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Eve is sick and getting sicker

Author
Aditu Ibuki
The Consciencious Ursine Noviate
#1 - 2015-02-14 19:06:53 UTC
Hello I started playing EVE back in 2004 and have returned to playing after a break of 4-5 years.
I must confess to find playing EVE an increasing depressing experience.

The activities of players exploiting other players seems to have increased over time to where it now seems to be most prevalent thing going on in game. It always as aspect of the game but now seems totally dominant, promoting nothing but paranoia vengeance and viciousness mirroring the worst of RL.

The game only remains visually wonderfully, CCP please think about balancing content and practical gameplay to those of us who do want to play computer games just to be vindictive to other players.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#2 - 2015-02-14 22:24:26 UTC
Aditu Ibuki wrote:
The activities of players exploiting other players seems to have increased over time to where it now seems to be most prevalent thing going on in game. It always as aspect of the game but now seems totally dominant, promoting nothing but paranoia vengeance and viciousness mirroring the worst of RL.

The game only remains visually wonderfully, CCP please think about balancing content and practical gameplay to those of us who do want to play computer games just to be vindictive to other players.

I am not exactly sure what you define as "exploiting" other players or what type of game you think Eve Online is.

Eve is a competitive PvP sandbox set is a war-torn futuristic dystopia where we the players fight for power, space and resources. The game is specifically designed to foster conflict between the players everywhere in New Eden.

That said, playing Eve is not suppose to be a grim experience - you can have a lot of fun shooting you enemies (and friends too) in the face. See the latest from Permaband for this sentiment in musical form.

Embrace the chaos and strife and the challenge it provides, or if you absolutely can't, then perhaps consider that this game isn't for you.
Aditu Ibuki
The Consciencious Ursine Noviate
#3 - 2015-02-14 23:29:19 UTC
I have played this game since 2004, I do not enjoy killing other players and when I started to play it was not an exclusive PvP game. Has it now officially changed so if I do not want to PvP I am in the wrong game?
Aditu Ibuki
The Consciencious Ursine Noviate
#4 - 2015-02-14 23:49:30 UTC
This what CCP says EVE is currently:



What is EVE Online?



EVE Online is a massively multiplayer online game set 23,000 years in the future. As an elite spaceship pilot, you will explore, build, and dominate across a universe of over 7,000 star systems. Sandbox gameplay and advanced skill-based progression provide you with a truly unique experience as you rise to power among the stars.


The possibilities are endless in EVE Online:
Takes sides in factional warfare. Join an alliance and wage epic battles for sovereignty over star systems. Discover wormholes leading to unknown regions of space. Uncover pirate outposts and lucrative resources hidden in the far reaches of the cosmos.




It implies PvP exists it doesn't say its the main focus or obligatory
Is this actually false information and PVP is the main and only respected activity in the game?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5 - 2015-02-15 00:10:49 UTC
Aditu Ibuki wrote:
I have played this game since 2004, I do not enjoy killing other players and when I started to play it was not an exclusive PvP game.


Yes, it was.



Quote:
Has it now officially changed so if I do not want to PvP I am in the wrong game?


You always were.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#6 - 2015-02-15 00:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Aditu Ibuki wrote:
I have played this game since 2004, I do not enjoy killing other players and when I started to play it was not an exclusive PvP game. Has it now officially changed so if I do not want to PvP I am in the wrong game?

I started playing back in 2009... and the vets that took me in and trained me have been playing since the game began.

From the stories they have told me... it has always been this way. The differences between then and now are...

- more people are playing... meaning more people are experiencing the same kinds of "conflict" that people did back in the "old days" (and by extension, talking/yelling about it).

- more people are playing... meaning there are more people causing "conflict."

- more people are playing... and there is less "empty space" (especially in high-sec) where people can just hide and avoid contact with others (which is a good thing, because it breeds more conflict***).

