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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Valkin Mordirc
#361 - 2015-03-16 04:58:30 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
As far as I can tell, there are two anti-NPC corp arguments here:

1) NPC corp players are not social, do not interact with other players, and leave the game eventually because they get bored.

#1 is completely untrue. I definitely know there's a lot of social activity within CAS, and it sounds like FNA and SAK has some too.

In conclusion, IMO there are still no good reasons to change NPC corps.

Did you even read the OP?

It's not about 'do not interact with other players', it's about CCPs own data showing that the retention of players who remain in NPC Corps is lower than players that join player run Corps; and a discussion around why players remain in NPC Corps.

So it can't be completely untrue since it's CCP that has drawn the conclusion and clearly the very good reason for players to move is to increase new player retention.


I bet that NPC corp players who are social do not quit EVE with any greater frequency than player-corp players who are social. Force the quitters into player corps somehow, and they'll still quit. Give them an incentive to move into a player corp, and they'll still quit.


What you bet doesn't matter. You probably right.

However, How many players are in an NPC corp Vs How many player are actually social in NPC corps?

And we don't mean Social as in talking to each other, thats a basic human need. We are talking about players going out and doing something.

For the 500 700 people in an NPC corp chat, how many of them are working together? Very little. They talk when they run Lvl4 missions, but they don't run mission together, they don't blitz lvl 5's.

THAT is why NPC corp player retention is so low. And is why NPC V Player Corp, NEED's to be fixed. 

#DeleteTheWeak
Eldhih
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#362 - 2015-03-16 05:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Eldhih
Prior to DNS, my experience of player corporations is negative. Went from so called pvp corp to pvp corp, that ended up soling faction war or hisec mining for x weeks. The problem from my point of view is accountability. Players need the ability to comment on a corp they leave to warn future would be recruits.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2015-03-16 05:22:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Who's to do the teaching if all the bittervets are busy farming them for stats?


Oh puh-leez.

Of all of the mid-high skillpoint players in highsec right now, I very much doubt than even 10% of them are in wardec corps. It's probably lower than that.


Quote:

I think some sort of tweak to the wardec system that disincentivizes deccing corps low in SP and assets would solve the problem.


And I think that CCP themselves have stated that non consensual PvP has no ramifications on player retention.

And that taking player freedom away to serve the purely theoretical purpose of "helping newbies" is disingenuous at best.

Quote:

It would be nice if the bittervets would make a conscious decision to challenge themselves instead of going after the easy targets, but risk-aversion is just as ingrained in their playstyle as it is in that of the "carebears."


And here you are mischaracterizing the motives of people you don't like.

If you hadn't yet figured this out, far more people do the former, than the latter. Ever heard of Eve University? RvB?



Your first point is unprovable speculation. I'd bet that if you looked into it most of the oldest, highest SP players in highsec have at least one toon in a wardec corp.

Nobody on this forum actually cares what CCP thinks except when it lines up with their desired playstyle, so may aswell stop tossing that around. Ultimately they're in it for the money which is why we see this persistently nonsensical situation where a sizeable percentage of the server population at any given time is alts. Now those would be some interesting numbers to have access to.

RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.

And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.

That you have a bunch of 100m SP toons sitting in highsec engaging in regular massacre of mining barges and mission boats is laughable. I don't see how I've misrepresented anyone - the highsec griefer community looks to me like players who don't want to have to work or take risks to get kills.

Why don't you want good fights Kaarous? This is the only game I've ever seen, all whining about how "hard and dark" it is aside, where veterans are able to just stomp newbies day in and day out with minimal effort.

Nobody with a brain is impressed by your 90% efficient killboard that shows nothing but blobbing and tech 1 fit mission ships.

I should join a merc corp. It's like faction warfare where the enemy only flies terribly fit PvE ships.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2015-03-16 05:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You've literally talked yourself into a corner.

People won't join player corps because highsec corps aren't worth it compared to NPC corps.

But.

