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Nerfs, and the coming of the second shard

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2015-02-15 21:14:13 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Judging by the fact that people keep relentlessly ganking with minimal consequences...I'd say more nerfs are needed. Until the gankers are doing cost/benefit analysis and targeting loot filled ships instead of empty ones, the system is broken.


I and others have demonstrate for you a very long time ago, repeatedly, a wide range of reasons for ganking empty freighters, not just profits, so if you're going to wilfully ignore those reasons, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#522 - 2015-02-15 21:34:23 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Judging by the fact that people keep relentlessly ganking with minimal consequences...I'd say more nerfs are needed. Until the gankers are doing cost/benefit analysis and targeting loot filled ships instead of empty ones, the system is broken.


Judging by the fact that low and null are empty...I'd say that more buffs are needed. Until the gankers actually have content outside of Hi Sec, the system is broken.

Maybe that was a little smarmy, but you can't blame antagonists for focusing on Hi Sec, so long as it has the monopoly on player base. Similarly, you cant blame that player base for staying in Hi Sec so long as it maintains its stifling monopoly on accessible income.

Hi Sec will never, ever, be fixed until there is actual risk/reward balance between it and other security sectors.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#523 - 2015-02-15 22:15:46 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Judging by the fact that people keep relentlessly ganking with minimal consequences...I'd say more nerfs are needed. Until the gankers are doing cost/benefit analysis and targeting loot filled ships instead of empty ones, the system is broken.


Judging by the fact that low and null are empty...I'd say that more buffs are needed. Until the gankers actually have content outside of Hi Sec, the system is broken.

Maybe that was a little smarmy, but you can't blame antagonists for focusing on Hi Sec, so long as it has the monopoly on player base. Similarly, you cant blame that player base for staying in Hi Sec so long as it maintains its stifling monopoly on accessible income.

Hi Sec will never, ever, be fixed until there is actual risk/reward balance between it and other security sectors.


Oh dear...highsec has a "stifling monopoly on accessible income." I must have missed the Level 5 missions, the 10/10 DED sites, the AFK carrier ratting, the c5/c6 wormhole escalations. It's crazy how you just make so much more isk in highsec than in other areas of space. Roll

The gankers are in highsec because they want tears. You don't get tears in low/null/wormholes. Blowing up the poor sod in his retriever or venture isn't about isk...it's about making helpless people angry. It's about forcing combat on people who specifically choose to live in highsec, even at the cost of isk/hour, so they can have a measure of safety and law enforcement protection. We don't need more ways for the Goons, et al., to ruin the fun of highsec players, we need to make it harder for the gankers to blow things up in highsec, so that they go after the folks who willingly subject themselves to CONCORD free combat by operating in low/null.
Marsha Mallow
#524 - 2015-02-15 22:20:55 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
You don't get tears in low/null/wormholes.

Shocked

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#525 - 2015-02-15 22:21:02 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Oh dear...highsec has a "stifling monopoly on accessible income." I must have missed the Level 5 missions, the 10/10 DED sites, the AFK carrier ratting, the c5/c6 wormhole escalations. It's crazy how you just make so much more isk in highsec than in other areas of space. Roll

The gankers are in highsec because they want tears. You don't get tears in low/null/wormholes. Blowing up the poor sod in his retriever or venture isn't about isk...it's about making helpless people angry. It's about forcing combat on people who specifically choose to live in highsec, even at the cost of isk/hour, so they can have a measure of safety and law enforcement protection. We don't need more ways for the Goons, et al., to ruin the fun of highsec players, we need to make it harder for the gankers to blow things up in highsec, so that they go after the folks who willingly subject themselves to CONCORD free combat by operating in low/null.

While I agree with you on the income front, I don't agree that we need to directly stifle ganking.

Industrial ships need to have real fitting options similar to other ships in their class, and yes, that does mean that Freighters could be used as smart bomb traps in Low Sec for example. If they have the same slot lay out as a Carrier does.
And it will mean some changes to their base stats. And it does mean that Cargo hold extenders should have a stacking penalty, they are the only percentage based module I know that doesn't, and the lack of stacking penalty is part of what contributes to the problem.