- (in my opinion) many people who have been recently joining the game seem to have a MUCH lower tolerance towards gameplay revolving around "conflict" and "interference."


As far as avoiding ship-on-ship PvP is concerned...

It IS possible... hell, there are still people who have been playing for years and only recently have had their self-contained "bubble" of gameplay interfered with... who then come wailing on the forums about it.


Some of the tricks to do this are...

- understanding the aggression mechanics of the game. There are a surprising amount of people who don't understand docking games, remote repairs, and NOT to shoot at a ninja looter in a PvE ship.

- understanding how PvPers and other "undesirable people" think and operate. What better way to avoid getting blown up or have stuff stolen from you than to understand/experience how these people perform their trade?
NOTE: this whole point can be best summed up with this phrase; "Make yourself a more undesirable target compared to the guy next to you."

- being prepared. PvPers are not "superhuman" players with access to ships, modules, tactics, and mechanics that no one else does. Every tool, tactic, and mechanic they use to their advantage can be used against them or to avoid them outright.



*** NOTE: EVE is special in that its in-game economic health (and by extension, the health of the non-combat aspects of the game) are dependent on conflict and destruction (just the same way that conflict and destruction are dependent on the non-combat aspects of the game).

Less things destroyed... less ISK and minerals are spent and/or trade hands... because there is less demand for replacements... which causes deflation of product prices... which means less profits... which means there is less incentive to harvest, build, haul, and/or trade.
Every ship that blows up is more cash in the pockets of miners, industrialists, haulers, and traders... and if that ship happens to be a competitor for said miner/industrialist/hauler/trader... that means greater profits.

Welcome to the machine that is EVE... the ultimate "rat race."
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#7 - 2015-02-15 03:08:03 UTC
If EVE is getting sicker, maybe we should send it to a doctor?

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Black Pedro
Mine.
#8 - 2015-02-15 09:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Aditu Ibuki wrote:
This what CCP says EVE is currently:



What is EVE Online?



EVE Online is a massively multiplayer online game set 23,000 years in the future. As an elite spaceship pilot, you will explore, build, and dominate across a universe of over 7,000 star systems. Sandbox gameplay and advanced skill-based progression provide you with a truly unique experience as you rise to power among the stars.


The possibilities are endless in EVE Online:
Takes sides in factional warfare. Join an alliance and wage epic battles for sovereignty over star systems. Discover wormholes leading to unknown regions of space. Uncover pirate outposts and lucrative resources hidden in the far reaches of the cosmos.




It implies PvP exists it doesn't say its the main focus or obligatory
Is this actually false information and PVP is the main and only respected activity in the game?


Actually they do explicitly say that PvP is central to the game. From the New Pilot FAQ:

Quote:
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be
completely avoided. The safest systems are the ‘rookie systems’ where new
players start their journey in EVE. In high-sec systems, you are less likely
to be attacked since CONCORD will exact retribution on pilots who attack
another pilot without good reason. But, for example, if you are flying a ship
with a high value cargo, a player may attack you to destroy the ship and steal
anything from the wreck if they think that it’s worth the effort. Such attacks
are known as ‘ganking’ and if the profit they’ll make is sufficient, pilots are
willing to accept the expense of losing their ship to CONCORD and having
their security status lowered for their crimes. So it will be up to a pilot to remain
vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time.


There are ways to do (almost) only PvE in this game, but there are always done against the backdrop of competitive PvP sandbox. If you really only want to mine and build stuff, you can but you will have to arrange for protection with some PvP players as part of an larger organization. If you forgo your defense, but do not find someone else to protect you, you will be an easy target for larger, more aggressive groups.

However missioning in highsec is pretty isolated from the sandbox in that there is much inbuilt protection from unwanted aggression, so by following a few rules you are unlikely to be affected much by others in the sandbox.

