-20 21:55:18 UTC
But not cut from the same cloth.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#223 - 2016-01-20 23:48:28 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
To a united, peaceful, human civilization.


The coming Blood Age will be united, peaceful, and human.

It will be united because all humanity will under the imperial sway of the Amarr-Blood Raider Empire-Covenant.

It will be peaceful because all resistance to the Amarr-Blood Raider Empire-Covenant will be crushed and all subject peoples given Vitoc, the glaive collar, 24/7 propaganda and brainwashing, and TCMCs. No resistance will ever rise again.

It will be human because the filithy, subhuman Minmatar people will be exterminated and everyone else will either become human like the Chosen or be exterminated themselves.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#224 - 2016-01-21 02:19:47 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
To a united, peaceful, human civilization.


The coming Blood Age will be united, peaceful, and human.

It will be united because all humanity will under the imperial sway of the Amarr-Blood Raider Empire-Covenant.

It will be peaceful because all resistance to the Amarr-Blood Raider Empire-Covenant will be crushed and all subject peoples given Vitoc, the glaive collar, 24/7 propaganda and brainwashing, and TCMCs. No resistance will ever rise again.

It will be human because the filithy, subhuman Minmatar people will be exterminated and everyone else will either become human like the Chosen or be exterminated themselves.

What if some of the minmatar are part of the blood raider covenant, will they become chosen or just exterminated?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#225 - 2016-01-21 14:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Nauplius wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
To a united, peaceful, human civilization.


The coming Blood Age will be united, peaceful, and human.

It will be united because all humanity will under the imperial sway of the Amarr-Blood Raider Empire-Covenant.

It will be peaceful because all resistance to the Amarr-Blood Raider Empire-Covenant will be crushed and all subject peoples given Vitoc, the glaive collar, 24/7 propaganda and brainwashing, and TCMCs. No resistance will ever rise again.

It will be human because the filithy, subhuman Minmatar people will be exterminated and everyone else will either become human like the Chosen or be exterminated themselves.

What if some of the minmatar are part of the blood raider covenant, will they become chosen or just exterminated?

If I remember, he actually came up with a recipe for how to de-Minmatarize yourself. It's basically a loyalty test writ in sweeping gestures.

It involves a lot of Matari blood. A lot of death, too.

It's pretty predictable, and sad for the usual reasons.




(I would be curious to find out if there's any way for "people in pleasure hubs" to cleanse their pleasure-hubbishness. It's probably similar, but the reasoning behind the details might be interesting.)
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#226 - 2016-01-21 17:31:30 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
But not cut from the same cloth.


Ooooooooooh! Oh! Ooooh! Wow!

Okay, that was fairly impressive Aldrith.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#227 - 2016-01-22 16:22:17 UTC
Entry Thirty-one: Tool Use

Zoom in close on people's lives, and you'll see just that: people. Zoom out a ways, though, and you start to see things in terms of social utility: teachers and "stay-at-home" parents to supply a highly-functional citizenry; doctors and, in a completely different way, stay-at-home spouses, and, in another completely different way, entertainment services to keep your population functioning at a high level; tradesfolk to support your infrastructure; soldiers to ward off threats to your control, or to increase its breadth; police, lawyers and lawmakers to arrange and maintain order.

Just about every career path one can take has its rules, its structures and strictures, designed to make it a reliable tool.

At a glance, we don't. We're exceptions to so many rules....

It's pretty disturbing.

The obvious, logical thing for each and every empire to do with the hydrostatic pod is just to treat it as just another weapon in the arsenal, and an infomorph capsuleer as just another specialized military role. To an extent, they do actually do this, but then there's us.

A capsuleer, by default, is an independent, nearly-indestructible mercenary armed with a ridiculously potent weapon. It's an absurd thing for any normal society to willingly allow to happen. Yet someone did that on purpose. The pod didn't just slip into our hands. It was placed there. We're subject to a regulatory system, however limited. We're part of some system, somehow, like doctors, lawyers, tradesfolk.

But what are we for? The obvious answer is wetwork of the kind we do all the time, but we could have done that as part of national militaries. We've gone far beyond that kind of utility.

It's possible that we're actually not doing our job. Every job is subject to corruption of some sort, whether it's the bribe-taking official or the parent who gets drunk and beats the children. But there's usually some point at which authorities step in, and I think we're long past it, so the most likely answer is that we are doing our job, according to ... someone.

Whoever's purpose we serve.

Well ... you can usually infer a tool's purpose from its shape. So....

We're a warrior class. That much is clear. If we don't fight conventional forces, or Nation forces, or Drifters, we fight each other. If we don't fight, we build weapons, or trade in weapons, or design and improve on weapons. It's hard enough to find exceptions that they seem mostly to prove the rule.