However Low/Null/WH space also need some changes to increase possible density of population. Currently it's hard for more than a few people to live and make an income off a single system, this needs to change to allow a lot more density without mission running in all area's of space (including high sec people who make a living without missions). If a higher density is possible, then safety in numbers starts taking effect, as there are more than 2 or 3 people in a system to respond to a roaming gang, if there are instead 30 people actually out in space, and another 30 docked doing some admin/fitting work or just idling in a single system in a random null sec system, things are very different when a roaming gang comes through.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#526 - 2015-02-15 22:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Veers Belvar wrote:


Oh dear...highsec has a "stifling monopoly on accessible income." I must have missed the Level 5 missions, the 10/10 DED sites, the AFK carrier ratting, the c5/c6 wormhole escalations. It's crazy how you just make so much more isk in highsec than in other areas of space. Roll



We can get the same amount of isk running level 3 mission in highsec as we can make in anoms in the best trusec, fully upgraded system using ratting carriers. And the best part is that unlike anoms, there is no limit to the number of people who can run level 3 missions in a system all while providing near perfect safety for zero effort.
Serene Repose
#527 - 2015-02-15 22:36:00 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Judging by the fact that people keep relentlessly ganking with minimal consequences...I'd say more nerfs are needed. Until the gankers are doing cost/benefit analysis and targeting loot filled ships instead of empty ones, the system is broken.


I and others have demonstrate for you a very long time ago, repeatedly, a wide range of reasons for ganking empty freighters, not just profits, so if you're going to wilfully ignore those reasons, you haven't got a leg to stand on.
Yeah, I remember...to satisfy some psychological disturbance....yeah, right... Shocked

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#528 - 2015-02-15 22:43:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Oh dear...highsec has a "stifling monopoly on accessible income." I must have missed the Level 5 missions, the 10/10 DED sites, the AFK carrier ratting, the c5/c6 wormhole escalations. It's crazy how you just make so much more isk in highsec than in other areas of space. Roll



We can get the same amount of isk running level 3 mission in highsec as we can make in anoms in the best trusec, fully upgraded system using ratting carriers. And the best part is that unlike anoms, there is no limit to the number of people who can run level 3 missions in a system all while providing near perfect safety for zero effort.


I must have missed the scores of goons who are now running L3s on alts. In fact, considering the apparent massive income advantage of highsec PvE it's kind of shocking to find so many nullsec ratters, miners, etc...someone should go tell them how much more isk they could be making in highsec than in nullsec.....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#529 - 2015-02-15 22:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Veers Belvar wrote:


I must have missed the scores of goons who are now running L3s on alts.


That would be because alts don't have goon tags and high sec also has even better income from level 4 missions and incursions.

Veers Belvar wrote:

In fact, considering the apparent massive income advantage of highsec PvE it's kind of shocking to find so many nullsec ratters, miners, etc


The vast bulk of our space is empty.

Veers Belvar wrote:

...someone should go tell them how much more isk they could be making in highsec than in nullsec.....


We do.
Marsha Mallow
#530 - 2015-02-15 23:06:47 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
In fact, considering the apparent massive income advantage of highsec PvE it's kind of shocking to find so many nullsec ratters, miners, etc...someone should go tell them how much more isk they could be making in highsec than in nullsec.....

You seem to be skipping the key word Vic used, here, I'll highlight it for you
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Similarly, you cant blame that player base for staying in Hi Sec so long as it maintains its stifling monopoly on accessible income.

Hi Sec will never, ever, be fixed until there is actual risk/reward balance between it and other security sectors.

You don't undock in null and warp to an anom or plex that will toss out 100m per hour indefinitely. There's significant competition for high end sites, they're spread out, and you either have to travel through hostile areas or deal with people passing through. It's a lot of effort, and there are interruptions - including being asked to defend the space.

You can pump out ridiculous amounts of ISK in highsec with little or no interruption, which is why people keep alts there to farm. Which makes the whole concept of owning space a joke for the line members.

The beatings will only intensify until we get what we want, which is a full revamp of the risk-reward balance. Once that's done we'll just gank you for the screeching.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#531 - 2015-02-15 23:20:35 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
In fact, considering the apparent massive income advantage of highsec PvE it's kind of shocking to find so many nullsec ratters, miners, etc...someone should go tell them how much more isk they could be making in highsec than in nullsec.....

You seem to be skipping the key word Vic used, here, I'll highlight it for you
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Similarly, you cant blame that player base for staying in Hi Sec so long as it maintains its stifling monopoly on accessible income.

Hi Sec will never, ever, be fixed until there is actual risk/reward balance between it and other security sectors.

You don't undock in null and warp to an anom or plex that will toss out 100m per hour indefinitely. There's significant competition for high end sites, they're spread out, and you either have to travel through hostile areas or deal with people passing through. It's a lot of effort, and there are interruptions - including being asked to defend the space.

