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While you're complaining about Hisec PI spare a thought...
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Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#81 - 2011-12-06 19:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Esunisen
Lord Zim wrote:
So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?


You're right, exporting raw is the most stupid thing to do, if you pay taxes.

She saids she's paying 0, i suppose this means she has no taxes, so it makes sense.

You can have a refining planet and change the schematics according to what you have in storage.
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#82 - 2011-12-06 20:02:42 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:
A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?


EXTRACT+P1
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2011-12-06 20:17:09 UTC
Esunisen wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:
A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?


EXTRACT+P1


You don't seem to be balanced, you have factories sitting idle.

I can get more Basic Factories on an extraction planet, but I put 8 and use the excess Power and CPU to extend the range of the "base" to the ECU to cover more area.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#84 - 2011-12-06 23:32:59 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:


So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.

Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?

Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.

Looks like a losing idea to me.



Actually across three planets it would be 12 ECU and 66 odd foundries, assuming that we're only going up one level.

Labor intensive, sure. But has some hefty productivity.
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#85 - 2011-12-07 01:04:15 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:
You don't seem to be balanced, you have factories sitting idle.


When screenshot was taken, extrators were stopped for more than 4 hours, with an almost depleted deposit. Sometimes Basic Factories run 24/7, well, in null they would.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2011-12-07 04:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hundo Kay
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:


So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.

Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?

Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.

Looks like a losing idea to me.



Actually across three planets it would be 12 ECU and 66 odd foundries, assuming that we're only going up one level.

Labor intensive, sure. But has some hefty productivity.


Except now you are talking 9 planets or colonies, or whatever the hell you want to call them. I didn't say three accounts on three planets each, I said on three planets and I meant 3 installations. Love how you twist **** around to try to prove a point when you can't really prove the point.

Your way of two strip mining colonies and 1 factory colony will not yield more P1 product in the long haul and will take more effort. I don't see how that's a winning solution. Simply multiplying it by three to get nine colonies does not magicially make it smarter.

On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive?
Bahr Cudas
Beta Ray Bill
#87 - 2011-12-07 05:17:40 UTC
Brothar Rey wrote:
I don't get it.

I paid about 1.2m isk in taxes to export 1620 of a certain POS fuel off a high-sec factory planet of mine. By the looks of it, I'm able to sell it for like 35-40 times that amount. For less then 10 minutes of PI clicking every 2.5 days.

I fail to see the complaints here. People are still making isk from PI.


Sshhhhhh!! Haha Don't explain it to them. It'll be more business for us when they pack up and leave town.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2011-12-07 08:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Hundo Kay wrote:
On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive?

I was suspecting this would be the case, especially if we can only fit one ECU. I'm not sure if you can actually manage to fit 2 ECUs and 1 or 2 LPs, but I couldn't be arsed to do the maths, since it implied going in somewhere and testing the theory.

It's still rather dumb, though. From my perspective it still leaves you so hung up on exporting and importing a lot of materials at least once a day. And if it's in nullsec/lowsec, all it takes is for someone to camp the system/COs for a few days for their profits to go to ****, whereas if you extract to f.ex p2, you can go what looks like at least a week before you have to export anything.

vOv

Edit: Obviously, it should be added that extracting to p2 means two ECUs, which again means vastly reduced throughput, so if you have no taxes and just want to extract as much as possible, then I suppose p1'll be the better choice, I don't know. It's certainly better than p0, even if only just looking at the hilarious amount of work involved in exporting the p0 goo. I'm not doing the napkin work on it as I do have taxes to deal with, and not having to export more than once a week or two suits me just fine for a passive income that takes me about 5 minutes every second day to keep running after I've stabilized the planet setups.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2011-12-07 13:36:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:
On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive?

I was suspecting this would be the case, especially if we can only fit one ECU. I'm not sure if you can actually manage to fit 2 ECUs and 1 or 2 LPs, but I couldn't be arsed to do the maths, since it implied going in somewhere and testing the theory.

It's still rather dumb, though. From my perspective it still leaves you so hung up on exporting and importing a lot of materials at least once a day. And if it's in nullsec/lowsec, all it takes is for someone to camp the system/COs for a few days for their profits to go to ****, whereas if you extract to f.ex p2, you can go what looks like at least a week before you have to export anything.

vOv

Edit: Obviously, it should be added that extracting to p2 means two ECUs, which again means vastly reduced throughput, so if you have no taxes and just want to extract as much as possible, then I suppose p1'll be the better choice, I don't know. It's certainly better than p0, even if only just looking at the hilarious amount of work involved in exporting the p0 goo. I'm not doing the napkin work on it as I do have taxes to deal with, and not having to export more than once a week or two suits me just fine for a passive income that takes me about 5 minutes every second day to keep running after I've stabilized the planet setups.