Eve is not sick or getting sicker - it was born this way. There are other space games out there that will allow you to play without interacting or being affected by others. Eve's sandbox is however quite unique and means that pretty much everything you do is in competition with other players - the ore you mine devalues my ore, when the module you undercut me on the market sells, that is ISK that I don't get, and so on. This, and the real risk of losing your assets, provides much meaning and excitement to your game play that isn't present in other, themepark MMOs. It may not be everyone's cup of tea however.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#9 - 2015-02-15 17:19:56 UTC
I've played since may 2004 and it's always been a PvP game. (Not this char)

You either didn't truly play, stayed in some back water system and did nothing but mine, or your memory is wrong.
When I started there were far less online at any one time, so the former is likely.

Eve is PvP centric. Almost every aspect of the game, revolves around competition and conflict. As more players have joined, it's merely gone to highlight that more.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Iain Cariaba
#10 - 2015-02-15 19:33:18 UTC
I really think your 4-5 year break has skewed your memories as to how this game was played. You rememberd all the fun times you had, but seemingly forgot all the bad times that came with them.
Drachen Protectorate
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#11 - 2015-02-17 08:25:12 UTC
The only thing I can clearly recall changing from 2007 to now is that currently, getting into Null-sec is far far easier than it was back then.
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-02-18 19:56:11 UTC
if you say it enough

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three

Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#13 - 2015-02-19 10:04:00 UTC
I'm in about 5% agreement with the OP.

Eve is becoming increasingly polarized between the carebears and the pirates. Once upon a time, corps typically had a mix of pvp-focused players and industry-focused players who would work together for each other's benefit. Hauler's had escorts, mining ops had security, and lowsec industrial POSs had defenders. Now this is rarely found outside of nulsec (where it's a practical necessity). But in empire space these two groups have little reason to work together. The industrialists are focused on ISK/hour and have no desire to build anything other than to sell on the market. The PvPers want to pad their killboards and have no interest in sitting around, guarding a bunch of shiny mining ships, when they could just as easily gank said ships and get their killmails that way. I'm not saying that it's completely gone from empire space; but it is in decline. Things are drifting towards creators-vs-destroyers.

People play EVE for different reasons. Many are driven by the primal desire to clash and match wits with other human beings. They love the thrill of combat and the adrenalin rush that comes with risking and fighting over things of value and consequence. Others are driven by the primal desire to make things. They love turning barren rocks floating in space into beautiful functional spaceships, and wish to bring civilization to where there is none. I am of the second type. I heard about the massive fleet battles involving thousands of players and the vast, complex player driven economy behind it. But what really sparked my interest was the backstory about humanity reaching out through the stars, through a wormhole to a distant region of space, to where there was nothing by emptiness and asteroids and, not only having to make due, but thriving. I understand and respect the other type of gameplay, and would quite happily build you ships and weapons to further it, but it's not for me (I prefer to have my PvP of the FPS variety). When I got into EVE I was a bit disappointed to find that everything that needed to be explored, discovered, researched, invented, and built has already been explored, discovered, researched, invented, and built. This is no Minecraft in space. But that's a rant for another post.

When you think of what makes EVE great you probably think of the legendary battles between player empires in nulsec. These are what make headlines and gaming history. But what's important to the current discussion is that they build any fly their own fleets of capital (and sub-capital) ships and destroy them in the great melees that make the New Eden economy go round. The key point here is that it's creator/destroyer-vs-creator/destroyer. This is the defining characteristic of a healthy New Eden.

Creators-vs-destoryers sucks for everyone. It sucks for the carebears of obvious reasons. And while it may initially be fun for the pirates, it cause their victims to cry and scream until CCP starts rolling out nerf after nerf to highsec PvP. Not good. What needs to happen is for CCP to nudge these groups towards cooperation with each other for mutual benefit.

