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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1521 - 2015-06-09 13:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mayhaw Morgan
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players


So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage.

Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike?
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1522 - 2015-06-09 14:43:11 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

Instead of saying that, why not just make the reasonable assumption that people do PVE in EVE, an MMORPG, for the same reason they do it in any other MMORPG? Or, if you have evidence to the contrary that is leading you to a different conclusion, share it with us so you don't sound so obtuse.

The question though, is what is that "same reason"?

- Is it because it is the part of the game they want to play?
- Is it because thats how you make isk/gold/donuts within that game and players like accumulating isk/gold/donuts?
- Is it because the game leads you to it, and humans being simple animals, tend to do what they are lead to do?

Scipio's arguement is to me, that we can't automatically assume it is the first reason. For some people it will be, but the other reasons are at least likely to equal that in the number of people who gravitate in to mission running for that reason (and other reasons I've not considered).

If there is some retention problem here (and we are agreed there is), we need to consider all the possibilities, and how to address those problems, not just put on the blinkers and focus on our personal prejudice.

- How do we make that part of the game more fun and rewarding for those who want to participate in it?
- How do we make isk/gold/donut accumulation more fun and rewarding for those who value their wallet/bank/donut-box balance?
- How do we ensure new players can easily get in to the part of the game they will find most enjoyment (and not be railroaded in to something that they do not)?

You might think its silly, but the third problem does happen. I joined for piracy, crime, and murder, and quit after three months of mission running. It took coming back nearly half a year later "with a plan" to get in to the side of the game I wanted to see, because first time round, I couldn't see the mayhem wood for the carefully-ordered wall of mission-trees. And of newbies I've tutored in to the game, nearly every one had to be peeled out of a mission-running dead-end because thats where the game funnelled them despite a variety of completely different goals they had when they first stepped in to the game. Hilariously, the only newbie I've tutored who didn't need that help is someone who had never played a single MMO before (barring a week of him frustrating my housemate by "not getting" WoW, and continually running off into places he "couldn't go"), and him I found running couriers contracts across Lowsec in a Destroyer, merrily exclaiming "its like being Han Solo".
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1523 - 2015-06-09 14:47:36 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players


So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage.

Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike?


A sure sign of knowing you argument fails is the act of 'over-broadening'. Playing smart (by having different clone sets, using alts etc) isn't nearly the same as a veteran inhabiting an NPC corp. Those other things come at a steep cost (alts tend to have fewer skill points, training time decreases if you use a PVP clone instead of a +5 implant high sec clone and so on). Being in an NPC corp comes at negligible cost (a few extra percentage points on tax that doesn't tax mining or loyalty points).

NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.

If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1524 - 2015-06-09 15:23:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.
Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1525 - 2015-06-09 16:13:24 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.
Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec?


You mean the 2 guys (that just came back to the game last week) and their alts that left to form a wormhole corp 2 days before we got War Decced by marmite (our 1st war dec ever). I guess we all trained be psychic to 5 at some point lol.

The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1526 - 2015-06-09 18:08:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.


Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1527 - 2015-06-09 18:15:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.

On the subject of risk and reward... if you believe that NPC corp players have too little risk of being shot at due to wardec immunity, how do you feel about station traders who have zero risk of being shot due to never needing to undock? Would a "rational gameplay situation" be something like allowing trades to be placed only when a pilot is undocked in an uncloaked ship, so that they can be shot at while making their ISK?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1528 - 2015-06-09 18:26:12 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.


Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.



So you literally asking "why aren't you hiding in an npc corp in a video game that allows you to form your own groups"? Because we don't need to, because our name means something to us and no amount of someone war deccing us is going to scare us away from that. And because we run incursions and ninja rat in SOV space when we aren't decced and paying npc tax when you don't need to is stupid when trying to make isk for other fun ventures.

Not everyone is a min/maxer, and some of us won't want/need to be coddled by video game mechanics in an open world mmo. What you said is the exact same thing as saying "If Ishtars are so unbalanced, why not just fly nothing but Ishtars".
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1529 - 2015-06-09 18:31:44 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.

On the subject of risk and reward... if you believe that NPC corp players have too little risk of being shot at due to wardec immunity, how do you feel about station traders who have zero risk of being shot due to never needing to undock? Would a "rational gameplay situation" be something like allowing trades to be placed only when a pilot is undocked in an uncloaked ship, so that they can be shot at while making their ISK?


Station Traders don't make isk. Not in the EVE sense of the phrase.

And station trading comes with it's own risk of loss (being underbid by others to the point where you take a loss for example). Station Trading is always brought up as a dodge by people claiming that there is no problem (whether it's the incredibly skewed Combat PVE risk/reward imbalance or the inherent wrongness of Veterans exploiting NPC corps), but it's just a weak deflection, station trading has nothing to do with anything.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1530 - 2015-06-09 18:40:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.
Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec?
You mean the 2 guys (that just came back to the game last week) and their alts that left to form a wormhole corp 2 days before we got War Decced by marmite (our 1st war dec ever). I guess we all trained be psychic to 5 at some point lol.

