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Will turrets ever see the same love that (rapid fire) missiles got?

Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#21 - 2015-02-24 19:56:30 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
if the problem is already fixed by just fitting smaller weapons then there is no need to add anything else.....

The problem isn't, because of ship bonuses. (Which apparently are wonky for guns already on the smallest size turrets.).
Cruisers all get bonuses to RLML and BS to RHML now. (A couple of exceptions still I 'think' which make no sense even then). Only BC don't get the bonuses.

This could quite easily be done to all guns.



he said to drop the dps down to frig level many cruisers can do this w/o bonuses (not to t2 frig levels but t1) no they don't have bonuses rather they tend to have more hard points.


missiles have RLML and RHML because larger weapons can never apply full damage to a smaller target like turrets can this gives them a defense against smaller ships.


where turrets need to obtain this through Superior piloting these missile systems do it by sacrificing long term DPS
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#22 - 2015-02-24 20:23:34 UTC
I don't see any reason why this couldn't apply to turreted weapons. Some caveats:
• Only beam lasers, artillery and railguns (there is no rapid-fire equivalent for rockets, heavy assault missiles or torpedoes)
• One medium weapon type (small ammo) and one large weapon type (medium ammo) for each
• Artillery would have a reload similar to missiles, lasers would have a +% capacitor use and hybrids would be a combination

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2015-02-24 20:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I don't see any reason why this couldn't apply to turreted weapons. Some caveats:
• Only beam lasers, artillery and railguns (there is no rapid-fire equivalent for rockets, heavy assault missiles or torpedoes)
• One medium weapon type (small ammo) and one large weapon type (medium ammo) for each
• Artillery would have a reload similar to missiles, lasers would have a +% capacitor use and hybrids would be a combination


... so what is the drawback for the lasers again when i pare it up with a guardian or two?



also remember that light missiles an heavy missiles aren't chosen because they are the slower firing but because they are the ones that apply damage the poorest. a light missile will never be able to apply full damage to a properly fit frig w/o the help of ewar turret based weapons would not have this problem
ApolloF117 HUN
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#24 - 2015-02-24 21:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ApolloF117 HUN
sure, why turrets have problem applying dmg to smaller ships? i think no, but you can have all these when missiles have the module what gives them less explo radius and more explo velocity...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#25 - 2015-02-24 21:18:53 UTC
ApolloF117 HUN wrote:
sure, why turrets have problem applying dmg to smaller ships? i think no, but you can have all these when missiles have the module what gives them less explo radius and more explo velocity...

please no to this they do not need them rather many of the ships that are only bonusd to one type of damage need to be just a blanket damage boost so application comes from finding resist holes rather than expl rad/vel
Sadew42
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#26 - 2015-02-24 21:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sadew42
Wrong thread. Delete me please.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#27 - 2015-02-24 22:07:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I don't see any reason why this couldn't apply to turreted weapons. Some caveats:
• Only beam lasers, artillery and railguns (there is no rapid-fire equivalent for rockets, heavy assault missiles or torpedoes)
• One medium weapon type (small ammo) and one large weapon type (medium ammo) for each
• Artillery would have a reload similar to missiles, lasers would have a +% capacitor use and hybrids would be a combination


... so what is the drawback for the lasers again when i pare it up with a guardian or two?



also remember that light missiles an heavy missiles aren't chosen because they are the slower firing but because they are the ones that apply damage the poorest. a light missile will never be able to apply full damage to a properly fit frig w/o the help of ewar turret based weapons would not have this problem
The drawback of lasers is high cap use. It has always been, it will always be. It is no small drawback, those things eat capacitor, and can't be fired without it. So, just make rapid fire lasers have a cap use similar to that of regular weapons their size (that is: a medium rapid laser made of small lasers will have medium-sized cap use, and so on).
Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-02-24 22:54:00 UTC
I dont understand which "problems" will solve this thread. There is no problem at all, you fly a cruiser with beams and got cough by 5 frigs? If you wanted to hunt frigs then you should use one.
If a frig goes under your weapons and cant shoot him/her nor drones help, because they shooted down, then it isnt your lucky day.

We dont need big ships with small guns.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#29 - 2015-02-25 04:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Katabrok First wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
might just be easier to give electrons, and other under utilised lower grade turrets, faster tracking.

It effectively does the same thing but without complexity. Electrons are like small neutrons turrets with longer range, higher fitting costs and their medium ammo is economically little different to several small rounds.

its not like launchers where the missile itself dictates damage, application and range and is critical for concept to work. Instead with turrets everything can be tweaked on the gun and there is no necessity to use small ammo.

Similar discussion

I'd have to disagree a little with you there. You are forgetting signature resolution, which impacts directly your tracking. If you up tracking enough to overcome the smaller size of ships a class below your actual class, you make its tracking too strong against its own class and above.


1 - you can change the signature res of a turret
2- tracking and signature resolution are pretty much interchangeable if you dont mind ignoring the transversal on your overview. a 100% boost to tracking is exactly the same as halfing sig res. I learned this the hard way.

sabre906 wrote:
Rapid small guns may have some issues, such as offering something of a tackler immunity.

Rapid medium guns would be a good idea. We may see a comeback of battleship gangs, to the detriment of Ishtar/tengu blobs. It can help shift the balance of Eve player mentality towards committing to a fight, instead of the current risk aversion meta where everyone flies slippery tengu/ishtar fleets that pull out at the earliest possibility of losses, simply because they can.

This will save a lot of wasted time and frustration on both sides of the 2 tengu/ishtar fleets attempting to shoot each other. Watch this on a covops on grid is like watching 2 retards trying to hit each other with sticks - excruciating.


id stay away from 'rapid guns'. cause that IS tackler immunity. But you should also remember, when fitting for anti-frig you become weaker against anti cruiser and anti-battleship.

