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The bane of the "One Medium Slot" ship
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Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-12-04 12:03:15 UTC
IMHO, the coercer is fine with 1 med slot. The cormorant has 1 low and these limitations force the destroyers in specific roles. Moreover, the coercer has enough turrets to kill most nasty frigs before they realise they need to get out.

The assault frigates however, are meant as a more general purpose ship. There isn't an AF with 1 low, instead the harpy and hawk both have the same slot layout, whereas for the other races, the AF's have different slot layouts. The 1 mid of the retribution severly limits the general frig tendency the other AF's have. But this should be looked ad together with the AF 4th bonus/reimagining thing that needs to happen.

TL,DR:
- coercer is fine, dps tackle best tackle
- retri isn't fine, but AF needs to be looked at anyways
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#42 - 2011-12-06 01:38:58 UTC
IceBergSlim wrote:
David Clausewitz wrote:
Roderick Tazinas wrote:
Solo -> Vengeance.
In fleet you have tacklers.
You need to use the right tool for the right job.


Every tool can do the same point/propulsion job except the Coercer and the Retribution.


David, what Roderick posted is just about the best - and politest, lol - answer you'll receive in here. Yes, agreed, those ships with one mid slot aren't what you would expect a pvp ship to have. However, what do you think the dev's were thinking when they created those ships? That they were insta-broken? No. They have a role. Just like every ship ingame. You just have to figure out what that role is and how best to utilise your chosen ship. Surely you realised this before training/buying one? I mean absolutely no offence by this, but Roderick has it nailed down.

Everything has a role and/or a purpose in EvE. It's just sometimes we don't see it. believe me, I know, lol.



And I may be mistaken, but isnt the Coercer the best of the Destroyers on dps and ehp while staying cap stable? If that is the case, then their role is rather straight forward... pew pew. :) If it is not the case... well *cough* maybe a change could be looked at.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#43 - 2011-12-06 02:18:44 UTC
Have solo killed in a Retribution crew checking in.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-12-06 17:56:09 UTC
The 1-mid ship.
Designed to sacrifice tackle in favour of doing much higher DPS. Great concept, IMHO.

... The rather large problem with this being that the other assault frigates and destroyers can do as much, if not more DPS and can still mount both mobility and tackle.

To put this about as bluntly as I can: if a ship is going to be a one-trick pony, it should be better at that trick than the others.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2011-12-06 17:58:18 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Have solo killed in a Retribution crew checking in.


What did you kill? A cruiser without propulsion mod? A noob in a T1 frigate? A drunken ceptor pilot? Lol

Please tell.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#46 - 2011-12-06 18:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Have warped off laughing from a solo Coercer crew checking in.

Oh also:
Quote:
Moreover, the coercer has enough turrets to kill most stupid frigs before they realise they need to get out.

Fixed.
Worpout
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
#47 - 2011-12-06 19:22:56 UTC
Kite no tank it like a boss
Khrage
#48 - 2011-12-06 19:47:20 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
The 1-mid ship.
Designed to sacrifice tackle in favour of doing much higher DPS. Great concept, IMHO.

... The rather large problem with this being that the other assault frigates and destroyers can do as much, if not more DPS and can still mount both mobility and tackle.

To put this about as bluntly as I can: if a ship is going to be a one-trick pony, it should be better at that trick than the others.


+1
Grog Drinker
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2011-12-06 20:11:02 UTC
The bigger problem is the lack of usable laser boats below the BC size in general. For a pilot wanting to fly solo amarr boats you can use a laser punisher but the jump between that and a harbinger is pretty dismal. The only worthwhile step up from a punisher is the crusader or slicer. The retribution and coercer are unusable due to the lack of mids. The omen is worthless because of its power grid and cpu.

The punisher, maller, and prophecy also generally work better with AC's anyway.

Give the retribution and coercer another mid each and we will see many more small laser boats in pvp.

Also if your gonna fly internet spaceships they damn well better be shooting flashy lasers...
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-12-06 20:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Grog Drinker wrote:
The bigger problem is the lack of usable laser boats below the BC size in general. For a pilot wanting to fly solo amarr boats you can use a laser punisher but the jump between that and a harbinger is pretty dismal. The only worthwhile step up from a punisher is the crusader or slicer. The retribution and coercer are unusable due to the lack of mids. The omen is worthless because of its power grid and cpu.

The punisher, maller, and prophecy also generally work better with AC's anyway.

Give the retribution and coercer another mid each and we will see many more small laser boats in pvp.

Also if your gonna fly internet spaceships they damn well better be shooting flashy lasers...

Yes. The Slicer is pricey, and so is the Navy Omen, and those are the only usable sub-BC solo laser boats Amarr gets, unless you count "requires flying on a knife edge" as usable (aka the 'Sader). And don't even get me started about the Zealot...it simply isn't funny what a pack o' frigs can do to that ship.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-12-06 20:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Yeah that is a depressingly short list.

Quote:
it simply isn't funny what a pack o' frigs can do to that ship.

