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so what's with the battleships?

First post
Author
Yui Nagisa Sora
Odin's Brotherhood
#1 - 2015-02-24 18:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Yui Nagisa Sora
So them HACs and t3 cruisers, compared to battleships they


  • do more damage

  • faster and more maneuverable


  • tanks more


  • don't have to worry about tracking


why have battleships when you have another class of smaller ship that beats it in every way?
shouldn't it be it tanks more and does more damage but is slower? someone please explain the
game mechanic here to me
Tarko Auduin
Hatfield FX
#2 - 2015-02-24 19:02:50 UTC
Nothing catches bombs like a battleship?
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-02-24 19:09:34 UTC
Most HAC's and T3's will not out-DPS or out Tank properly fit Battleships. No, it doesn't count if you are comparing a Cruiser with an optimal range of 1km vs a BS with ranged guns.. of course those will be off.

But they are for sure far faster (sublight/warp) and benefit from a smaller sig.

But your points aren't lost.. They are WAY too close.
BS's in general I think need a buff, and I think more BS's, T2 BS's, would be nice. That or HAC's need a nerf..
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-02-24 19:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
I'd love to see a new T2 battleship that follows along the lines of a Battlestar from BSG - kinda like a mini-carrier capable of carrying fighters (but not fighter bombers). Like any other ship that's not a carrier, it would be limited to launching no more than five at a time. No logistics bonuses though, and no weapons bonuses other than those applied to fighters (no bonuses drones or sentries), but definitely some good racial tanking bonuses. Beyond that, I haven't really thought of the particulars. Ever since I started playing this game I think the one thing that's annoyed me the most is that ships below capital-class can't carry manned fighters. A Neb-B frigate from Star Wars is 150m long, a little bigger than a Rifter, and even it can carry two squadrons (24 ships total) of X-wings. The 5,000m3 that a fighter uses in this game is somewhat ridiculous tbh, there's no way a ~20m long/wide ship is gonna take up that much space.

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#5 - 2015-02-24 19:40:13 UTC
This thread has been moved to Ships & Modules.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-02-24 19:40:32 UTC
Hacs doing more dps than vindicator a eh?

Tanking more than abbadons

Are we playing the same game?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2015-02-24 19:42:11 UTC
Yui Nagisa Sora wrote:
So them HACs and t3 cruisers, compared to battleships they


  • do more damage

  • faster and more maneuverable


  • tanks more


  • don't have to worry about tracking


why have battleships when you have another class of smaller ship that beats it in every way?
shouldn't it be it tanks more and does more damage but is slower? someone please explain the
game mechanic here to me


The answer is because when T3s were introduced, someone completely and utterly screwed up the stats on engineering and defensive subsystems so that there was one in each category that is clearly better than all others.

Strat Cruisers have been around longer than Dominion sov and they still have never received so much as a tweak, much less a rebalance pass. Both are on the docket to be rebalanced "Soon(tm)".

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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-02-24 19:42:11 UTC
HACs and T3s definitely do not do more raw damage than battlships, however they tank similar amounts due to speed, sig and resists
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#9 - 2015-02-24 19:49:04 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Most HAC's and T3's will not out-DPS or out Tank properly fit Battleships. No, it doesn't count if you are comparing a Cruiser with an optimal range of 1km vs a BS with ranged guns.. of course those will be off.

But they are for sure far faster (sublight/warp) and benefit from a smaller sig.

But your points aren't lost.. They are WAY too close.
BS's in general I think need a buff, and I think more BS's, T2 BS's, would be nice. That or HAC's need a nerf..

HACs should not be nerfed. Their hp (along with recons and logi) is almost too little.

However, Yes, BSs need a little more hp. As long as the devs are careful not to create new monsters. Think of a Rattlesnake with more shield hp.Straight

BSs and BCs need a buff in the sense of better mobility subwarp and warp. The agility and speed nerfs to everything larger than a cruiser was overdone. This is really the biggest annoyance, and probably why they suffer in usage.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Zura Namee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-02-24 20:00:08 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Most HAC's and T3's will not out-DPS or out Tank properly fit Battleships. No, it doesn't count if you are comparing a Cruiser with an optimal range of 1km vs a BS with ranged guns.. of course those will be off.

But they are for sure far faster (sublight/warp) and benefit from a smaller sig.

But your points aren't lost.. They are WAY too close.
BS's in general I think need a buff, and I think more BS's, T2 BS's, would be nice. That or HAC's need a nerf..

HACs should not be nerfed. Their hp (along with recons and logi) is almost too little.

However, Yes, BSs need a little more hp. As long as the devs are careful not to create new monsters. Think of a Rattlesnake with more shield hp.Straight

BSs and BCs need a buff in the sense of better mobility subwarp and warp. The agility and speed nerfs to everything larger than a cruiser was overdone. This is really the biggest annoyance, and probably why they suffer in usage.


