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Capital T2 Guns

Author
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-02-15 11:28:07 UTC
What fleet is that - an archon absolution and erebus where are everyone else? Must be another carriers to support or either sc as well, so your 30-50 nagls should be multiplied by 2 at least.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Anthar Thebess
#22 - 2015-02-15 11:38:28 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
What fleet is that - an archon absolution and erebus where are everyone else? Must be another carriers to support or either sc as well, so your 30-50 nagls should be multiplied by 2 at least.

We dropped 300+ dreads.
Yes local was big, but node was reinforced.

In normal engagements , quite often i used dred so believe me - TIDI and dreads - this do not work.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-02-15 11:54:40 UTC
Thanks for comment but really was asking a guy above you.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#24 - 2015-02-15 12:06:55 UTC
The whole capital ship line is in dire need of a rebalance. Which I'm sure they will get in 1 or 2 mini-expansions, given we're almost done with the subcaps.

Once the rebalance comes, I think there really isn't a good reason not to have T2 guns on them, along with the benefits and drawbacks of T2 ammo. I look forward to it.

We'll have to wait a bit more, but it will come.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#25 - 2015-02-15 17:18:20 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
What fleet is that - an archon absolution and erebus where are everyone else? Must be another carriers to support or either sc as well, so your 30-50 nagls should be multiplied by 2 at least.


It was the absolute worst case scenario for the tankiest Archon possible. So that he couldn't later come back and whine about how I misrepresented the EHP of the Archon far lower that it might be. I am fully aware that it is not a very realistic scenario.

And that number if how many it takes to Alpha one Archon, regardless of how many slowcats are trading reps.. Obviously you want to bring more than the bare minimum, but past 40 or so it doesn't matter how many slowcats they have when you fire, since the target dies in one volley.

Anthar Thebess wrote:
Tip.
Under heavy TIDI dread guns don't work.

Sorry i tried this multiple times.
Dreads and TIDI - this simply don't work.


They work fine in Tidi. They don't work fine in soul crushing lag like HED-GP, but that's quite a bit further past 10% tidi. Nothing worked well there except titan DD's, and that because DD's are far less hampered by module lag than anything else in the game, due to their one shot nature and log cycle timers.

But here's a tip: You balance ships around normal gameplay situations. You do not balance them around soul crushing lag with 3800 people in local.

You are basing your statement about how they need buffs based on how they performed poorly in a super heavy module lag enviroment, far past what the EVE server was designed for. But here's a protip: T1 guns that won't cycle due to module lag resulting in your death during soul crushing lag STILL WON'T CYCLE IF THEY WERE T2.

In any brawl short of the 2k mark, while tidi is significant, module lag is minor. And dreads work just as well as everything else in mere heavy TiDi, until you get so many nerds that the server cries itself to sleep and soul crushing lag emerges.

But once again, nothing you can do will make dreads useful in sole crushing lag. Even if CFC/RUS dreads has doubled damage in HED-GP, they still would have died because the majority of them jumping in with 3500 already in local simply never loaded grid. Of the ones who did, many never could fire or enter siege, due to the lag. While the titans could accept a 5 minute delay on their doomsdays without issues.

TLDR: Ships not performing well in soul crushing lag is not a reason to buff something. Nothing performs well there.

Lienzo
Amanuensis
#26 - 2015-02-15 18:25:06 UTC
I think it's economically critical that dreads shoot out things that are made from moon minerals. While I'm sure no-one is thrilled with the idea of interceptors and such costing more than they already do, I think that is more of a problem of low volumetric demand for R8s and R16s. If it was more like T1 build reqs, trebling the price of R64s would only increase prices by 2%.

Making T2 capital guns and T2 capital ammo would be a great start, but making a whole class of Tech C would be even better. Tech C would simply roll jump freighters, dreads, carriers and supers all into the same category. Ideally, it could consume moon minerals and regular minerals without invention.

It would establish all the capital ships as a final implementation of that end of the game, and eliminate the need for T2 caps altogether, while still tying them industrially, economically and politically to territorial access.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-02-15 18:31:29 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
bp920091 wrote:

CCP themselves admitted at the first fanfest that titans and supercarriers were never meant to be cost effective. Paraphrasing, since i cant find the exact quote "Titans and Supers were never meant to be cost effective, they are a giant ****."

Which, if you think about it, is actually a good point.

Lets say that supercarriers are 3x as effective as carriers. An alliance with a large amount of supercarriers effectively proves that it has the isk and will to ignore cost efficiency, and go for far more "Blinged out" tools, that are not nearly as effective.


If you take any number of supercarriers, and bring their isk value in dreads (even not considering insurance) , the supercarriers are going to get trashed in a one sided dunkfest. Supercarriers are already nowhere near efficient in that regard. At 10 dreads per supercarrier (more like 20-25 after insurance) an equal isk fleet of dreads would smear a supercarrier fleet in short order. Even if you only brought say three dreads per super, the future of that super fleet is looking extremely unpleasant.

