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Please explain steath patch to WH-space

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Russell Casey
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-12-03 17:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Wait, "Huss ein" is filtered now?
Let's test: Barack ******* Obama"


Osama Bin Laden

George Bush

Adolf Hitler

Hillary Clinton

Sarah Palin

Justin Beiber

**** Cheney
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#42 - 2011-12-03 17:07:55 UTC
Metaphors aside, all it really comes down to is that people unwilling to report bugs don't have an obligation to report them, but thereby create an obligation to either play a bugged game, quit, or wait for someone to report it for them. All equal fates IMHO.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pascaali
Dragon.
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2011-12-04 03:11:57 UTC
This topic is a HUGE problem for small corps, lets get the thread refocused, also there are a few other forum threads dealing w/ this issue, please chkout a similar post in the EVE Technology Lab forums.

Make no mistake CCP this is a deal killer for small WH corps! If your not currently in a small WH corp, or have in the past been actively in one, your going to have a hard time relating in a real way to the implications of not knowing if your static is spawned or not (please see similar forum thread in EVE Technology Lab forums). An approximate comparison for non WH dwellers would be you log on eve tomorrow and find that CCP has changed missions and incursions so that you now must dock and undock 20 times (with a 3min wait between docking cycles) in a 0.0 system w/o local every time before you run a string of missions or do a series of incursions. Further more you risk having your ship transported across the internet on the last docking attempt if you haven't kept careful tally, and if this does happen, you will be unable to JC back to your starting system. ***** and moan all you want about small corp WH dwellers, but if this restriction on the API jump counter doesn't change everyone can look forward to a yet another further depopulated area of the game.
D'Tell Annoh
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#44 - 2011-12-04 03:57:30 UTC
Again and again I see entire threads populated with these adjectives like "mysterious" as if the words someone once typed out is somehow an edict that must be followed at the cost of game play. Pursuing flavor text at the expense of gameplay is a poor priority decision. The game is enriched by the small corporations that populate wormholes. As someone in this thread said:
Tas Nok wrote:
I just don't understand... the one place where small-holding was actually possible in Eve just became a nightmare of uncertainty, day in and day out.
The settlements in wormholes enrich the game. It is the last real frontier for small corps, and it is already a very challenging life. CCP should be fostering this unexpected, emergent property and not trying to stifle and cripple it with preconceived notions.

I know that there are a lot of PvPers out there who want to support policies that populates their kill boards, but is this really the way you want to do it? You understand that as a PvP'er hunting down PvE'ers, you have a huge advantage in fitting, you have the element of suprise, and your prey aren't cloaked. How much more at a disadvantage do wh dellers have to be before you're happy with your odds?
Titania Hrothgar
Nemesis Retribution
#45 - 2011-12-04 04:13:49 UTC
Sweet Trader wrote:
Handsome ******* wrote:

My, aren't we an entitled little ****.


Nope... he's a paying customer with a perfectly reasonable view.


Yeah... his "reasonable" view is to sit back and cry about a bug rather than report it so it can get fixed quickly. Sounds VERY reasonable to me.

All the world's a stage and all the men and women are the players.
C4LYP50
Solarwind Interstellar Mining and Production Ltd
#46 - 2011-12-04 04:16:37 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Sweet Trader wrote:
[quote=Tas Nok]
The next step should be for CCP to remove the log of rat kills. The only intel that should be publicly available is player ship and pod kills, presumably public knowledge released by the insurance companies.


Ratitng payouts by concord



Shocked If only that were true in wormhole space. /facepalm
Titania Hrothgar
Nemesis Retribution
#47 - 2011-12-04 04:19:12 UTC
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Handsome ******* wrote:
Sweet Trader wrote:
Nope... he's a paying customer with a perfectly reasonable view.

Well, I suppose he should stop paying for EVE and walk away, since the QA so obviously sucks.

For the record, I certainly wouldn't want him as a customer. He's obviously too lazy to help himself.

It's a good thing you aren't a businessman then, as you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of how to treat a customer :) You seem pretty spiteful today. You mad because the customer base isn't giving CCP free labor?


You are sorely mistaken here. Customers are SUPPOSED to complain.... it's their job to ensure that they speak up in order to get what they pay for. THAT'S how businesses are run.

According to you, the customer is supposed to accept the fact that he just got substandard products or service because he didn't want to speak up for fear of giving them "free labor" in the form of a criticism. Have fun with your broken toy. I'm going to go get mine fixed.