Where the old launchers were using small ammo, with small application and small-LONG range they were OP. But turrets could perform completely differently.

A medium electron with faster tracking does not have the range of small rails. It doesnt HAVE to have the tracking of small rails. It doesnt have to have the tracking of small neutrons or anything for that matter. Because every stat is modifiable on the turret itself it does not suffer any of the constraints that launcher variants had. You can make it whatever you need it to be.

Like i said, you could just buff tracking of rarely used weapons and make a frig killer that isnt OP like the old assaults and doesnt necessarily need the same treatment.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Lugh Crow-Slave
#30 - 2015-02-25 04:36:57 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
The drawback of lasers is high cap use. It has always been, it will always be. It is no small drawback, those things eat capacitor, and can't be fired without it. So, just make rapid fire lasers have a cap use similar to that of regular weapons their size (that is: a medium rapid laser made of small lasers will have medium-sized cap use, and so on).




So again you now get the bonus of hitting below your class with no draw back.


using the same amount of cap as the other lasers is not a draw back
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2015-02-25 04:46:20 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
The drawback of lasers is high cap use. It has always been, it will always be. It is no small drawback, those things eat capacitor, and can't be fired without it. So, just make rapid fire lasers have a cap use similar to that of regular weapons their size (that is: a medium rapid laser made of small lasers will have medium-sized cap use, and so on).




So again you now get the bonus of hitting below your class with no draw back.


using the same amount of cap as the other lasers is not a draw back


If that was done, these would have to use more cap than the typical weapon they are meant to replace. The whole premise behind the 'rapid' concept is to inflict bursts of damage with long waiting periods inbetween.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-02-25 04:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
Actually I'd rather they lose application and reload speed for absurd burst DPS and projection.

guns can already apply good damage to smaller targets several size classes under with good piloting, with missiles you get what you get at no burden on the pilot. that's why good application cost you a 40 second reload timer.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#33 - 2015-02-25 04:54:25 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Actually I'd rather they lose application and reload speed for absurd burst DPS and projection.



do you have an alt in uedama by any chance?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Lugh Crow-Slave
#34 - 2015-02-25 04:58:59 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Actually I'd rather they lose application and reload speed for absurd burst DPS and projection.

guns can already apply good damage to smaller targets several size classes under with good piloting, with missiles you get what you get at no burden on the pilot. that's why good application cost you a 40 second reload timer.



Fit polarized you get amazing DPS but you need to kill the target and get out in a short amount of time these work even better when you can hide them in mid sized fleets
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2015-02-25 05:08:34 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Actually I'd rather they lose application and reload speed for absurd burst DPS and projection.

guns can already apply good damage to smaller targets several size classes under with good piloting, with missiles you get what you get at no burden on the pilot. that's why good application cost you a 40 second reload timer.



Fit polarized you get amazing DPS but you need to kill the target and get out in a short amount of time these work even better when you can hide them in mid sized fleets


- too expensive
- cuts in to an already paper thin tank kiting ships have.... that are not the Ishtar, Orthros, ONI, and ScyFI
- not actually burst DPS, its just more of it.

and I'm not sure this applies to other polarized weapons but polarized ACs have an awful falloff.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#36 - 2015-02-25 05:11:51 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Actually I'd rather they lose application and reload speed for absurd burst DPS and projection.

guns can already apply good damage to smaller targets several size classes under with good piloting, with missiles you get what you get at no burden on the pilot. that's why good application cost you a 40 second reload timer.



Fit polarized you get amazing DPS but you need to kill the target and get out in a short amount of time these work even better when you can hide them in mid sized fleets


- too expensive
- cuts in to an already paper thin tank kiting ships have.... that are not the Ishtar, Orthros, ONI, and ScyFI
- not actually burst DPS, its just more of it.

and I'm not sure this applies to other polarized weapons but polarized ACs have an awful falloff.





you are using them against sub class ships so makes seance to give up something in this case tank

and yes they are burst dps if you need to sustain it you will not be around long enough

and no they are not long range systems
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#37 - 2015-02-25 07:35:42 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... so what is the drawback for the lasers again when i pare it up with a guardian or two?

Honestly, you got me...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#38 - 2015-02-25 07:44:53 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... so what is the drawback for the lasers again when i pare it up with a guardian or two?

Honestly, you got me...


gets even more fun when you fit a few to a bhaal now you have the cap to run them and the web to slow even frigs when you are using the proposed raped meds
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#39 - 2015-02-25 07:48:35 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
gets even more fun when you fit a few to a bhaal now you have the cap to run them and the web to slow even frigs when you are using the proposed raped meds

No doubt... Crystals could be set to deteriorate at a higher rate, but I'm not sure if that would solve the underlying problem. Most likely lasers would have to have a slower rate of fire when compared to the other 'rapid' weapons such that the DPS is balanced.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-02-25 11:21:28 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... so what is the drawback for the lasers again when i pare it up with a guardian or two?

Honestly, you got me...


I'm not sure when guardians are added to the mix, that the infinite ammo is actually the problem.

However, if you really want to balance it well, the easiest thing is to make it a module and attach restrictions to that in the same manner (NOT necessarily the same bonuses, mods listed just to give an idea of "restricted" mods) as siege, triage and so forth.

To be honest though, I think this would create horrible balance problems. I have in the past suggested that bigger ships just get bonuses right down the stack (like the guristas ships do for missiles) but folks had concerns even then. Adding something like that on steroids would be very nasty.

My gut feel thinks something like this might work well only on the BC hulls - give them something a bit unique to get them into service a little more. They're lacking in the current meta quite badly because of the increased cruiser speed and power, they need to reassert themselves on the food chain and this might be a good way to do it.
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