I honestly don't know how to make that happen. But I think a good place to start would be recognize the defining quality of a healthy EVE Online alliance: that members, as a whole, create and destroy in approximately equal amounts. Groups that mostly do one or the other are not healthy. Most Individuals are biased strongly in one direction or the other, as would most subsidiary corporations of alliances; and that's fine. But the group of players who have agreed to generally not shoot one another, be it alliance or large independent corp, should be balanced.
Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#14 - 2015-02-19 10:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Colette Kassia
[Split post. Damn character limit.]

I think the first step in promoting this is for the server to keep a running tally of all that each player creates and destroys. The creation side would consists of the sum total ISK value of what they mine, pull from moon and planets, loot from NPC wrecks, purchase from LP stores, salvage, and the delta-$$$ for any material conversion they do (ore refining, manufacturing, reprocessing, etc). The destruction side would consists of the hulls blown up, fittings and cargo that don't survive, and anything they trash. There are other minor factors, but they are insignificant compared to the major ones. The data from all players within an alliance (or independent corp) would then be aggregated and shown in their alliance information as graphical indicator. I imagine two colored bars, blue and red, stretching from the opposite sides of the window and meeting somewhere in the middle. The ratio of blue to red would indicate the balance between creation to destruction that members of the alliance have engaged in. Data for individual characters or subsidiarity corps may be shown privatively, but shouldn't appear publicly as it would only distract from what is important. There might also be a historical graph that shows this balance as a function of time. Imagine a saw-tooth graph which shows a gradual trend toward the Creation side and then a sharp swing towards the Destruction side, representing a huge battle and a lot of stuff getting blown up.

The next step would be social. It should be recognized that alliances with a good balance are healthy and should be looked upon positively. Alliances (or independent corps) which show mostly blue with a tiny bit of red (principally carebears) and those which show mostly red with a tiny bit of blue (principally pirates) should be looked down upon equally. This would hopefully create a desire for highly unbalanced alliances to recruit and assimilate players and smaller corporations of the type needed to bring balance. Once that starts happening then perhaps we'll see more carebears building stuff directly for PvPers, rather for their own profit, and more PvPers assisting carebears in their endeavors. (Yes, there are and always have been groups that do this, most commonly in nul and WH space. But, sadly, it's only small percentage of all players.)

Creators-vs-destoryers is EVE at its worse. Creator/destroyer-vs-creator/destroyer is EVE at its best.

(Sorry for the long rambling post, barely on topic. But lately I've been thinking something similar to what the OP asserts (that highsec is disfunctional and lowsec is a wasteland of fear and loathing) and have been thinking about how it could be fixed.)
Lord Parallax
Dolphin Noises
#15 - 2015-02-19 15:23:00 UTC



"Eve is a competitive PvP sandbox set is a war-torn futuristic dystopia where we the players fight for power, space and resources. The game is specifically designed to foster conflict between the players everywhere in New Eden."
That exert is exactly what they are referring to. There isn't a lot of war-torn futuristic dystopia anymore. I have lived everywhere in this game for the last 2+ years bouncing here and there trying to find that same love of the game I had when I started playing so long ago.


The majority of gameplay I encounter on a day to day basis is not war-torn content, it's scammers trying to steal your isk through the same tired old scams being spammed over and over every 30 seconds day in day out. A stale and uneventful high sec, and nullsec where everyone just mines, missions or rats and docks up when their shiny ship is in danger.
Sure there are always tidi fleets to protect player space, but not everyone enjoys sitting in a 30% lag for 5+ hours defending a timer.

I understand eve has a challenge in every aspect, but to allow the scammers and spammers to run rampant is too much. I detest the trade hubs and I always close my chat boxes when I have no choice but to go there, why? b/c there is nothing of value to read there, everything linked is a scam or someone bitching about being scammed. I mean hell its gotten so far out of hand people are now using their bio to carry their scam everywhere they go, and it even comes equipped with a fake link to their "wallet".