The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
But the war started on the 4th, and all those members left on the 5th and 6th. You don't need to be psychic to predict the past. Seems like quite a coincidence that they all wanted to form a new corp just as a wardec rolled in.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1531 - 2015-06-09 18:53:25 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

Instead of saying that, why not just make the reasonable assumption that people do PVE in EVE, an MMORPG, for the same reason they do it in any other MMORPG? Or, if you have evidence to the contrary that is leading you to a different conclusion, share it with us so you don't sound so obtuse.

The question though, is what is that "same reason"?

- Is it because it is the part of the game they want to play?
- Is it because thats how you make isk/gold/donuts within that game and players like accumulating isk/gold/donuts?
- Is it because the game leads you to it, and humans being simple animals, tend to do what they are lead to do?

Scipio's arguement is to me, that we can't automatically assume it is the first reason. For some people it will be, but the other reasons are at least likely to equal that in the number of people who gravitate in to mission running for that reason (and other reasons I've not considered).

If there is some retention problem here (and we are agreed there is), we need to consider all the possibilities, and how to address those problems, not just put on the blinkers and focus on our personal prejudice.

- How do we make that part of the game more fun and rewarding for those who want to participate in it?
- How do we make isk/gold/donut accumulation more fun and rewarding for those who value their wallet/bank/donut-box balance?
- How do we ensure new players can easily get in to the part of the game they will find most enjoyment (and not be railroaded in to something that they do not)?

You might think its silly, but the third problem does happen. I joined for piracy, crime, and murder, and quit after three months of mission running. It took coming back nearly half a year later "with a plan" to get in to the side of the game I wanted to see, because first time round, I couldn't see the mayhem wood for the carefully-ordered wall of mission-trees. And of newbies I've tutored in to the game, nearly every one had to be peeled out of a mission-running dead-end because thats where the game funnelled them despite a variety of completely different goals they had when they first stepped in to the game. Hilariously, the only newbie I've tutored who didn't need that help is someone who had never played a single MMO before (barring a week of him frustrating my housemate by "not getting" WoW, and continually running off into places he "couldn't go"), and him I found running couriers contracts across Lowsec in a Destroyer, merrily exclaiming "its like being Han Solo".

It could be all those reasons. Why not let CCP decide as they have all the data, and authority to make changes. Hell if CCP would add a poll to the forums, you could ask the players directly and get an idea about things that way. It is better to be objective in these cases.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1532 - 2015-06-09 18:54:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players


So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage.

Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike?


A sure sign of knowing you argument fails is the act of 'over-broadening'. Playing smart (by having different clone sets, using alts etc) isn't nearly the same as a veteran inhabiting an NPC corp. Those other things come at a steep cost (alts tend to have fewer skill points, training time decreases if you use a PVP clone instead of a +5 implant high sec clone and so on). Being in an NPC corp comes at negligible cost (a few extra percentage points on tax that doesn't tax mining or loyalty points).

NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.

If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.


I love it when somebody throws around the term risk aversion as if it is a derogatory term, then turns right around and proclaims their own risk averse behavior as "playing smart". Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1533 - 2015-06-09 19:00:38 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players


So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage.

Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike?


A sure sign of knowing you argument fails is the act of 'over-broadening'. Playing smart (by having different clone sets, using alts etc) isn't nearly the same as a veteran inhabiting an NPC corp. Those other things come at a steep cost (alts tend to have fewer skill points, training time decreases if you use a PVP clone instead of a +5 implant high sec clone and so on). Being in an NPC corp comes at negligible cost (a few extra percentage points on tax that doesn't tax mining or loyalty points).

NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.

If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.


I love it when somebody throws around the term risk aversion as if it is a derogatory term, then turns right around and proclaims their own risk averse behavior as "playing smart". Lol



The 2 are different things. No on says "go out there and Kamikaze", reasonable measures to protect your assets are reasonable measures. Nothing wrong with that.

It's when those measures (both mechanical and player created) are too good that they start having unintended consequences, such as rich veteran players hiding in NPC corps while amassing even more in game wealth in high sec. There should be a cost associated with such a move (such as the taxing methods I mentioned beofre, or something like "membership in a factions NPC corp makes you KOS with that factions enemy).

Funny thing is, if those kinds of costs did exist, I wouldn't have been so eager to make my own, because succeeding in an npc corp against such costs would be challenging and non-lame............................................................... gameplay.

Sorry for that pause there, I was dodging high sec war dec killmail whores while typing... Because it's not hard.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1534 - 2015-06-09 19:02:31 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.


Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.


Agreed. Fun fact though, Jenn is a shameless multiboxer. Those three in the corp are alternate accounts or alts probably. Heck the characters that left to WH corps are probably alt accounts.
Xaneth
P47
#1535 - 2015-06-09 19:03:31 UTC
Everything that makes isk in Eve has some sort of risk involved. I would say that the fact that many players are staying in NPC corps actually validates the Eve Universe principles. People want to safeguard their assets in RL. The fact that players see the in game assets of Eve as assets to be preserved is a victory for the CCP game strategy.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1536 - 2015-06-09 19:08:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.
Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec?
You mean the 2 guys (that just came back to the game last week) and their alts that left to form a wormhole corp 2 days before we got War Decced by marmite (our 1st war dec ever). I guess we all trained be psychic to 5 at some point lol.