All the world's a stage and all the men and women are the players.
Tas Nok
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2011-12-04 06:53:02 UTC
Pascaali wrote:
An approximate comparison for non WH dwellers would be you log on eve tomorrow and find that CCP has changed missions and incursions so that you now must dock and undock 20 times (with a 3min wait between docking cycles) in a 0.0 system w/o local every time before you run a string of missions or do a series of incursions. ... ***** and moan all you want about small corp WH dwellers, but if this restriction on the API jump counter doesn't change everyone can look forward to a yet another further depopulated area of the game.

I agree with this sentiment, but I don't believe I will be leaving anytime soon, as I stated in the OP, WH had become a place where small corps could reasonably secure their space and live away from the napfest of null, the piracy of LS and the complete boredom and monotony of HS. If you wanted danger/pvp you could always open up and go find someone willing to fight, if you wanted to mine or chain run anoms you could seal up and do that too. This is still possible, but I too need to waste more of my time than before by finding all the sigs and closing all wh because without jumps, even if the system just loaded... I have no idea if an incoming opened then DT passed.... I know even this isn't safe... a fleet of any size could pop in, log and just wait for my corpies to log in and still kill us all but that risk has always been there... all the Jump API did was help assess if I had recent jumps (how many) and helped gauge if I got the loading message, was my hole immediately safe or did I need to close up?
now I just have to close up every time. It is an inconvenience and an annoyance, but it doesn't increase my immersion, nor does it break wh for me....

Lord Noj wrote:
After spending a year and a half in a WH, just recently moving out, I used all that intel every single day and the intel drove what was done in the system EVERY SINGLE DAY. WIthout it, well, life would have been entirely different.

And now it is different... I still want to know WHY this was arbitrarily changed... I would prefer any number of changes to wh but this feels like getting hit with the nerf bat more and more... with the logistics pain of pos fuel (the new blocks are a wash, + for simplicity -for making me produce them to use them) the danger of being over-run by null sec or other WH corps, the danger of running out of w-space with valuable cargo, all made wh space more dangerous than nearly any place except a null-sec fleet battlefield...
I've already adapted and a friendly corp is talking about shutting down its operation and moving in with us because it really is just a pain/annoyance.
Lots of Good happened in this patch that makes our lives less grinding and broken (fixed ships, fixed weapons, fixed UI) apart from the bugs which will get fixed, this is the only place CCP introduced more grind, not less.
Tas Nok
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2011-12-04 07:03:24 UTC
D'Tell Annoh wrote:
Again and again I see entire threads populated with these adjectives like "mysterious" as if the words someone once typed out is somehow an edict that must be followed at the cost of game play. Pursuing flavor text at the expense of gameplay is a poor priority decision. The game is enriched by the small corporations that populate wormholes. As someone in this thread said:
Tas Nok wrote:
I just don't understand... the one place where small-holding was actually possible in Eve just became a nightmare of uncertainty, day in and day out.
The settlements in wormholes enrich the game. It is the last real frontier for small corps, and it is already a very challenging life. CCP should be fostering this unexpected, emergent property and not trying to stifle and cripple it with preconceived notions.

I know that there are a lot of PvPers out there who want to support policies that populates their kill boards, but is this really the way you want to do it? You understand that as a PvP'er hunting down PvE'ers, you have a huge advantage in fitting, you have the element of suprise, and your prey aren't cloaked. How much more at a disadvantage do wh dellers have to be before you're happy with your odds?

+1 to this, I always hear them saying they want to encourage small corps, and here we went and made the best of WH, and this change will force us to consolidate or move out, in order to have some better control.

also...
Sweet Trader wrote:
Tas Nok wrote:

The next step should be for CCP to remove the log of rat kills. The only intel that should be publicly available is player ship and pod kills, presumably public knowledge released by the insurance companies.


has been attributed to me a couple of times now, and just wanted to be clear I didn't write that. I do see some potential in removing all WH API info, but I would prefer to have the Jump API back not remove them all.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2011-12-05 09:56:59 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
Then please CCP be consequent and:


  • Remove intel of NPCs killed in WH Systems

  • Remove intel of Ships destroyes in WH Systems

  • Remove intel of Pods killed in WH Systems


I'd actually like to see local put in delayed mode for all other systems, free intel? Work for it!


Hey guys

We're reviewing the information the API provides in exploration space. The baseline is that it's unknown space and it seems like the API has been giving out a bit too much information. There will probably be further changes in this area.
Tas Nok
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-12-05 14:59:48 UTC
I do appreciate the straightforward answer, TY. as has been said in other posts we'll adapt and move on, many folks suspected this answer, I'm just glad to hear it as fact. I was also particularly interested in your response in another thread...
CCP Soundwave wrote:

I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed.