You can lose a dozen suicide dreads for each supercarrier kill, and still come out on top economically. And even a fleet of X-type fit perfect skill Aeons with a damnation booster can only rep roughly one t2 fit budget dreadnaughts worth of damage for every other Aeon. And that means they need to have removed all their Drone Damage Amps, giving each Aeon a dps of only around 5600, roughly 60-65% of a single dread. And that's DPS that can be quickly defanged by any half competent squad of bombers.

Bring 100 dreads vs 100 Aeons and the dreads will get trashed. Bring 200 dreads ( A fleet worth only 20% of the Aeon fleet, and 10% after insurance) vs 100 Aeons, and the Aeons are going to get smeared.

So let's dispense with the "Supercarriers are economically efficient pwnmobiles" line of garbage.

You want either heavy nerfs to supercarriers, or heavy boosts to dreads, because your enemies have them and you don't like how it allows them to fight you outnumbered, so you pontificate on the "Fact" that they are horribly overpowered, and attempt to get people to agree that they need to be nerfed. You want to bring the same number of pilots, in smaller, massively cheaper insurable ships, and apparently be able to kill 30% of the enemy fleet because "boo hoo they are too stronk CCP nerf so I can kill them with mean looks".

I don't expect a man 100 Atron fleet to fight a 100 man Caracals and kill 30 of them before dying, why should dreads magically be able to do it to supers?

I assume you also support nerfing gankers so that only bringing 1.6 billion ISK in catalysts should be able to kill a 1,6billion ISK freighter?

price is not a balancing factor, CCP has stated that multiple times
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#28 - 2015-02-15 18:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

I assume you also support nerfing gankers so that only bringing 1.6 billion ISK in catalysts should be able to kill a 1,6billion ISK freighter?

price is not a balancing factor, CCP has stated that multiple times


No, I care nothing about freighter ganking. Many catalysts can work together to kill a freighter many times their own value. You trade needing more pilots for the ability to use smaller ships to rapidly kill larger ships. Similarly, many capital sized dreads can work together to quickly kill supercapitals many times their own value, even only bringing a fraction of the supercaps value in ships, as long as they outnumber their enemies appropriately.

That is a balance. Saying that bringing 100 dreads vs 100 supercarriers should result in at least 50 dead supers before the dreads die though is not balance. That just whining cause you don't feel you should have to bring more people or ships in the same weight class in order to trash your enemies.

CCP has stated that price is not a balancing factor, but that does not mean that all ships perform at a similar level regardless of size, production requirements or skill requirements. Handwaving and saying "price is not a balance factor" ignores the fact that the OP is comparing two ships in different size classes and asking the smaller one to behave with parity to the larger one.
Kabark
Schilden
#29 - 2015-02-15 20:51:47 UTC
Here is my 2 cents on the OP. I can and have perma tanked a single Nyx in my Phoenix while it was only T2 fit. Speaking from the side of the most powerful active tanked ship in the game, I don't think that Moms are way OP but on the flip side it would take me over 2 hours to hammer a Mom which is a little unreasonable in my opinion. That's like a cruiser taking 30 minutes to pop a battleship. I do agree that Dreads do need a firepower increase due to their stand alone design. Not just in T2 weapons but a firepower buff across the board. XL and citadel sized weapons should have a slight buff to tracking, explosion rad/vel, and damage. Add T2 ammo with the same bonuses as smaller ones ie; 75% reduction to tracking and 50% buff to damage. That would make dreads more useful against supers.
Zekora Rally
U2EZ
#30 - 2015-02-15 23:49:57 UTC
From an outsider's point of view, the current state of titans is far less than ideal and the nerfing of damage from titans to sub caps is absolutely horrendous game design. A sieged dread with the support of 3 Lokis - web and TP fit can blap armor T3s and support battleships off the field. This happens every other day in wormhole space. Titans with far less dps would simply be incapable of matching such fire power granted they won't need as much support in the first place.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#31 - 2015-02-15 23:57:17 UTC
You had me at moros using void. Cool

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Lienzo
Amanuensis
#32 - 2015-02-16 00:02:12 UTC
The best way to buff titans would be to add an effect to doomsday that reduced incoming remote repair by a very large percentage for a few minutes.

This would make life uncomfortable for blobs and largely has no additional effect on an anchored capital ship.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#33 - 2015-02-16 00:03:57 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
The best way to buff titans would be to add an effect to doomsday that reduced incoming remote repair by a very large percentage for a few minutes.

This would make life uncomfortable for blobs and largely has no additional effect on an anchored capital ship.


You mean titans may have a use outside of sure wins?
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#34 - 2015-02-16 01:19:17 UTC
So long as it used charges made of moon mins instead of bot-o-topes, then I really don't mind.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#35 - 2015-02-16 05:24:27 UTC
T2 Guns / Missles for Caps.
T2 ammo for caps.

New weapon systems for Caps.

New (many more) Capital Hulls.

Invalid target mechanic applied to smaller sub caps.

kthnx.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#36 - 2015-02-16 05:26:08 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
bp920091 wrote:

CCP themselves admitted at the first fanfest that titans and supercarriers were never meant to be cost effective. Paraphrasing, since i cant find the exact quote "Titans and Supers were never meant to be cost effective, they are a giant ****."