The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
But the war started on the 4th, and all those members left on the 5th and 6th. You don't need to be psychic to predict the past. Seems like quite a coincidence that they all wanted to form a new corp just as a wardec rolled in.


Believe what you like. I'm not in control of what others do (no matter the reason, but i've explained this one to you), those 2 just came back and wanted to do something different, even though they left were still R/L friends we will be wormhole daytripping this week (with their own corp they control their own POSs).

But you notice I'm still in my own war decced corp right? Look I get it, you're still..stung over me getting too close to the truth about you. That's fine, but rather than nitpicking me about the actions of other players who aren't me, you might want to work on your inability to recognize and embrace difficult truths.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1537 - 2015-06-09 19:11:47 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.


Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.


Agreed. Fun fact though, Jenn is a shameless multiboxer. Those three in the corp are alternate accounts or alts probably. Heck the characters that left to WH corps are probably alt accounts.


And the problem with multiboxing in a game that allows multiboxing (as long as you don't automate it) is what exactly?

Oh i get it, you're one of those proud "I'm awesome because I play a video game with one account" bigots I see. Well lol, you got me there, I feel dirty, I'ma go wash my self off...in a bath of isk i made using FoF missile ravens that aren't against the rules.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1538 - 2015-06-09 19:15:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So you literally asking "why aren't you hiding in an npc corp in a video game that allows you to form your own groups"? Because we don't need to, because our name means something to us and no amount of someone war deccing us is going to scare us away from that. And because we run incursions and ninja rat in SOV space when we aren't decced and paying npc tax when you don't need to is stupid when trying to make isk for other fun ventures.

Not everyone is a min/maxer, and some of us won't want/need to be coddled by video game mechanics in an open world mmo. What you said is the exact same thing as saying "If Ishtars are so unbalanced, why not just fly nothing but Ishtars".

Indeed, I am literally asking you that question, and thank you for answering. Interestingly, your answer closely parallels what mine would be if I were asked "Why aren't you in a player corp in a video game that allows you to socialize in so many different ways?" Because I don't need to, because my corp name means something (CAS has been specifically mentioned in this thread numerous times so I hope you understand why that is without me going in to it further,) and because I live in nullsec where wardecs are never thought about. I too am not a min/maxer, and don't want/need to be coddled by 0% corp taxes.

(And "why not fly Ishtars" is a perfectly legit question to ask somebody IMO, and for all sorts of reason people do and don't fly them regardless of the current fleet meta.)
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1539 - 2015-06-09 19:19:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Xaneth wrote:
Everything that makes isk in Eve has some sort of risk involved. I would say that the fact that many players are staying in NPC corps actually validates the Eve Universe principles. People want to safeguard their assets in RL. The fact that players see the in game assets of Eve as assets to be preserved is a victory for the CCP game strategy.

There is no problem if you want to stay in an NPC because you are risk-averse. You should be able to tune your risk level in the game. But if you want to play with a large amount of safety you should get only a small amount of reward. Conversely, if you accept a large amount of risk, you should be rewarded for that choice - or explode in a glorious fireball.

The problem with NPC vs. player corps currently is that this risk vs. reward balance is near non-existent. Veterans can make almost the same amount of ISK in a NPC corp, or the same amount if they are willing to shed a wardec by dropping corp and reforming, as they can in a player corp. This is inherently broken as it provides no incentive to take risks in this game and offer yourself up as a target.

This lack of respect for risk vs. reward is the most fundamental design problem with Eve these days and is a serious contributor to the general malaise that seems to be gripping New Eden. Players have little reason to join player corps, take and defend sov, or otherwise do something meaningful. Given the choice, players prefer to make their ISK in near 100% safety in highsec doing industry or incursions/mission neutering the conflict that is the lifeblood of this game. More and more it is just consensual and meaningless roams that seem to be the only fights left in New Eden and this is because players everywhere are too safe and have little incentive to take risks.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1540 - 2015-06-09 19:20:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.


Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.


Agreed. Fun fact though, Jenn is a shameless multiboxer. Those three in the corp are alternate accounts or alts probably. Heck the characters that left to WH corps are probably alt accounts.


And the problem with multiboxing in a game that allows multiboxing (as long as you don't automate it) is what exactly?

Oh i get it, you're one of those proud "I'm awesome because I play a video game with one account" bigots I see. Well lol, you got me there, I feel dirty, I'ma go wash my self off...in a bath of isk i made using FoF missile ravens that aren't against the rules.

Never said it was against the rules, but all you arguments in this thread are hypocritical by the fact that you created a corp full of alts.

Its like a kid who decided to stay in his room an play with puppets instead of going outside to meet real friends. Then, when a lonely kid comes around he says: "I'm cooler than you because I associate with puppets rather than real kids. Go outside and make friends lonely kid!."

TL;DR: Your statements are hypocritical!