You can pump out ridiculous amounts of ISK in highsec with little or no interruption, which is why people keep alts there to farm. Which makes the whole concept of owning space a joke for the line members.

The beatings will only intensify until we get what we want, which is a full revamp of the risk-reward balance. Once that's done we'll just gank you for the screeching.


Oh...lol...that is a great one. You can multibox afk rat and mine in nullsec to your hearts content. And it seems like the goons are experts at that. http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2015/02/january-ratting-data.html

You can pump out isk running L5s, anoms, rattingg, etc..... And that's where the isk/hour min maxers hang out.

What you want is complete dominance of the game by nullsec powerblocs. What you want is for everyone who wants to make decent isk to be forced to join one of your cartel alliances. And that you will never get. And no amount of ganking, whining, etc... will ever change that.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#532 - 2015-02-15 23:35:13 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Oh dear...highsec has a "stifling monopoly on accessible income." I must have missed the Level 5 missions, the 10/10 DED sites, the AFK carrier ratting, the c5/c6 wormhole escalations. It's crazy how you just make so much more isk in highsec than in other areas of space. Roll

The gankers are in highsec because they want tears. You don't get tears in low/null/wormholes. Blowing up the poor sod in his retriever or venture isn't about isk...it's about making helpless people angry. It's about forcing combat on people who specifically choose to live in highsec, even at the cost of isk/hour, so they can have a measure of safety and law enforcement protection. We don't need more ways for the Goons, et al., to ruin the fun of highsec players, we need to make it harder for the gankers to blow things up in highsec, so that they go after the folks who willingly subject themselves to CONCORD free combat by operating in low/null.


Wormhole space, as far as my ignorance lets me believe, is closer to balanced than the rest of the game - you can make or lose it all in a heartbeat. Good.

DED sites are, for a lack of a better word, dead, or at least not what they were. The loot tables are so small and the market so hyper-saturated, in conjunction with high end pirate battleships having a tepid market, that they are almost certainly no longer great income. This is a shame as it spurred lots of explorers and content. If you look at the time required to find and run them, its no longer all that good. Every other good poster here has covered the rest of the income streams vs. what Hi Sec provides.

It bears repeating - Hi Sec will never, ever, be fixed until there is actual risk/reward balance between it and other security sectors. Antagonists have no where else to be.

Veers Belvar wrote:
What you want is complete dominance of the game by nullsec powerblocs. What you want is for everyone who wants to make decent isk to be forced to join one of your cartel alliances. And that you will never get. And no amount of ganking, whining, etc... will ever change that.


Absolutely false. The seed of conflict is planted when you make sov-space worth taking for the line members. As it is, it is not, so taking space is unattractive. Nothing would please me more than seeing nullsec living up to its potential, and the map lighting up people trying to grab space.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Major Xadi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#533 - 2015-02-15 23:48:54 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Yeah, I remember...to satisfy some psychological disturbance....yeah, right... Shocked



No, that's why people come to GD to post/reply/troll
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#534 - 2015-02-15 23:50:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


Oh...lol...that is a great one. You can multibox afk rat and mine in nullsec to your hearts content. And it seems like the goons are experts at that. http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2015/02/january-ratting-data.html

You can pump out isk running L5s, anoms, rattingg, etc..... And that's where the isk/hour min maxers hang out.

What you want is complete dominance of the game by nullsec powerblocs. What you want is for everyone who wants to make decent isk to be forced to join one of your cartel alliances. And that you will never get. And no amount of ganking, whining, etc... will ever change that.


Shock horror, you get your info from the biggest grr goon conspiracy theorist in the game.

Truth is, sov null sucks balls for the line members. High sec offers better isk with much more safety and far less effort.
Marsha Mallow
#535 - 2015-02-15 23:53:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Oh...lol...that is a great one. You can multibox afk rat and mine in nullsec to your hearts content. And it seems like the goons are experts at that. http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2015/02/january-ratting-data.html

Gevlon is only a credible source if you think about the evil fatty goons when you touch yourself at night.
Veers Belvar wrote:
You can pump out isk running L5s, anoms, rattingg, etc..... And that's where the isk/hour min maxers hang out.

'Min/maxers' is not an appropriate phrase here. Seriously, go wash your mouth out. Most of the dedicated ISK whores are either in WHs or playing the market at a high level. The mouthy farmers in nullsec are just as despised as any other type of farmer, and are unsurprisingly murdered around the time they get their first super.
Veers Belvar wrote:
What you want is complete dominance of the game by nullsec powerblocs.