On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.


As others have said, I will repeat, no one in WH space wants it to be "safe", we just want enough tools so that its not suicidal (esp for small corps that cannot keep 23/7 watch on their patch of space) The API removal makes things annoying, but manageable. Please keep in mind there are several types of WH corps... indy corps, pvp corps and pve corps (and many variations) with varying sizes from several hundred in an alliance to a solo operator and his alts... no change will make them all happy but keeping it fair will be the best solution.


Knug LiDi
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2011-12-05 15:55:28 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


Hey guys

We're reviewing the information the API provides in exploration space. The baseline is that it's unknown space and it seems like the API has been giving out a bit too much information. There will probably be further changes in this area.


If you're going to wash jumps out of the API, take NPC kills with it. Go ahead a keep ship and pod kills, as CONCORD will probably have this info based on existing technology and services (insurance, clone usage). As the NPCs do not have bounties, this info should NOT be available for free.

While I have no trouble adapting to the sudden and unanticipated change to WH space, I find the lack of discussion/warning . . . troubling.

WH space has always been the most risky in EVE, I don't mind that at all, I just wish we had a little more warning. The difference between "no jumps this morning, follow slow day protocol" vs "the intel channel is dead, follow risky day protocol" is substantial in an area of space where getting podded carries a greater penalty than anywhere else in the game.

If only we could fall into a woman's arms

without falling into her hands
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#53 - 2011-12-05 17:12:45 UTC
Knug LiDi wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:


Hey guys

We're reviewing the information the API provides in exploration space. The baseline is that it's unknown space and it seems like the API has been giving out a bit too much information. There will probably be further changes in this area.


If you're going to wash jumps out of the API, take NPC kills with it. Go ahead a keep ship and pod kills, as CONCORD will probably have this info based on existing technology and services (insurance, clone usage). As the NPCs do not have bounties, this info should NOT be available for free.

While I have no trouble adapting to the sudden and unanticipated change to WH space, I find the lack of discussion/warning . . . troubling.

WH space has always been the most risky in EVE, I don't mind that at all, I just wish we had a little more warning. The difference between "no jumps this morning, follow slow day protocol" vs "the intel channel is dead, follow risky day protocol" is substantial in an area of space where getting podded carries a greater penalty than anywhere else in the game.


In wormholes, every day is "risky day". Every customs office has a cloaked T3 waiting to blow your PI hauler into next week. Every wormhole has a bubble and a camp on the other side waiting for you to come through. Every Sleeper site is being watched by a roaming gang waiting to jump you when your proverbial pants are down. Every sig has already been scanned by people looking for a chance to kill you.

It's much simpler to assume this... loss of jump API info doesn't really change that.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Knug LiDi
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2011-12-05 17:40:53 UTC

Quote:
It's much simpler to assume this... loss of jump API info doesn't really change that.


Very true. And part of our normal operating procedures.

The jump API info used to tell us if stuff like that had happened already; not a substitute for proper care but a prompt that there were fish in the water. Sharks or tuna - that would be for us to determine.

When the info from the API no longer appears, we had no way to know if that was because the WH was quiet, or the API wasn't sending the info any longer.

Prior notice would have been appropriate, that's all I'm saying.

Can you imagine CCP changing local in null to WH local without prior discussion or at least a warning in the patch notes? Why was W-space treated with less consideration?

If only we could fall into a woman's arms

without falling into her hands
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#55 - 2011-12-05 17:53:05 UTC
Knug LiDi wrote:

...
Can you imagine CCP changing local in null to WH local without prior discussion or at least a warning in the patch notes? Why was W-space treated with less consideration?


Oh, I can imagine it. Aaahhh... it's beautiful! The rage, the tears, the danger element of null almost restored at least a little...

Not fair to play with my emotions like that man! NOT FAIR!

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Malkev
Tribal Liberation Force
#56 - 2011-12-05 18:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Malkev
Pascaali wrote:
Make no mistake CCP this is a deal killer for small WH corps! If your not currently in a small WH corp, or have in the past been actively in one, your going to have a hard time relating in a real way to the implications of not knowing if your static is spawned or not (please see similar forum thread in EVE Technology Lab forums).

This just in: w-space is dangerous. HTFU and hit d-scan, the days of being absolutely sure of your safety are over. If you can't handle the possibility of losing a ship then go back to high sec. Risk / reward.