It's a combination of being slow and being basically target practice for bombers
Tyanshe
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-02-24 20:00:58 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I'd love to see a new T2 battleship that follows along the lines of a Battlestar from BSG - kinda like a mini-carrier capable of carrying fighters (but not fighter bombers). Like any other ship that's not a carrier, it would be limited to launching no more than five at a time. No logistics bonuses though, and no weapons bonuses other than those applied to fighters (no bonuses drones or sentries), but definitely some good racial tanking bonuses. Beyond that, I haven't really thought of the particulars. Ever since I started playing this game I think the one thing that's annoyed me the most is that ships below capital-class can't carry manned fighters. A Neb-B frigate from Star Wars is 150m long, a little bigger than a Rifter, and even it can carry two squadrons (24 ships total) of X-wings. The 5,000m3 that a fighter uses in this game is somewhat ridiculous tbh, there's no way a ~20m long/wide ship is gonna take up that much space.


That is an amazing idea. A BS with fighters would be great. Throw in some Marauder-like skill requirements and it will be justifiable.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#12 - 2015-02-24 20:44:23 UTC
One of the things that battleships can generally do better than HACs and T3s is project good damage at ranges of 150km+ while maintaining a solid buffer tank. With the current meta favoring closer-range combat, this well-defined niche for battleships often gets ignored completely, or relegated to cheaper, more mobile ABCs performing hit-and-run raids.

Battleships have always been slow and the speed changes did hurt them, but I still believe that it was the movement away from sustained long-range combat that started the downward trend of battleship use in PvP fleets. So long as fleet fights favor closer range combat or hit-and-run sniping instead of sustained long-range fire, battleships will be at a disadvantage. Not useless mind you, but not as useful as they once were.

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KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2015-02-24 21:42:36 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
One of the things that battleships can generally do better than HACs and T3s is project good damage at ranges of 150km+ while maintaining a solid buffer tank. With the current meta favoring closer-range combat, this well-defined niche for battleships often gets ignored completely, or relegated to cheaper, more mobile ABCs performing hit-and-run raids.

Battleships have always been slow and the speed changes did hurt them, but I still believe that it was the movement away from sustained long-range combat that started the downward trend of battleship use in PvP fleets. So long as fleet fights favor closer range combat or hit-and-run sniping instead of sustained long-range fire, battleships will be at a disadvantage. Not useless mind you, but not as useful as they once were.


Projecting over 150km is kinda overrated when you can be probed and warped to...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2015-02-24 22:08:11 UTC
BS dont need a buff, T3 need their nerf.
Jallukola
#15 - 2015-02-24 22:13:25 UTC
Force Recon Battleships when?

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Yui Nagisa Sora
Odin's Brotherhood
#16 - 2015-02-24 22:18:07 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Hacs doing more dps than vindicator a eh?

Tanking more than abbadons

Are we playing the same game?




sure if you want to talk raw numbers, I'd say we're playing a different game, perhaps you're playing the game on a calculator
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2015-02-24 22:43:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
becuase on a pc a hac with out dps a bs ok

i guess ur op confused me becuase u didnt give much to go on. you just gave a blanket statement.

ofc bs will apply less damage to small targets but in raw dps wht u posted was crazy
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-02-24 23:13:21 UTC
Even assuming your point were all true, which they aren't, T3s are T3, HACs are T2, BSs are T1.
Get it now?

If you want to evaluate BSs, you need to compare them to cruisers and BCs.
In any case, BSs still have more raw HP and DPS than HACs and also have better range, more fitting room, bigger drone bays ect.

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Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-02-24 23:39:55 UTC
Battleships, mostly, just don't fit into the current meta. Too many things have been changed that have left them fairly obsolete in many cases. They're like EVE's antiques. Of course you can still use them for certain things, but odds are, in this day and age of EVE, something smaller does it better.
Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#20 - 2015-02-25 00:36:51 UTC
Jon Joringer wrote:
Battleships, mostly, just don't fit into the current meta. Too many things have been changed that have left them fairly obsolete in many cases. They're like EVE's antiques. Of course you can still use them for certain things, but odds are, in this day and age of EVE, something smaller does it better.


Well a rattlesnake or slightly blinged TFI is still a very good contender for pve and pvp roles. Mostly people try to evaluate battleships as solo vessels and while.some are built for the task e.g. hyperion others are much better when deployed in fleets like the rokh as they perform a fundamentally different role.

The same could be said for caracal vs moa where one is a dumb but dependable brick that works best with logi the other can be fit for multiple roles and in a pinch works solo or in fleets.

But for battleships specifically yes I think that most of the time people want to use them in a context they're not designed around. A high skilled player.can dish 800-1200 damage with long range weapons and basicly be bricky enough to deter being shot at in return.

The real trick question is the use of a carrier outside of blobs or a dread.
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