Highsec impacts the rest of the game in an extraordinarily unbalanced way given the pitiful amount of effort and attention required. If anything, it's your economic dominance and entitlement being challenged.
Veers Belvar wrote:
What you want is for everyone who wants to make decent isk to be forced to join one of your cartel alliances. And that you will never get. And no amount of ganking, whining, etc... will ever change that.

Sounds like fighting talk to me. You're already halfway there. My cartel is in lowsec btw, and ehm... you're probably not welcome.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#536 - 2015-02-16 00:48:20 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Oh...lol...that is a great one. You can multibox afk rat and mine in nullsec to your hearts content. And it seems like the goons are experts at that. http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2015/02/january-ratting-data.html

Gevlon is only a credible source if you think about the evil fatty goons when you touch yourself at night.
Veers Belvar wrote:
You can pump out isk running L5s, anoms, rattingg, etc..... And that's where the isk/hour min maxers hang out.

'Min/maxers' is not an appropriate phrase here. Seriously, go wash your mouth out. Most of the dedicated ISK whores are either in WHs or playing the market at a high level. The mouthy farmers in nullsec are just as despised as any other type of farmer, and are unsurprisingly murdered around the time they get their first super.
Veers Belvar wrote:
What you want is complete dominance of the game by nullsec powerblocs.

Highsec impacts the rest of the game in an extraordinarily unbalanced way given the pitiful amount of effort and attention required. If anything, it's your economic dominance and entitlement being challenged.
Veers Belvar wrote:
What you want is for everyone who wants to make decent isk to be forced to join one of your cartel alliances. And that you will never get. And no amount of ganking, whining, etc... will ever change that.

Sounds like fighting talk to me. You're already halfway there. My cartel is in lowsec btw, and ehm... you're probably not welcome.



Grrr Gevlon is not a credible argument. If you have evidence to refute his data, please present them. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.

Grrr PvE players is also kind of lame. Please.

Grrr highsec. That you dislike highsec is your own problem. It's a key part of the game...and you lack the power to change that. It was not designed to be a training ground for low/null, it was designed to be an integral part of the game with solid isk making opportunities.

Please try to ruin highsec PvE for us...if James 315, 600 billion isk, and a whole bunch of nullsec alts could do basically nothing, you will excuse me for not being overly concerned by the likes of you.

As for not being welcome to your little group....I would not want to join highway. I am much more happy in a lucrative, welcoming, and entertaining highsec, far away from the nasty types who hang out in low/null. No thanks, not now, not ever. Highsec for life.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2015-02-16 00:53:11 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I am much more happy in a lucrative, welcoming, and entertaining highsec, far away from the nasty types who hang out in low/null. No thanks, not now, not ever. Highsec for life.


Translation: highsec isn't risky enough.

Thanks for clarifying that for us, Veers.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#538 - 2015-02-16 00:57:03 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I am much more happy in a lucrative, welcoming, and entertaining highsec, far away from the nasty types who hang out in low/null. No thanks, not now, not ever. Highsec for life.


Translation: highsec isn't risky enough.

Thanks for clarifying that for us, Veers.


Translation: highsec wasn't meant to be risky, it was meant to be fun. It was meant for people who want to do collaborative PvE, and avoid PvP combat. Different strokes for different folks. If you want a nerfed to heck highsec full of noobs and no one else....try a different game, because Eve it sure ain't.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#539 - 2015-02-16 00:57:48 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I am much more happy in a lucrative, welcoming, and entertaining highsec, far away from the nasty types who hang out in low/null. No thanks, not now, not ever. Highsec for life.


That you for demonstrating exactly why highsec must be nerfed. It outweighs literally every other area of space.

You have been most helpful, Agent Veers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#540 - 2015-02-16 01:00:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I am much more happy in a lucrative, welcoming, and entertaining highsec, far away from the nasty types who hang out in low/null. No thanks, not now, not ever. Highsec for life.


That you for demonstrating exactly why highsec must be nerfed. It outweighs literally every other area of space.

You have been most helpful, Agent Veers.


Not true at all...wormholes, low, and null are all more lucrative on an isk/hour basis. Highsec offers more collaboration, more cooperation, and less anger & rage. It's a place for people who want to be constructive rather than destructive, and who want to help others rather than hurt them. No wonder 80% of the playerbase lives there rather than in the Eve version of Somalia.