Which, if you think about it, is actually a good point.

Lets say that supercarriers are 3x as effective as carriers. An alliance with a large amount of supercarriers effectively proves that it has the isk and will to ignore cost efficiency, and go for far more "Blinged out" tools, that are not nearly as effective.


If you take any number of supercarriers, and bring their isk value in dreads (even not considering insurance) , the supercarriers are going to get trashed in a one sided dunkfest. Supercarriers are already nowhere near efficient in that regard. At 10 dreads per supercarrier (more like 20-25 after insurance) an equal isk fleet of dreads would smear a supercarrier fleet in short order. Even if you only brought say three dreads per super, the future of that super fleet is looking extremely unpleasant.

You can lose a dozen suicide dreads for each supercarrier kill, and still come out on top economically. And even a fleet of X-type fit perfect skill Aeons with a damnation booster can only rep roughly one t2 fit budget dreadnaughts worth of damage for every other Aeon. And that means they need to have removed all their Drone Damage Amps, giving each Aeon a dps of only around 5600, roughly 60-65% of a single dread. And that's DPS that can be quickly defanged by any half competent squad of bombers.

Bring 100 dreads vs 100 Aeons and the dreads will get trashed. Bring 200 dreads ( A fleet worth only 20% of the Aeon fleet, and 10% after insurance) vs 100 Aeons, and the Aeons are going to get smeared.

So let's dispense with the "Supercarriers are economically efficient pwnmobiles" line of garbage.

You want either heavy nerfs to supercarriers, or heavy boosts to dreads, because your enemies have them and you don't like how it allows them to fight you outnumbered, so you pontificate on the "Fact" that they are horribly overpowered, and attempt to get people to agree that they need to be nerfed. You want to bring the same number of pilots, in smaller, massively cheaper insurable ships, and apparently be able to kill 30% of the enemy fleet because "boo hoo they are too stronk CCP nerf so I can kill them with mean looks".

I don't expect a man 100 Atron fleet to fight a 100 man Caracals and kill 30 of them before dying, why should dreads magically be able to do it to supers?

I assume you also support nerfing gankers so that only bringing 1.6 billion ISK in catalysts should be able to kill a 1,6billion ISK freighter?

price is not a balancing factor, CCP has stated that multiple times


And I"m hoping for the day they realised they done goofed and make an Incarna styled u-turn on that front.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-02-16 07:59:17 UTC
bp920091 wrote:
Frankly, there's not much a group can do vs a massive horde of slowcats and supers, and an easy way around this (restoring balance to the game), would be to give dreads t2 guns, so they can use either long range, or close range ammo.

Dreads, because of their inherent weakness of not being able to recieve ANY remote reps while in siege, should ALWAYS have a damage bonus over any other ship.

Either Nerf Supercarrier dps (bring it pre-dominion), or give Dreads T2 guns.

Fact is, dreads are balanced... for 2004-2005.

The shear damage that comes from today's fleets makes dreads "Glass Cannons" who if they are targeted by a big fleet, nearly instantly die.

Giving them a damage bonus, so that they can out damage other ships that CAN receive Remote Rep bonuses is something that needs to happen to give a balance to the game.

If there is a 100 dread vs 100 supercarrier fight, i expect to see at least 30-50 supercarrier kills before the dread fleet dies, not one or two, anything else simply reinforces the big empires (they may move slower, but once they arrive, what they do is the key).


I would rather see a new capital counter ship e.g. a focused damage bombs, a second bombing ship.

T2 Capitalguns would be okay for me but your oppinion that 100 dreads should be able to destroy 30-50 supers in a normal combat i can´t share. Yes supers/titans should never be the best ship but that doesn´t mean that every player who´s pissed because he can´t buy one should be able to destroy it easily.

-1
Anthar Thebess
#38 - 2015-02-16 14:34:38 UTC
Anhenka wrote:


They work fine in Tidi. They don't work fine in soul crushing lag like HED-GP, but that's quite a bit further past 10% tidi. Nothing worked well there except titan DD's, and that because DD's are far less hampered by module lag than anything else in the game, due to their one shot nature and log cycle timers.

TLDR: Ships not performing well in soul crushing lag is not a reason to buff something. Nothing performs well there.



Just to clarify.
Dreads don't work versus slowcat fleet / wrecking ball, as it is very easy to create this kind of lag on not reinforced node.
So usually most of the times when fights are happening.

In all recent engagements we had tons of sentry drones dropped and abandoned by carrier fleet , even without it 2 thousand drones firing makes TIDI go to 10% easily , and this of course is only enemy fleet.

So again Dreads vs carriers simply don't work.

I had issue to shut down my siege when there where only 2 fleet of Ishtar's on field (yep it died).
Reinforce some towers dreads + isthars. .
In 2 out of 10 occasions some dreads entered additional siege cycle , one guy had to eject stront as it was not able to shut down this module.

Dreads are just to vulnerable , and balanced at the same time only because they need to be in Siege.

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