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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Valkin Mordirc
#581 - 2015-03-20 06:16:36 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:


You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.

They may feel like they matter, like they are important, the bait and feed is important in fishing, the truth is, the medium who carried them over SP wall could operate exactly the same without them (save maybe the fact that new characters make more attractive baits) just as successfully. This brings us to the point - you feel like you participated, like your contribution matters, but the fact is, with or without you, the "fleet" would still operate the same, with nearly the same success rate. So, your weight is net zero, your contribution is net zero, you matter nothing for a "fleet", unless you contribute meaningfully to the SP blob of it, which newbros cannot do.

They are only good as the bait and no amount of wordplay will change that.


You know after reading everything you blather on about. All I can really say is,


Thank god CCP isn't like you.
#DeleteTheWeak
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2015-03-20 06:18:57 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Niobe Song wrote:
Considering the HUGE difference in damage players do to NPC ships vs. the damage that players do to each other (or was it damage that the NPC's do to players?) that CCP Quant showed during the keynote I would say there are a lot of people who are ratting or doing missions either because they enjoy that play style or because they need the income to be able to pursue their other interests. I'm not sure making NPC corps susceptible to war decs is going to have any sort of positive effect on player retention.

Sure Eve is a PvP game. But there is an awful lot of PvE going on.



PVE in EVE happens yes, I don't think anyone here has a problem with PVE. Whats your point? That hence EVE has PVE it's not just a PVP game?

EVE is a PVP game at its core, containing elements of PVE.

I think PVE as a way for PVP to happen via ISK and Mod drops.



My point is that there are probably a bunch of people that are not interested in actively seeking out PvP and are content to just do level 4 missions day in and day out. They are suspect to ganks, but forcing them into a situation where they will have to deal with wardecs, even in the NPC corp that have been safe since the start of Eve, may drive them away.

You don't care? EVE is better off without them? That's nice. But I am sure that CCP's wallet does not agree with you.

"WAAAAAHHH!! That isn't fair." OK. Maybe it isn't. But can you come up with an argument better than one a 6 year old would use? Because grownups know that life isn't fair and you just have to get over it.

Watching CCP Quant's presentation (at about the 6 hour mark on today's stream) it turns out that players do an average of 385 million damage a day to other players. Verse NPC's the number is 4.11 billion. In the same presentation the number of people whose focus is PvP was the smallest group compared to those who are well rounded, those who focus on industry, and those who just do missions. Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens.
Valkin Mordirc
#583 - 2015-03-20 06:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Quote:
Watching CCP Quant's presentation (at about the 6 hour mark on today's stream) it turns out that players do an average of 385 million damage a day to other players. Verse NPC's the number is 4.11 billion. In the same presentation the number of people whose focus is PvP was the smallest group compared to those who are well rounded, those who focus on industry, and those who just do missions. Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens.


I haven't been able to watch the show yet, but I've seen the graph and yeah. Lots of damage on NPC ships. But you do realize how easy it is to kill an NPC ship and how much damage you do in a single mission? The numbers are interesting, but it hardly proves your point, as in one lvl 4 Mission I can find like what 20 battle ships with liiike, what is it? 20k ehp for each one? Not including the small stuff that is thrown if with them.

Sooo yeah....what is your point?


EDIT: Also EVE doesn't need to be an MMO if like you say, "A PVP Game"


Could be single player for all it cared.


Guess what? It's not a single player game. Shocking I know.
#DeleteTheWeak
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#584 - 2015-03-20 08:19:33 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Personally, I'd make it a tax based on character age. Anyone older than ninety days(or whatever arbitrary timeframe CCP decides on) would receive a heavier tax rate than the rest.


Take it for what it's worth, but I consider that a form of trying to "force" players out of their NPC corp, despite retaining the ability to remain in said corp. Call my description a straw man argument if you like, but I'm stating my personal interpretation of the process.


No, that's how you keep people from abusing it as they do now, to dramatically increase their own safety.

The thing is, whichever way this comes down, it will be a net nerf. CCP has to make player corps worth having. And right now, player corps in highsec are worth nothing more than a chat channel, a corp hangar, and the dubious privilege of being able to setup poses. Meanwhile NPC corps have everything else plus immune to wardecs.

Something has to give, and it's going to be safety or profitability, or both.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#585 - 2015-03-20 08:29:33 UTC
Niobe Song wrote:
Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens.


That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict.

Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Juno Rook
Doomheim
#586 - 2015-03-20 08:47:40 UTC
Why not approach this from a different angle.

From what I can gather, the problem at its most basic level is that there are fewer targets to pew pew at because new players are staying in npc corps.

So you have players living in null and low sec who want more people to venture out into the vast territory they live in. These players want more interaction so that more pvp happens. The fix is so easy it's laughable.

Simply cut the amount of null and low sec space in half so that players are compressed into smaller spaces. Tons more interaction with a huge potential for pvp. Just imagine all those pissed off pilots crammed into a tiny space. All looking to take out some retribution for loosing all that juicy sov space.