If they nerf NPC corps to make player corps more attractive, you claim that will make people quit.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. You're trying to paint a picture whereby only nerfing wardecs, already one of the weakest mechanics in the game, is the only way forward, and that's just patently untrue.

No I haven't talked myself into a corner.
You are just so fixated on Nerfing NPC corps as a solution that you can't visualise anything else.

Wardecs are actually an exceptionally strong mechanic against a high sec corp that has a reason to exist. (though the cost mechanic should be related to deccing corp size, not target corp size, as the current cost mechanic allows large alliances to bully small ones in high sec while their highsec assets require massive isk expenditure to attack in turn)
So the solution is to create NEW gameplay which gives corps reason to exist. Not nerf existing things.
And do so in such a way that the goons can't just flood it.

Do I have an easy solution for this? Not at all, it's going to take some very careful game design to give highsec corps good reasons to stay together without making it worth/efficient for the null blocks just moving in and steamrolling them.


You hit on the root of the problem. Anything worth fighting for the blob will just park ontop of.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#365 - 2015-03-16 05:50:00 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Your first point is unprovable speculation.


... which I said specifically in response to your "all the bittervets are just farming noobs", which was an obvious lie. Don't make **** up, and then claim that anyone correcting your obvious lie is in the wrong.



Quote:

RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.


So the **** what? They have tons of fun doing that, why are you spitting at it? That's how newbies can be effective, or would you rather they just mine for the first year of playing the game?


Quote:

And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.


Oh, bullshit.

The new player help channel exists, and just about anyone you ask about it will point you towards one of those groups.


Quote:

Why don't you want good fights Kaarous?


Why should your definition of "good fight" be permitted to tie my hands? Or anyone else's? Why are you an emotional fascist, trying to force how you want to play the game on other people?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#366 - 2015-03-16 05:53:52 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


15M SP is nine months with +3 implants and a decent remap. Not exactly new. Just because a veteran carebear can die to a relatively new ninja salvager in an incursus proves nothing.

When it comes down to it, there's simply not much you can do to fight an entity that can blob you with vindis on station or undock a roaming fleet of proteus and guardians, all with near perfect skills, when you are limited to tech 1 cruisers. Undock 30 gank catalysts and a brick tanked t3 with logi support will still laugh at you. SP opens options as you said, like being able to fly ships that are simply better at dealing with a given situation. Being able to undock BS BC and tech 2/3 cruisers from every race, faction BS/BC, or fully skilled t2 logi with near perfect skills for fitting, support, weapons and drones is an undeniably huge advantage and most hisec mercs I've seen fit this description.

To say SP doesn't matter is moronic. In a pvp contest, all other things being equal, higher SP in relevant skills will win. Having yoir ship be 5-10% better in even a few categories is a huge advantage. Having more options in ships and fits to employ is a huge advantage. I don't see why this isn't obvious.



SP was a random number, Regardless.


Let me put this way.

Your out in your aweome 70+ Mill Toon. Your in Dodi. And you're flexxing your muscles with a Kronos. I'ts PVE fit but. Hey you can still tank a **** ton in Bastion.

Then you find some on yellow floating around station. He's only been playing for a year. And he's in a Harbinger/prophcey. So you shoot at him thinking you have an easy kill.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/45013722/

That you lose it. To a character who starting playing at the start of 2014.

That what I mean by SP doesn't matter.

SP opens doors for more options to counter with yeah. It's a big advantage. But it's nobody brings along Every ship wherever they go you know?

I have an alt out in lowsec that is 85mil SP. This character stays in Highsec and has 25mil sp. If My Alt and this Character went head to head. Both in Cruiser. Do you think the 85mil SP Alt would win? If you say yes, I would kindly say you are wrong
and possible right.

Valkin is spec into cruisers. Can fly every single one near perfect.
So can the alt.
So even though the alt is from 2011. And this one is from 2013. You don't really know who will win. 1v1.

Does that make more sense now?


