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CCP take heed: the BIG error/omission in Crucible

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xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-12-01 19:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxak
Hybrid Gun ships just aren't used much, especially on the Caldari side.

Honestly, when was the last time you saw a Ferox in a fleet? 2007? What about a Moa? Even Megathrons and Thoraxs are a rare sight in fleets where the people know what they are doing or can possibly fly Amarr or Minmatar ships.

Why? Rails and blasters have sucked for a long time. Especially Rails. Especially on unbonused (damage) ships.

Even after the patch, rails have very little alpha, which even as "buffed" makes them mostly useless as PvP weapons.

Rather outrageously and egregiously, CCP has ignored the fact that modern PvP fleets do not snipe at ranges over 150, thus making the rail "range advantage" totally irrelevant and garbage. This was pointed out several times in several threads, so CCP either ignored players again, or is just not smart.

CCP needs to face up to this fact, bite the bullet, admit that they were wrong, and tweak rails so they have similar DPS with similar alpha to at least beam lasers. Yes, it will reduce "diversity" a bit, but it will open up TWO ENTIRE RACES of ships again, which is the equivalent of a HUGE patch worth of "new" content, and would more than offset the lack of "diversity" in weapon systems. Players don't care if lasers and rails do similar damage profiles. Players care if they can fly cool looking ships.

TIPPIA CALL OUT:

Tippia, I think you are in need of a callout. Please explain this post you made recently:

Quote:
The torp version was downright silly, and the Caldari need more hybrid ships anyway. Also, Mini-Rokh for those of us who will never fly battleships = win!


Are you saying that you don't even fly BS? Yet you comment on every BS/Blob/Cap thread in the game?

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2011-12-01 19:07:05 UTC
…on the other hand, TiDi makes alpha less of a requirement and lets plain old DPS become more of a factor.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#3 - 2011-12-01 19:07:52 UTC
what does this have to do with supercaps?
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#4 - 2011-12-01 19:08:08 UTC
You are officially the worst poster in GD, xxxak. That's an accomplishment. Be proud of it. Wear it with honor.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-12-01 19:08:38 UTC
The warp distance being set at 150 does preclude most sniping fits. CCP may want to take a look at expanding it to, say, 200km, or perhaps the hard-coded lock limit of 250, so that sniping is viable again. Obviously, there are some downsides to this.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-12-01 19:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxak
Tippia wrote:
…on the other hand, TiDi makes alpha less of a requirement and lets plain old DPS become more of a factor.


On the other hand, you are wrong.

If anything Time Dilation will make repping more reliable and make it easier to keep up with reliably locking new targets and getting reps on them.

In fact, Time Dilation will be a HUGE BUFF to repping in large fleets.

Tippia, do you even PLAY this game?

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#7 - 2011-12-01 19:10:52 UTC
xxxak wrote:
......
CCP needs to face up to this fact, bite the bullet, admit that they were wrong, and tweak rails so they have similar DPS with similar alpha to at least beam lasers. Yes, it will reduce "diversity" a bit, but it will open up TWO ENTIRE RACES of ships again, which is the equivalent of a HUGE patch worth of "new" content, and would more than offset the lack of "diversity" in weapon systems. Players don't care if lasers and rails do similar damage profiles. Players care if they can fly cool looking ships.



I thought CCP just remade all the laser turret models?

You want them to change them again?
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-12-01 19:12:44 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
xxxak wrote:
......
CCP needs to face up to this fact, bite the bullet, admit that they were wrong, and tweak rails so they have similar DPS with similar alpha to at least beam lasers. Yes, it will reduce "diversity" a bit, but it will open up TWO ENTIRE RACES of ships again, which is the equivalent of a HUGE patch worth of "new" content, and would more than offset the lack of "diversity" in weapon systems. Players don't care if lasers and rails do similar damage profiles. Players care if they can fly cool looking ships.



I thought CCP just remade all the laser turret models?

You want them to change them again?


I'm not talking about the graphics. I'm talking about the actual function.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#9 - 2011-12-01 19:13:27 UTC
Mate.. not only have many hybrid ships been viable platforms in PVP for a long time now, but most of them are getting significantly better this patch.

Are they alpha boats? No. They fill a different role, and are better than pure alpha fleets in many situations.

Maybe quit flying in blobs so big that the only thing which matters is alpha?
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-12-01 19:15:08 UTC
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
Mate.. not only have many hybrid ships been viable platforms in PVP for a long time now, but most of them are getting significantly better this patch.

Are they alpha boats? No. They fill a different role, and are better than pure alpha fleets in many situations.

Maybe quit flying in blobs so big that the only thing which matters is alpha?


Let's get to brass tacks. What size gangs are you talking about?

I am talking about anything over about 25. Which is a lot of the PvP in EVE these days, unless you are a low-sec gatehugger pirate.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#11 - 2011-12-01 19:19:44 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
xxxak wrote:
......
CCP needs to face up to this fact, bite the bullet, admit that they were wrong, and tweak rails so they have similar DPS with similar alpha to at least beam lasers. Yes, it will reduce "diversity" a bit, but it will open up TWO ENTIRE RACES of ships again, which is the equivalent of a HUGE patch worth of "new" content, and would more than offset the lack of "diversity" in weapon systems. Players don't care if lasers and rails do similar damage profiles. Players care if they can fly cool looking ships.



I thought CCP just remade all the laser turret models?

You want them to change them again?



You sir, are a idiot.











and your brain had a hiccup reading what I wrote.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#12 - 2011-12-01 19:20:43 UTC
xxxak wrote:
On the other hand, you are wrong.
Nope.
Quote:
If anything Time Dilation will make repping more reliable
…which isn't a problem since you can now easily out-DPS it, unlike before and since you can now effectively target-switch to throw off the reppers. Alpha is no longer the only way to apply damage and to defeat repping — I'm sorry if this makes things too hard for you.