Some of you might not find my solution funny but if you ask for solutions loudly and often enough you might just get one.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#587 - 2015-03-20 08:53:05 UTC
Juno Rook wrote:
Why not approach this from a different angle.

From what I can gather, the problem at its most basic level is that there are fewer targets to pew pew at because new players are staying in npc corps.

So you have players living in null and low sec who want more people to venture out into the vast territory they live in. These players want more interaction so that more pvp happens. The fix is so easy it's laughable.

Simply cut the amount of null and low sec space in half so that players are compressed into smaller spaces. Tons more interaction with a huge potential for pvp. Just imagine all those pissed off pilots crammed into a tiny space. All looking to take out some retribution for loosing all that juicy sov space.

Some of you might not find my solution funny but if you ask for solutions loudly and often enough you might just get one.




You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#588 - 2015-03-20 08:59:00 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.

Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth.

None of which really has much to do with the topic.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#589 - 2015-03-20 09:01:40 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.

How does someone reach such a poor opinion of other people?

I'm not even trying to be funny. How can a guy you don't even know, be judged as useless.

It's kind of sad really to see; and totally opposite to my experience in this game.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#590 - 2015-03-20 09:03:17 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.

Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth.

None of which really has much to do with the topic.



There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers.

Are we getting on topic now?

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Valkin Mordirc
#591 - 2015-03-20 09:08:20 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.

Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth.

None of which really has much to do with the topic.



There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers.

Are we getting on topic now?


Not even close.

Though something tells me you have no idea on either subject.


Also yes l33t hisex merc corps only stay in hisex
#DeleteTheWeak
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#592 - 2015-03-20 09:10:04 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers.

Are we getting on topic now?

I've never heard of that myth. No. Totally at odds with what I see every day.

As for topic, still no. Way off topic.

Maybe we can get back to it though.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#593 - 2015-03-20 09:12:31 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.

Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth.

None of which really has much to do with the topic.



There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers.

Are we getting on topic now?


Not even close.

Though something tells me you have no idea on either subject.


Also yes l33t hisex merc corps only stay in hisex




The topic is why do players stay in npc corps.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Thora Zhubilai
Bluenose Corporation
#594 - 2015-03-20 09:42:16 UTC
change whatever you want ... players retention will probably NOT improve.

To force them into player corp will just push them to leave quicker.

Hi all!
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#595 - 2015-03-20 09:47:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Niobe Song wrote:
Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens.


That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict.

Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product.


Or if you want more player conflict you can move out of high sec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#596 - 2015-03-20 10:06:53 UTC
Niobe Song wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Niobe Song wrote:
Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens.


That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict.

Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product.


Or if you want more player conflict you can move out of high sec.


No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#597 - 2015-03-20 10:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Thora Zhubilai wrote:
change whatever you want ... players retention will probably NOT improve.

To force them into player corp will just push them to leave quicker.

Or not. CCP after looking at all the data seems to think that it will increase player retention. Well, perhaps not force, but much of their current strategy seems to be along the lines of building-in "strong encouragement" to get players, especially new ones, into vibrant player-run corporations where they are more likely to engage fully with the sandbox and stay in the game.

There will always be NPC corps for new players, players between corps, casuals and the truly risk-averse. But expect them to become less comfortable (and less lucrative) places to live relative to player corps over the coming years. This POS release and the coming corporation revamp are just the first steps towards this.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Thora Zhubilai
Bluenose Corporation
#598 - 2015-03-20 10:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Thora Zhubilai
[url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5504176#post550422]
The real truth is that most gamers don't have the stomach or patience for EVE so they quit and go play something more (instant gratification) 'fun'. [/quote]


That's the real point!
Never you go reach 50'000, 100'000 or 200'000 players on server. (would be nice, but is just a dream)

The game is to harsh...or peoples to soft (haha)

Hi all!
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#599 - 2015-03-20 11:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.

How does someone reach such a poor opinion of other people?

I'm not even trying to be funny. How can a guy you don't even know, be judged as useless.

It's kind of sad really to see; and totally opposite to my experience in this game.


He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall".
To make matters worse, "SP wall" grows every year, so if you're not gaining SP, you may also become useless, even if you weren't before. It also ensures that if you gain SP slower than the next guy, you will stay useless and locked out of combat pvp (edge case scenarios aside, you will always reliably die to SP wall) forever.

That's the nature of that sandbox game called EVE. Combat pvp niche is occupied, you may become content or have better luck next game, sucks to be below 105 million SP.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#600 - 2015-03-20 11:21:18 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall".

No he isn't, just as I wasn't when I decided to begin pvp almost immediately after I joined the game.

But my question wasn't about him. It was about you and how you could get to a position to make judgments that others are useless, without even knowing those people.

It's just a sad situation that there could be such negative judgments in the absence of any experience or knowledge.

But nothing about the other guy. Good luck to him if he is having fun. If he is playing his game and getting out of it what he wants, the n your judgment is rendered pretty much meaningless.