Another rule the exceptions prove: we're not servants of any one nation. We move freely among them, potentially serving any, all, or none. We choose our own allegiances, and not for life, but at whim, like we're picking out what colors to wear for the day. (Okay, not quite that far, but it's pretty close.) We trade and fight, often (usually?) without much regard for national borders.

We're useful for (and used for) all sorts of things, but actually I think our "use" is probably something we serve just by being what we are. By ignoring those borders, we make them permeable. By our travels and shifting allegiances, hard lines on maps between politically deadlocked powers start to fade.

If we assume that this effect is intentional, a lot of our purpose takes form: taken collectively, we're a dissolving agent, breaking solid structures down so that new, larger ones can take their place. We're not gentle-- our influence seems to be most easily measured in megadeaths-- but maybe we're gentler (and more reliable) than more traditional methods, like the heat of massive, civilization-threatening wars.

If we serve any one master, it's one entangled in the meta-society of New Eden's nations. And it has to be strong enough to dictate terms (probably with a lot of diplomatic tact) to the empires that train us, maintain our infrastructure, and build our pods.

That last observation suggests whose design we probably follow. The hydrostatic pod wasn't something the Caldari scientists at Ishukone just came up with. It was a gift.

There's also just one national border we can't cross.

The Jove created the pod, probably a long time ago. They'd know its applications and its effects. They'd be able to predict what sort of role we'd play. There's no one else who would be as well-placed to anticipate that we'd become exactly what we have.

People say the Jove are dead. Maybe that's true; I don't know. But I think it's their tune we dance, even if they're not playing it for us anymore.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#228 - 2016-01-22 16:44:50 UTC
The Jove could not set the terms by which capsuleers are treated in New Eden, though. That was up to the nations in CONCORD to come to an agreement on. While I'm sure the Jove had their designs on New Eden, I suspect - but obviously can't prove or know - our unprecedented lack of regulation has a simpler explanation.

You can never properly tame a predator. You can toss them treats and you might even be able to get their aid in a hunt. Put a leash on them, and they'll turn on you and hate you. For the very most part, these predators are quite a bit too dangerous to make that attempt worthwhile.

So New Eden discovered that it could produce a new kind of predator. Something far more powerful and dangerous than what they'd dealt with before, potentially very useful but almost certainly not worth making an enemy of. So they did the only thing they could do, that wouldn't neuter this potentially useful predator. They tossed them treats and spoke softly, once in a while maybe even reaching out to gently stroke the magnificently muscled side of it, marveling at the beauty and power of this new creation while enjoying the thrill of being within inches of potential death.

The alternative would be too costly, too dangerous and have too few benefits to be worth it.

A practical demonstration would probably be unwise, as our claws and teeth tend to strike down more than the one hapless creature convinced that they can leash apex predators.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#229 - 2016-01-22 16:48:50 UTC
The beast should have been kept in a cage.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#230 - 2016-01-22 17:09:28 UTC
Perhaps. Perhaps not. I doubt it'd make much difference, in the end. Change is the natural course of things and efforts towards and against it would be the same, merely with less raw muscle behind it. Improvement of New Eden can only come through change, so it might as well come a little faster.

The only difference in the end will be that the suffering and death toll required gets compressed to a smaller time period before we see measurable changes and adjust to that.

The great nations of New Eden would still throw their fleets at each other and pretend they're not at war. The dirtsiders would be preaching their faiths or against someone else's, inciting violence and hate. The downtrodden would be occasionally rising to get slaughtered and subdued once more under cruel tyrants and the benevolent and hapless would be torn down by ignorant masses who does not understand the consequences and so on and so forth for as long as human history endures.

Besides, kin of mine... would you have preferred to see the Empire so defenseless against the other apex predators you guys poked with a stick in some idiot attempt at gaining more power? Nice to have your own little psychopaths in eggs when the Drifters come to visit, isn't it?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#231 - 2016-01-22 17:14:33 UTC
I'd prefer to see the Empire not resort to godless and abominable technology to defend itself.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#232 - 2016-01-22 17:26:26 UTC
Where's the cut-off point for when technology becomes godless and abominable? Banging rocks together to make fire? Sharpened sticks? Neural implants for cognitive performance boost in a fleet commander? Immense body modification and implantation to extend life to a few centuries?