A valid point, or it would be if the Zealot wasn't a gang ship rather than solo (a role in which it is superb)

There's also the Phantasm, but not sure if that really counts...
carbomb
Super Team Munkey
#52 - 2011-12-06 21:56:21 UTC
I agree that having 1 mid slot is a bit of a hindrance, however, the ships are very usable without that 2nd mid. I love flying the coercer solo. It is great at killing over confident dramiel pilots Lol They brawl into a fight with both feet with the notion that they can just burn away or warp off if things dont go to plan. Unfortunately for them by the time they realise things are turning sour its too late Twisted

Not had too many fights in the retri. Its a good mix of tank/dps tho.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2011-12-06 22:00:56 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Yeah that is a depressingly short list.

Quote:
it simply isn't funny what a pack o' frigs can do to that ship.

A valid point, or it would be if the Zealot wasn't a gang ship rather than solo (a role in which it is superb)

There's also the Phantasm, but not sure if that really counts...

I agree that the Zealot is a fantastic gang ship. Just don't ever try to fly one solo, or else I'll have to come hunt you down and blow you to bits for it.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#54 - 2011-12-06 22:17:00 UTC
Grog Drinker wrote:
The bigger problem is the lack of usable laser boats below the BC size in general. For a pilot wanting to fly solo amarr boats you can use a laser punisher but the jump between that and a harbinger is pretty dismal. The only worthwhile step up from a punisher is the crusader or slicer. The retribution and coercer are unusable due to the lack of mids. The omen is worthless because of its power grid and cpu.

The punisher, maller, and prophecy also generally work better with AC's anyway.

Give the retribution and coercer another mid each and we will see many more small laser boats in pvp.

Also if your gonna fly internet spaceships they damn well better be shooting flashy lasers...



+1 Pirate

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#55 - 2011-12-07 08:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Retri is one of the best L2 Frigats you can get :). Most times faster then any cruiser and much more fun to fly.

If you use the util high for a probe launcher the Retri is great for up to 3/10 deadspace which mostly contain frig size enemys.

Hell, it is even great at 00 belt rating in Providence.

And it does a very good job as sniper(50+km)/DPS(up to 288) platform in gangs. Not both at the same time ;).

PS: and btw. NOT every ship in EVE must be PvP able! Just learn to except, that some are made for PvE ;).
Not? Well, why the hell aren't mining barks able to fit propper tanks and ... see my sig damit!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#56 - 2011-12-07 13:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
And it does a very good job as sniper(50+km)/DPS(up to 288) platform in gangs. Not both at the same time ;).


Frigate sized sniper is not a role.

Quote:
PS: and btw. NOT every ship in EVE must be PvP able! Just learn to except, that some are made for PvE ;).

Correct, some ships are not intended for PVP. These include mining barges and, to some extent, Marauders.
This category does not however include assault frigates, which are PVP ships, and if one underperforms in that role there is a problem.

And by the way, speaking of roles that don't exist: PVE AF is one of them. Mission running AFs are a gimmick, at best, and not even remotely worth using compared to a proper PVE ship.

Oh and by the way, if your sig is serious, you're an idiot.
(Yeah the rest of your post was dumb enough that I honestly can't tell if you actually meant it)
Aine Morchet
Beautiful Space
#57 - 2011-12-07 13:41:05 UTC
I tried to find videos of Coercer PvP.

Every single one is a Coercer being killed by the filmer. There is not a single PvP vid where a Coercer actually kills something.

'sup 1 med slot.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#58 - 2011-12-07 13:43:15 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
There is no reason for a pvp ship to ever have only 1 midslot. If you don't have a point, most FC's will laugh you out of their fleet. Yes there are ways around it, but realistically all it does is gimp that ship in comparison to other hulls.



Then I Will laugh at the FC who does that there are several ships who work better as a DPS platform and there are ships that tackle.
to have a point on each ship in a fleet is a waste of Midslot.

30 to 40 % of fleet members should fit points of some kind after that you should have EW of Prop mod.

Situation changes even more if you have Interdictors and Heavy Interdictors then even less normal points is needed
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#59 - 2011-12-07 13:43:24 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
There is no reason for a pvp ship to ever have only 1 midslot. If you don't have a point, most FC's will laugh you out of their fleet. Yes there are ways around it, but realistically all it does is gimp that ship in comparison to other hulls.



Then I Will laugh at the FC who does that there are several ships who work better as a DPS platform and there are ships that tackle.
to have a point on each ship in a fleet is a waste of Midslot.

30 to 40 % of fleet members should fit points of some kind after that you should have EW of Prop mod.

Situation changes even more if you have Interdictors and Heavy Interdictors then even less normal points is needed
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-12-07 13:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
to have a point on each ship in a fleet is a waste of Midslot.


No, to have a frigate without a point is a waste of a ship.
(With the obvious exception of the Griffin/Kitsune)

If you're in a frigate, and you don't have a point, frankly you need a damn good reason - and the Retribution doesn't have one. The DPS it puts out isn't that impressive compared to other AFs.