100M SP wins. Just look at the other toon's KB, 25m isn't enough to skill into every racial t2/t3 cruiser and every weapon system to a competent degree, you should easily be able to work out a counter to his likely fit. Whereas the 100M toon can bring any race t3/t2 or faction to the fight with full skills in every related area. 100M has a huge advantage because he has a full range of options and is thus totally inpredictable in what he can undock.

I have 23M sp, if someone looks at my killboard they know I'm bringing a gallente cruiser or BS. That's critical knowledge and there's fuckall I can do about it.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2015-03-16 05:57:00 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
I bet that NPC corp players who are social do not quit EVE with any greater frequency than player-corp players who are social. Force the quitters into player corps somehow, and they'll still quit. Give them an incentive to move into a player corp, and they'll still quit.


What you bet doesn't matter. You probably right.

However, How many players are in an NPC corp Vs How many player are actually social in NPC corps?

And we don't mean Social as in talking to each other, thats a basic human need. We are talking about players going out and doing something.

For the 500 700 people in an NPC corp chat, how many of them are working together? Very little. They talk when they run Lvl4 missions, but they don't run mission together, they don't blitz lvl 5's.

THAT is why NPC corp player retention is so low. And is why NPC V Player Corp, NEED's to be fixed.



If these NPC players chat with but do not perform activities with other players of the same corp, it is because that's how they have chosen to play the game, not because they are unable to. Force or incent them into moving into player corps, and they still will chat with but will not perform activities with other players of the same corp - and in your theory will be just as likely to quit the game as if they were still in an NPC corp. CAS members, I know, get together to actually do stuff all the time.
Valkin Mordirc
#368 - 2015-03-16 05:59:04 UTC
Quote:
RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.



Neither RvB or EVE-Uni are 'White Knights'


EVE-Uni uses its new bros as F1 monkeys.

RvB uses it's members as a standing army so it can have a force to keep poco's.

If anything they are a neutral party providing a service with the expections that it's members pay them back in certain ways, IE RvB Purple fleets for Poco bashing.
#DeleteTheWeak
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2015-03-16 06:00:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Your first point is unprovable speculation.


... which I said specifically in response to your "all the bittervets are just farming noobs", which was an obvious lie. Don't make **** up, and then claim that anyone correcting your obvious lie is in the wrong.



Quote:

RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.


So the **** what? They have tons of fun doing that, why are you spitting at it? That's how newbies can be effective, or would you rather they just mine for the first year of playing the game?


Quote:

And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.


Oh, bullshit.

The new player help channel exists, and just about anyone you ask about it will point you towards one of those groups.


Quote:

Why don't you want good fights Kaarous?


Why should your definition of "good fight" be permitted to tie my hands? Or anyone else's? Why are you an emotional fascist, trying to force how you want to play the game on other people?




A good fight is one that involves an opponent who has the knowledge, experience and resources to be a challenge. Also known as "people highsec griefers don't shoot at if they can possibly avoid it."

How is shooting the clueless in badly fit t1 ships any different than shooting red crosses or rocks? I just don't understand why you think its such an important part of the game.
Valkin Mordirc
#370 - 2015-03-16 06:12:27 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
I bet that NPC corp players who are social do not quit EVE with any greater frequency than player-corp players who are social. Force the quitters into player corps somehow, and they'll still quit. Give them an incentive to move into a player corp, and they'll still quit.


What you bet doesn't matter. You probably right.

However, How many players are in an NPC corp Vs How many player are actually social in NPC corps?

And we don't mean Social as in talking to each other, thats a basic human need. We are talking about players going out and doing something.

For the 500 700 people in an NPC corp chat, how many of them are working together? Very little. They talk when they run Lvl4 missions, but they don't run mission together, they don't blitz lvl 5's.

THAT is why NPC corp player retention is so low. And is why NPC V Player Corp, NEED's to be fixed.



If these NPC players chat with but do not perform activities with other players of the same corp, it is because that's how they have chosen to play the game, not because they are unable to. Force or incent them into moving into player corps, and they still will chat with but will not perform activities with other players of the same corp - and in your theory will be just as likely to quit the game as if they were still in an NPC corp. CAS members, I know, get together to actually do stuff all the time.