What technology would save the Empire from the Drifters, while not being "godless and abominable"?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#233 - 2016-01-22 17:30:50 UTC
Capsuleers without cloning and only permitted chained into the direct service of the Imperial Navy would be a start.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#234 - 2016-01-22 17:39:02 UTC
Neutered and resentful, more dangerous to the Empire than its enemies in the long run. Besides, where would you get the capsule tech from, I wonder? Unless you think you could have convinced the other three to try leashing something this dangerous and earn their ire rather than cooperation.

Trust me, little kin. You are looking at proof that leashing humans don't work, in the end. All it does is create monsters more dangerous to yourself than your enemies.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#235 - 2016-01-22 19:23:59 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Entry Thirty-one: Tool Use

...

It's possible that we're actually not doing our job. Every job is subject to corruption of some sort, whether it's the bribe-taking official or the parent who gets drunk and beats the children. But there's usually some point at which authorities step in, and I think we're long past it, so the most likely answer is that we are doing our job, according to ... someone.

Yet, Ms. Jenneth, I believe I do my job.

Killing enemies of the State is duty of every Caldari citizen. Unfortunately, as capsule interface was leaked outside of the State now we have to deal with enemies inside these capsules as well. And since I possess the same technology, it is them, capsuleers who are acting or speaking against the State, they must be my priority targets.

You should do your job as well. As Tibus Heth said, "Everyone must do their part."

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#236 - 2016-01-22 19:42:19 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

I think it's an error state for civilization, though. The first purpose of being "civilized," after all, is to keep our cruelty in check-- to bind us together into larger circles, delegitimize violence towards people who just happen to look or talk a little differently.

To persuade us not to be too much the animals we are.

Unfortunately, I can't agree with this.

This is simple because to be cruel is hard.

There is a very strong emotional force, known as compassion. You aren't taught it, you don't learn it or get from experience. It is simple as human brain works - when you see other people suffer you... you just feel part of their pain. You don't think about it, you don't want to help them, but you just project them on yourself. It happens disregarding your thoughts and wishes, it is a simple neurobiological reaction, programmed by nature or the Maker into our minds.

I can say it from the first hand experience. It may be easy to pull the trigger when you fight in ships... simply because they have irregular form. It is fun to see they explode and tear apart into tiny pieces. But if you will need to do the same with a human being, your brain will start acting weird. And I know it because before blowing up ships I was blowing up humans. And to do this you need to be mentally strong, you need to be able to overpower this protective reaction. To be cruel you have to be strong.

Or not to be human at all.

We all know which exact torture methods do Gallenteans, and it is an obvious evidence that they aren't actually humans. As for Mr. Nauplius case - I am not sure. After all, biologically, he is Khanid. Not a gallentean. Thus, he is a human.

I believe that the easiest explanation to his cruelty might lie in his religion. It is well known that a strong belief can overpower people's biological instinct. Several sects could even make humans to torture even themselves or commit suicides. This is the power of the belief. Though his religion is very weak, as he is the only follower, his faith and beliefs could be incredibly strong.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#237 - 2016-01-23 01:56:38 UTC
Miz, it's pretty rare that major powers just fold their cards and say, "Nope. This one's too dangerous for us to try to control by any of the ridiculously large number of means at our disposal even though this technology is so complicated and delicate that we could trivially slip in traps and fail-safes every-which-way."

In the past, the Jove have showered us with gifts: the Apotheosis, the Gnosis. Tokens, maybe, but significant tokens, with no demands or favors asked in return. Their technology is what created us, and they've been giving us presents as though we were favored children.

The Jove had the information, the position, and the leverage. I don't for a moment think they didn't know what their toy would do. After all, they had it first. And they gave it to us, before we really knew what to do with it. They helped form CONCORD, helped form the regime that would govern us-- helped establish the rules that would ...

... pretty much fail to control us.

Here we are.

I don't think we brought ourselves here.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#238 - 2016-01-23 02:12:00 UTC
Oh I'll certainly admit it's a possibility, but I find it rather unlikely. I've no doubt there's fail-safes and means to neuter our power in at the very least the four nations' own space. CONCORD has shown the ability to control our sensor data filtering and more, and even restrict the use of many of our systems, so we're certainly not entirely out of their control.

What they are unable to do is overtly leash us. How many would whimper and obey their masters and how many would grow teeth and go for the leash holder? It's hard to say of course, but I know there is not a power in New Eden that would do anything but make an enemy out of me if they tried to force submission. I am quite likely not alone in this.

Of course, you may be right, but I'm a bit leery of spinning yarn out of supposition and maybes. We have very real organizations and nations trying to do very real things to very real people in New Eden, through very real means and for very real motivations. That's where I'll be keeping my focus, because potential "alien" conspiracy by an advanced but dying race of humans is sufficiently far-fetched that it should be considered a distraction.