"Play my game follow the rules and you win, click here for api verified wallet transactions" but I found those websites and they are designed to falsify the wallet so it will show isk returns when there are none.
Athanor Ruthoern
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-02-19 15:31:17 UTC
I think the solution here is to join a community with the same interrestest and moralte codexs as you. YOU cna then help and teach each other avoiding unwanted content.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#17 - 2015-02-19 17:29:50 UTC
Lord Parallax wrote:
That exert is exactly what they are referring to. There isn't a lot of war-torn futuristic dystopia anymore. I have lived everywhere in this game for the last 2+ years bouncing here and there trying to find that same love of the game I had when I started playing so long ago.

No, the OP was referring to the ubiquitous existence of PvP as a "sickness" in Eve. Eve has always been a place where everyone is competing with everyone (it's even in the name, Everyone vs. Everyone!) and that is the same today as it was 11 years ago.

Now, if you want to claim that Eve has some issues with stagnation and malaise, I will not disagree with you. However, in my estimation this is not because there is too much player conflict in Eve - it is the exact opposite. A combination of highsec being too lucrative and too safe has drawn many players back to earn an income in near total safety, as well as a lack of compelling sovereignty mechanics to keep players fighting in nullsec has caused there to be a lack of meaningful conflict. Just a bunch of veterans grinding ISK in highsec incursion and then randomly roaming around outside of highsec looking for consensual and meaningless fights with one another.

Lord Parallax wrote:
The majority of gameplay I encounter on a day to day basis is not war-torn content, it's scammers trying to steal your isk through the same tired old scams being spammed over and over every 30 seconds day in day out. A stale and uneventful high sec, and nullsec where everyone just mines, missions or rats and docks up when their shiny ship is in danger.
Sure there are always tidi fleets to protect player space, but not everyone enjoys sitting in a 30% lag for 5+ hours defending a timer.
Scams are part of the "dystopia" but easily ignored/avoided if that isn't your thing. Highsec is too safe to be really interesting as there is no real advantage to joining a corporation and defending it from a wardec, and nullsec has its own issues.

I agree that Eve definitely has some problems, but too much player conflict isn't one of them.
Cora Namoor
Anson Astrometrics And Assembly
#18 - 2015-02-20 04:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cora Namoor
If we are throwing out ideas of how to fix it.... How about allow Corps to make custom items? Take all the items in the game and allow player corps to pick so many bpo's or bpc's and they can make upgraded versions of them like a 4x. Takes so many ppl, research outposts, and a huge supply chain of materials to keep the research going. PvP players want better weapons and ships but they need ppl with research skills and industry skills to keep them supplied and the research bonuses coming. Not much in the way of graphics required. Instead of Tech II icons put the corp icon there. The more people reseaching the more stats can be changed. Conflicts have more meaning since you could lose months of research if a specific pos goes down. You can always replace a lost bpo or bpc now, but not reseach on the cutting edge. Call it.... Invention! And call Invention... Tech II Refits. Should require a lot of busy work: Data core running from your corp HQ to your research stations and back, Various scavenger hunt style weekly missions for research bonuses, Prototype testing, Hiring and Management of non-capsuleer staff, Running missions for specific npc corps or factions for access to their research.

This would shake a lot of things up. The market would skew to who ever was doing the most research in each field. Some corps might limit their tech to corpmates only and use it as a draw for recruiting. Supplies would be limited since only one corp is producing the item for all of New Eden. Allow for Reverse engineering to steal research from data cube transfers, research outposts, or prototypes, and consequences for the corp who lost them. So many options for what amount to 1-3 variable changes to ships or ship equipment. If an alliance has enough hulls in its member corps maybe a custom alliance ship like a pirate faction. Takes large networks of active accounts and the skills in the required reseach fields. If your the small guys, try to find areas ppl aren't selling on the market and fill that niche... the progress won't be as fast but you could always reverse engineer to speed your progress. Makes for targeted wardecs where people wanna steal your research or hurt your market dominance.