Pascaali wrote:
An approximate comparison for non WH dwellers would be you log on eve tomorrow and find that CCP has changed missions and incursions so that you now must dock and undock 20 times (with a 3min wait between docking cycles) in a 0.0 system w/o local every time before you run a string of missions or do a series of incursions. Further more you risk having your ship transported across the internet on the last docking attempt if you haven't kept careful tally, and if this does happen, you will be unable to JC back to your starting system.

This may be the worst comparison in the history of comparisons. You act like you aren't given any info on the health of a wormhole. You also act like you can't take 10 days or so and train a scan alt so you never get isolated from your system. You're probably one of those groups that goes back to mining after seeing combat probes in system.

All this change did is make it so you can't be absolutely sure of your systems isolation, that's it. Drop a combat probe @ 64AU, try not to run ops with a busy constellation, and keep an eye on d-scan. Not that hard.

Again, HTFU. This change did not effect me in any way, shape, or form. I went about my business like I did any other day.

Pascaali wrote:
***** and moan all you want about small corp WH dwellers, but if this restriction on the API jump counter doesn't change everyone can look forward to a yet another further depopulated area of the game.

I look forward to this depopulation greatly. Only downside is there will be fewer people to shoot at.

Knug LiDi wrote:
our normal operating procedures.

Which part covers solo Nag taking down CO's? P You never did tell me how long it took...
Malkev
Tribal Liberation Force
#57 - 2011-12-05 18:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Malkev
Double post pwnt.
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#58 - 2011-12-05 19:11:41 UTC
Personally, I am in the remove as much passive intel as possible boat.

Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Handsome ******* wrote:
Sweet Trader wrote:
Nope... he's a paying customer with a perfectly reasonable view.

Well, I suppose he should stop paying for EVE and walk away, since the QA so obviously sucks.

For the record, I certainly wouldn't want him as a customer. He's obviously too lazy to help himself.

It's a good thing you aren't a businessman then, as you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of how to treat a customer :) You seem pretty spiteful today. You mad because the customer base isn't giving CCP free labor?


So if you purchase a product and it malfunctions do you not report it to the manufacturer? This may be a little different, but for every person that does not report a bug you can be assured there is at least one that is trying to figure out a way to exploit it, therefore it is in your interest to go through bug reports. Granted it is cumbersome and maybe the process could be optimized a bit, but that is not an excuse for complacency.


Slade
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-12-05 19:22:45 UTC
Pascaali wrote:
This topic is a HUGE problem for small corps, lets get the thread refocused, also there are a few other forum threads dealing w/ this issue, please chkout a similar post in the EVE Technology Lab forums.

Make no mistake CCP this is a deal killer for small WH corps! If your not currently in a small WH corp, or have in the past been actively in one, your going to have a hard time relating in a real way to the implications of not knowing if your static is spawned or not (please see similar forum thread in EVE Technology Lab forums). An approximate comparison for non WH dwellers would be you log on eve tomorrow and find that CCP has changed missions and incursions so that you now must dock and undock 20 times (with a 3min wait between docking cycles) in a 0.0 system w/o local every time before you run a string of missions or do a series of incursions. Further more you risk having your ship transported across the internet on the last docking attempt if you haven't kept careful tally, and if this does happen, you will be unable to JC back to your starting system. ***** and moan all you want about small corp WH dwellers, but if this restriction on the API jump counter doesn't change everyone can look forward to a yet another further depopulated area of the game.


I'm in a small WH corp and this has not been a huge problem for securing our system. We know our statics, we scan the place daily, and we keep our eyes out for anything unusual. We knew when we had trapped a ratter in our system via holecrush (he didn't have probes, lulz) and when he suicided about a week and a half later. We tried to get him out sooner but he was a wily wascaly wabbit. We know when our statics are spawned, because we take steps to know. I honestly can't believe you're crying about holecrushing. it's a daily routine. You do it because you don't want to wake up in a spankin' new clone when someone nasty sneaks up on you.

I'm on the side of those asking for the complete intel removal. No ratting, no ships, no pods.
Hound Halfhand
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#60 - 2011-12-05 19:30:59 UTC
Honestly, for me and probably most of the other long term wormhole guys out there, the more people who live in W-space and conduct day to day activities there, the better. EVE is about interacting with other people, whether its killing them, trading with them or helping them out. If W-space is too hard to operate in and becomes empty, it will become home to small scale, hardcore multi-boxing ISK farming RMTers.

I've ganked plexing fleets and been ganked by plexing fleets and both were exciting, although I must admit being the ganker is more fun than the gankee. The main issue, which CCP cannot do anything about, is that EVE has a lot of really bad players and really good players and in W-space being a bad player can be expensive.