Food for idle thought, certainly, but I'm not buying it while there's very real villains in need of attention.

Of course, idle thought and speculation is important on its own, so by all means expand on your thoughts here. It is interesting reading and by far better writing than most of the nonsense on these boards.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#239 - 2016-01-23 03:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Miz? Respectfully, I think a conspiracy by agents of a nation state to mess with the affairs of other nation states and their citizens is usually called "foreign policy." The Gallente are really good at it (take for example the Federation-sponsored rebellion that freed so many of your people), but it's the Jove who are famous for their intelligence network.

An intelligence network-- that's another thing that can be called a conspiracy, but I think when someone's actually and actively been studying you from 100-km-long cloaked observatories for your entire history, it's not really a "conspiracy theory" anymore. It's just fact that they've been watching us for a really long time, and it's likely that they've been using that information.

There might be some confirmation bias influencing my thoughts on this somewhere, but I'm not saying someone's brainwashing us through our fluid routers. Yes, I am saying that there are probably failsafes (and, yeah, CONCORD's ability to shut us down in highsec does smack of somebody pushing that button), but my main reason for thinking that is that it would be really stupid not to have them.

A lot of the rules that seem to govern us are implicit, woven not into what we're supposed to do, but what we can do. Like targeting a planet with a doomsday weapon or blasting our way out of a station from the inside-- I think, for us, for now, we just can't do it. There are rules at work there, systems that take priority over capsuleer will. And mostly we don't notice, because this is just how our world works.

You and I look at all this really differently, though. Maybe the whole world.

You talk about villains. You don't say it, but it sounds like you'd think anyone who arranged this would be ... well, a villain.

I don't believe in evil at all. The worst people I've seen, including Nauplius, just seem really damaged, to me. And if someone arranged for us to be where we are, I think that's part of the game of empires and diplomats-- a game of civilizations, and of all civilization as a whole. We're frequently ruthless people, so maybe that makes creating us a ruthless move, but that seems to be something the interplay of civilizations often is.

What's more, the endgame might very well be an attempt to erode national barriers away and let civilization slip past its current deadlocked state, without having to tear everything down. Would that be a bad thing?

And, in terms of what to do about it, if it's true it puts both of us in a strange position. If I want to cooperate, there's no clear way for me to do such a thing. If you want to rebel, there's no clear way to do that, either. We probably do what we're supposed to just by being as we are.

You seem to think I'm telling a scary story, and I guess if you're loyal to something that already exists, maybe it is. I actually think it's a little bit of a comfort, though. Unless we're ready to return to a dark age, people need stable societies to live. Everyone takes advantage of everyone else; that's sort of what a society is.

The situation as it stands is kind of stable. But the empires are deadlocked, and sooner or later something is going to give. We already know what the eventual threat is: total war. Dust and ashes. Empires spent against each other, crumbling into chaos. A new dark age, maybe presided over by the Cartel or the Guristas, if we're lucky. If we're not, the winners could be the Sani or (please shoot me dead if this happens) Sansha's Nation.

The alternative is to use the deadlock to bleed tensions away. That's something we seem not to be terrible at doing.

So I guess ... I don't think someone using us in a way that would help expand civilization if it succeeds is necessarily a bad thing. Even if it's true, it's just ... a thing, a bit of history ...

... a little context for why we exist.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#240 - 2016-01-23 03:49:34 UTC
The reason I am a little impatient when it comes to this is that it's for all intents and purposes merely faith. A belief without supporting evidence. I'll grant you that in all probability the Jove had intents and purposes with what they were doing, but casting them in the role of shepherds of humanity is a bit of a stretch given what we've seen so far in that regard. Pretty much extinction, as far as we know. Their technical advancement certainly aren't sufficient reason to think they have even the slightest grasp on what's best for human civilization and advancement, since we can look at another example and say "Yeah, no, not cool" with the Drifters.

I wholly and fully reject both the need and the notion of human civilization advancing through outside intervention. If we're to grow and advance, we need to do it on our own with freedom as the base value. We have gone from pelting each other with rocks through world-wide civilizations to entire space empires and we did it ourselves. Us. The primates that traded flinging feces for posting it on various fora instead. We've got what it takes to move on and advance all on our own, and any outsiders that come along to mess with that gets an overheated autocannon shoved up their unmentionables for their troubles.

I can't stand dishonesty and puppeteering. Anything that is based upon those will crumble. Honest conflict and agendas are what will push humanity past our current status quo, if we are to have any hope of keeping that advancement standing for more than a cosmic blink of an eye.

Oh, and every time you say respectfully? The most common way that's used, it's intended as "I'll be polite when I say go get ****** by a cactus."