Just a few ideas that seem like they could bring the 2 sides of EVE together.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#19 - 2015-02-20 06:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Cora Namoor wrote:
Just a few ideas that seem like they could bring the 2 sides of EVE together.

The "dirty little secret" of most PvPers is that they already have a "miner/indy/trader/hauler guy."

Sometimes this person is an alt of the PvPer... sometimes it is an actual person. Either way... what separates these characters from their miner/indy/trader/hauler peers is that they...

- are willing to accept risk as it comes (even if it means lower profits).
- talk, communicate, and work out deals with the PvPers they are supplying.
- understand that no matter how powerful his/her PvP friends are, "safety" can not be guaranteed. So it is up to that character to take preventative action and/or stay within "we're coming to save you" distance from friends and allies.
- (continuing from the last point) understand that in order to take preventative actions they have to know how PvPers operate and what mechanics they typically use. This usually requires the miner/indy/trader/hauler to PvP a little bit (much the same way a "pure" PvPer has to take a crash course in economics and industry to buy/sell stuff on the market).


The rub is that there are more than a few miners/industrialists/traders/haulers that do not want to adapt in this fashion because it "interferes" with the way they want to play... which usually does not include PvP in any way, shape, or form... which is silly because they are affecting PvPers in their own way and literally asking to not be affected back.

The current issue is mainly based on perception and principle... not actual mechanics.
Reeses Peices
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-02-20 18:09:42 UTC
Colette Kassia wrote:
[Split post. Damn character limit.]

I think the first step in promoting this is for the server to keep a running tally of all that each player creates and destroys. The creation side would consists of the sum total ISK value of what they mine, pull from moon and planets, loot from NPC wrecks, purchase from LP stores, salvage, and the delta-$$$ for any material conversion they do (ore refining, manufacturing, reprocessing, etc). The destruction side would consists of the hulls blown up, fittings and cargo that don't survive, and anything they trash. There are other minor factors, but they are insignificant compared to the major ones. The data from all players within an alliance (or independent corp) would then be aggregated and shown in their alliance information as graphical indicator. I imagine two colored bars, blue and red, stretching from the opposite sides of the window and meeting somewhere in the middle. The ratio of blue to red would indicate the balance between creation to destruction that members of the alliance have engaged in. Data for individual characters or subsidiarity corps may be shown privatively, but shouldn't appear publicly as it would only distract from what is important. There might also be a historical graph that shows this balance as a function of time. Imagine a saw-tooth graph which shows a gradual trend toward the Creation side and then a sharp swing towards the Destruction side, representing a huge battle and a lot of stuff getting blown up.

The next step would be social. It should be recognized that alliances with a good balance are healthy and should be looked upon positively. Alliances (or independent corps) which show mostly blue with a tiny bit of red (principally carebears) and those which show mostly red with a tiny bit of blue (principally pirates) should be looked down upon equally. This would hopefully create a desire for highly unbalanced alliances to recruit and assimilate players and smaller corporations of the type needed to bring balance. Once that starts happening then perhaps we'll see more carebears building stuff directly for PvPers, rather for their own profit, and more PvPers assisting carebears in their endeavors. (Yes, there are and always have been groups that do this, most commonly in nul and WH space. But, sadly, it's only small percentage of all players.)

Creators-vs-destoryers is EVE at its worse. Creator/destroyer-vs-creator/destroyer is EVE at its best.

(Sorry for the long rambling post, barely on topic. But lately I've been thinking something similar to what the OP asserts (that highsec is disfunctional and lowsec is a wasteland of fear and loathing) and have been thinking about how it could be fixed.)



Well written, that is the shift that has left highsec in this state. Very few mixed focus corporations remain in Highsec. Most of these groups either moved to nullsec or were destroyed from within by awox groups. I do not believe that the anti awox button will fix this. Some of the better strategies to awox are not through shooting corp mates, but through misleading and misinformation. Then leading groups to their destruction against a larger force. I feel that corporation play is completely unnecessary and redundant in empire space.
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