Out of all the NPC corps in game, you know a few that do stuff together. Not intending to be rude, but that's a **** argument. I can't remember the name it, a logical fallacy? Something like that. And I do mean I'm not meaning to be rude. =\ It's just that just because YOU know people that do stuff out of the 500 or so per NPC corp, doesn't mean they ALL do something.

"A+B doesn't = K"

Thats the type of logic your using.

"I know people who work together in NPC corps therefor there must be more people that do stuff in NPC corps. "

You see what I mean?

CCP has proven that NPC corps have the LOWEST retention rates. NPC corps ARE a problem. And they need to be fixed. The statistic have proven this. Arguing that it's not the problem is biased as again, there are literally statistics to prove, are at the least point to, NPC corps being a **** area of the game that the majority of people quit.
#DeleteTheWeak
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#371 - 2015-03-16 06:21:29 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

A good fight is one that involves an opponent who has the knowledge, experience and resources to be a challenge. Also known as "people highsec griefers don't shoot at if they can possibly avoid it."


And yet again with the deliberate falsehoods.



Quote:

How is shooting the clueless in badly fit t1 ships any different than shooting red crosses or rocks? I just don't understand why you think its such an important part of the game.


I don't understand why you hate player freedom. Or why you play EVE in the first place if you hate the sandbox so much.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Valkin Mordirc
#372 - 2015-03-16 06:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
[quote=Valkin Mordirc]

100M SP wins. Just look at the other toon's KB, 25m isn't enough to skill into every racial t2/t3 cruiser and every weapon system to a competent degree, you should easily be able to work out a counter to his likely fit. Whereas the 100M toon can bring any race t3/t2 or faction to the fight with full skills in every related area. 100M has a huge advantage because he has a full range of options and is thus totally inpredictable in what he can undock.

I have 23M sp, if someone looks at my killboard they know I'm bringing a gallente cruiser or BS. That's critical knowledge and there's fuckall I can do about it.



No it doesn't.

There is a finite of SP that will go into Cruiser and fitting skills.

A 100mil SP Will not have EVERY ship at his disposal. I have over 15bil in Hard assets. But I have to go TO those assets to use them. If I'm roaming. I DO NOT have access to them. Why is that so hard to understand? NOT every fight happens on the undock. Not ever fight I'm in a ship I'm perfectly spec in.


Also I have 35mil, I don't pay attention to SP counter, because I know it's not relevant.
#DeleteTheWeak
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#373 - 2015-03-16 06:47:59 UTC
Here's another reason.. Most "leet" pirate or pvp corps have entry requirements that 95% of their own f*ing members wouldn't qualify under... Like a Jr. High Basketball team recruiting players and you have to be MJ level or they won't even reply to a submitted application.

For real. Try it. I have looked up many corps in the past and done this. you will actually laugh your ass off for a good hour or so looking it all up.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#374 - 2015-03-16 07:16:20 UTC
Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it:

I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back.

What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at.

And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#375 - 2015-03-16 08:14:09 UTC
Bottom line for me is that as long as I'm the one paying to play Eve (and am doing so within CCP's game mechanics, EULA and TOS--which are really the only rules that matter) then it's no one's damned business whether I do so in The Scope or Goonswarm. Period. I'm in an NPC corp because I choose to be. I have my reasons and I damned sure don't need to justify myself to a bunch of internet wannabe tough guys who I'll never meet in the real world and whose opinions don't matter.

I've been playing since 2007, the vast majority of that time spent in an NPC corp. It works for me and for a bunch of other people. You're pissed off because I'm an 8 year old player sitting in The Scope and not dealing with petty politics and the other annoyances of player run corps? Too bad. Suck it up and quit crying about it. Quit asking CCP to limit my choice because you feel entitled or somehow superior and that your way is the only correct way.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#376 - 2015-03-16 08:33:21 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
ICBM launch

Jeez mate.

I'd say take a chill pill and relax, but I wouldn't be so presumptive.