Maybe you should play the game a bit more and learn how to do it.
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#13 - 2011-12-01 19:24:30 UTC
Xtover wrote:

You sir, are a idiot.











and your brain had a hiccup reading what I wrote.



Nevermind, didn't realize I had to aim lower, next one will land in the numbers, not over the helmet.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-12-01 19:28:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
xxxak wrote:
On the other hand, you are wrong.
Nope.
Quote:
If anything Time Dilation will make repping more reliable
…which isn't a problem since you can now easily out-DPS it, unlike before and since you can now effectively target-switch to throw off the reppers. Alpha is no longer the only way to apply damage and to defeat repping — I'm sorry if this makes things too hard for you.

Maybe you should play the game a bit more and learn how to do it.


You might be right for the very largest Sov battles where incoming DPS is off the charts. But for most "daily" pvp, I'm pretty sure you are wrong.

In any case, what is your objection to giving Rails a bit more alpha?

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#15 - 2011-12-01 19:42:29 UTC
xxxak wrote:

Let's get to brass tacks. What size gangs are you talking about?

I am talking about anything over about 25. Which is a lot of the PvP in EVE these days, unless you are a low-sec gatehugger pirate.


Well, the change over point between when alpha becomes preferable to damage projection depends heavily on the exact situation. I can say that there are viable counters to alpha fleet up until about the 40-50 ship mark.

90% of the PVP I get into is up-engaging against 10-30 man fleets. The only times alpha fleet really works well in these situations are when the enemy is just comped with an absurd amount of logi, and you actually have the numbers to pull it off. Even then, effective skirmishing and shaping the fight is just as capable of breaking their fleet as alpha is.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2011-12-01 19:43:03 UTC
xxxak wrote:
In any case, what is your objection to giving Rails a bit more alpha?
They don't particularly need it. They may need a bit more damage still, but we'll see how it pans out as the new combat environment gets properly probed and tested.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-12-01 19:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxak
Tippia wrote:
xxxak wrote:
In any case, what is your objection to giving Rails a bit more alpha?
They don't particularly need it. They may need a bit more damage still, but we'll see how it pans out as the new combat environment gets properly probed and tested.


You didn't answer my question. Why don't they need it? Name ONE situation where it would be better to take a rail ship than an arty ship or a laser ship? They sucked, and they still suck, relative to all other pvp weapon systems. Buffing their alpha would open up a fair amount of "new" content, in the form of viable/competitive rail ships for pvp.

Finally, I thought about it more, and Time Dilation won't change a thing. With the current servers, fleets of 2/300 vs 2/300 work just fine on most nodes/situations.

That is already more DPS/alpha etc than most logi setups can handle. So this thread/issue is not focused on very large and extremely large PvP where TiDi matters.

Let's talk more about 50 v 50 or 100 v 100 fights. You know, the fun kind. In those senarios, I can't think of ONE FC/Alliance that will suddenly switch to a rail platform. They just still suck too hard.

Are YOU going to start flying rail platforms?

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-12-01 19:58:51 UTC
I think rails now are better than they were before Crucible...they are however, still second to everything else. For damage I would rather fly an Oracle with Beams than a Naga with Rails. I would still rather fly an Oracle with Pulse than a Talos with Blasters.

I can't fly the Tornado so I won't mention it as I know nothing of it's performance.

Rails specifically and the ships made to use them do need a little bit of a buff in damage to make them comparable to other weapon types. Yes they get a bonus to range but it is hardly a good compromise.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-12-01 20:00:37 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I think rails now are better than they were before Crucible...they are however, still second to everything else.


This. Until they are at least "as good" no one with a brain will use them.

PS Hi Vertisce. :)

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#20 - 2011-12-01 20:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dradius Calvantia
xxxak wrote:
Tippia wrote:
xxxak wrote:
In any case, what is your objection to giving Rails a bit more alpha?
They don't particularly need it. They may need a bit more damage still, but we'll see how it pans out as the new combat environment gets properly probed and tested.


You didn't answer my question. Why don't they need it? Name ONE situation where it would be better to take a rail ship than an arty ship or a laser ship? They sucked, and they still suck, relative to all other pvp weapon systems. Buffing their alpha would open up a fair amount of "new" content, in the form of viable rail ships for pvp.

Finally, I thought about it more, and Time Dilation won't change a thing. With the current servers, fleets of 2/300 vs 2/300 work just fine on most nodes/situations.

That is already more DPS/alpha etc than most logi setups can handle. So this thread/issue is not focused on very large and extremely large PvP where TiDi matters.

Let's talk more about 50 v 50 or 100 v 100 fights. You know, the fun kind. In those senarios, I can't thin of ONE FC/Alliance that will suddenly switch to a rail platform. They just still suck too hard.


Mate... you are asking us to name a situation where DPS means more than Alpha, and then dismissing all of the situations besides the only one in which Alpha matters (the blob.)

PVP exists outside of the blob you know. When you are talking about simply trowing as many numbers as you can at a problem while ignoring any kind of tactics; then yes, there will always be exactly one ship and one fit that is the best at doing that. How would making every weapon system in the game do the exact same thing add any kind of diversity to that? Because they have different models and names?

In the mean time, homogenizing all the ships and weapons in the game would greatly simplify PVP for the rest of us.

Fake Edit: The idea that orbiting an anchor and pressing F1 is "the fun kind" of PVP is highly debatable. I personally think that shooting rocks is more interesting.
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