No one's trying to tell anyone here what to do. I think we probably all value our freedom of choice and the discussion isn't about limiting anyone's. It's just a general chat about reasons people stay in npc corps.
ashley Eoner
#377 - 2015-03-16 09:18:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
There's at least a thousand things that could cause a loss in eve that is out of your control..


Unless said person is a ganker, in which case they're just magically immune according to you, right?

Trip over yourself more.

You're failing to make anything resembling a point with that statement. Just because there's a thousand things that can cause a loss that is out of your control doesn't mean it's impossible for you to have a loss that is in your control.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#378 - 2015-03-16 09:41:23 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Black Pedro
Mine.
#379 - 2015-03-16 09:46:24 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Bottom line for me is that as long as I'm the one paying to play Eve (and am doing so within CCP's game mechanics, EULA and TOS--which are really the only rules that matter) then it's no one's damned business whether I do so in The Scope or Goonswarm. Period. I'm in an NPC corp because I choose to be. I have my reasons and I damned sure don't need to justify myself to a bunch of internet wannabe tough guys who I'll never meet in the real world and whose opinions don't matter.

I've been playing since 2007, the vast majority of that time spent in an NPC corp. It works for me and for a bunch of other people. You're pissed off because I'm an 8 year old player sitting in The Scope and not dealing with petty politics and the other annoyances of player run corps? Too bad. Suck it up and quit crying about it. Quit asking CCP to limit my choice because you feel entitled or somehow superior and that your way is the only correct way.

There is no problem with players, even veterans like yourself, staying in an NPC corp. If you are new, have limited playtime, or just prefer to go it solo, the NPC should be there for you to do what you want. The problem for the game is when NPC corp, solo-style play is the optimal way to make ISK, and the one the tutorials push you towards. This pushes players away from higher risk, more social play and into solo grinding as the most efficient way to make a space living, or worse, keeps them from ever leaving highsec and/or joining a larger (and wardeccable) corp which CCP has identified as the things that keep players in the game.

Eve is a beautiful sandbox and players should be given maximal freedom to enjoy the game and make their own stories in New Eden. But changes are needed to restore the risk vs. reward balance to encourage people to take risks and organize in groups. Don't want to respond to that encouragement? Fine, do what you want, but the most efficient way to make ISK should not be solo grinding missions or doing incursions in highsec or why would any bother to join a corp or play with others in the first place?

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#380 - 2015-03-16 11:00:54 UTC
People keep bandying about that information that CCP gave us that people who never join player corps are more likely to quit. Did it ever occur to you that those people quit because they thought EVE was boring as hell? Or they didn't make enough money to Plex and couldn't afford the subscription, or real life issues came up that prevented them from playing?

That statistic by itself is meaningless. There are a million reasons why a person would quit an MMO. I am guessing the NPC corps themselves have zero to do with it. People just don't like NPC corps for various selfish reasons and keep throwing that little useless bit of information out as if it somehow strengthens their own agenda.

So the OP asked why players stay in NPC corps. When I first started playing over 6 years ago I had a lot going on in my life but kept seeing advertisements for EVE and thought it looked interesting. The idea of being in a corp did appeal to me until I actually looked into it and realized that all the ones that seemed active and decent seemed to run their corps like a second job. That did not appeal to me at all with the things I had going on in my life so I might have left the game. But luckily I had randomly chosen CAS when I created my first character and the people there seemed helpful and friendly. They actually do things together. They help out. They have mining groups, a null sec group that teaches noobies to pvp and helps them get jump clones and takes them on roams, a wormhole group, incursion group, a mission running group. Pretty much most of the things you can do in Eve are covered.

The great thing about it is I can come and go as I please. No requirements, no commitment. My RL is hectic so sometimes I want to log in and not be bothered. Sometimes I have to take a break because RL gets in the way but when I come back I am still in that same NPC corp and many of the same old veterans are still around years later. So it has become home for me while I am playing and when I resub after taking a break I am happy to see that most of the old timers are still around.