The issue, in terms of efficiency, is that the ECU unit is a Power pig and consumes almost a third of the Power of a ECU and 10 Head system (2600 of the 8100 total).

This makes it very hard to get to the 11th extractor head and not gimp the factories.

In the "Old System" it was easier to do cool things like make P2 on a single planet. Now with the extreme Power required of the ECU it is not as easy to do things like that. It can be done, but you sacrifice total capacity/output for convenience.

There are many ways to "optimize" a PI production system. I choose to optimize mine around least time needed to run it. Which means minimizing hauling and reseting extractors. I know others that optimize around total output and spend more time to accomplish the extra gains.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2011-12-07 14:53:53 UTC
Yeah, I'm currently experimenting with 2 ECUs with 2-4 heads each, 3-4 basic for each type and 3-4 advanced (depending on whether or not I have excess p1/p0 I want to burn through). It's not the speediest system, but it's a hell of a lot less hassle than what it would be if I went in hard-core for p0 extraction.

Actually, come to think of it, just how quickly would one LP fill up with p0 if you could run two full ECUs? It has to suck up space something fierce.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#91 - 2011-12-07 23:37:29 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:


Except now you are talking 9 planets or colonies, or whatever the hell you want to call them. I didn't say three accounts on three planets each, I said on three planets and I meant 3 installations. Love how you twist **** around to try to prove a point when you can't really prove the point.

Your way of two strip mining colonies and 1 factory colony will not yield more P1 product in the long haul and will take more effort. I don't see how that's a winning solution. Simply multiplying it by three to get nine colonies does not magicially make it smarter.

On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive?


Hundo, you said three planets, not three colonies, which is a horse of a different color. And, bluntly, I'm not the one twisting ****.

BTW: I was using your set up that you listed (22).

Mine does 25 (admittedly by leaving off a launch pad, necessitating more of that unwelcome 'work')

Meaning that three factory worlds do 75 factories. Granted, again, high level of labor for a small increase, but the more people involved the bigger the advantage gets. We're currently working with three people. Now factor in the difference between the two with 9 people doing it:

18 factories. Or the better part of a whole planet worth of production.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2011-12-07 23:42:56 UTC
And how long until you burn out?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-12-08 00:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Hundo Kay
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:


Except now you are talking 9 planets or colonies, or whatever the hell you want to call them. I didn't say three accounts on three planets each, I said on three planets and I meant 3 installations. Love how you twist **** around to try to prove a point when you can't really prove the point.

Your way of two strip mining colonies and 1 factory colony will not yield more P1 product in the long haul and will take more effort. I don't see how that's a winning solution. Simply multiplying it by three to get nine colonies does not magicially make it smarter.

On a well balanced planet, 1 full ECU will support 8 basic factories fairly easily. So over 9 installations I will have 72 Basic Factories to your 66. And I don't have to move stuff between the planets, have the ability to move the ECU in a wide area, and haul once a week (longer now with 35k in the CO). So tell me how your 66 basic factories and hauling crap between them is more productive?


Hundo, you said three planets, not three colonies, which is a horse of a different color. And, bluntly, I'm not the one twisting ****.

BTW: I was using your set up that you listed (22).

Mine does 25 (admittedly by leaving off a launch pad, necessitating more of that unwelcome 'work')

Meaning that three factory worlds do 75 factories. Granted, again, high level of labor for a small increase, but the more people involved the bigger the advantage gets. We're currently working with three people. Now factor in the difference between the two with 9 people doing it:

18 factories. Or the better part of a whole planet worth of production.



99 out of 100 people reading my original post would know I was talking about 3 colonies, because the numbers quoted were 3 times the single "planet" I quoted, yet you somehow (being the 1) somehow took it to mean 9 colonies.

And how are you supplying and storing the finished goods from you factories with no launchpad? Hard to setup much of a system with no input and the command center as the only output.

And what magic Basic Factory or Command Centers are you using? In the EVE I play at level 5 skills I get 19000 power and each Basic Factory takes 800. I would love to see the world where you get 25 Basic Factories in one colony. (For those 1 out of 100 who thought I originally meant 9 planets, 25 * 800 = 20,000, which is a number that is greater than 19,000, thereby rendering it impossible to have 25 basic factories on a single colony)

Your stories of such a great and productive way to use strip mining planets and a P0 to P1 factory planet just keep getting better and better. At least try to keep them somewhat based in reality though. It is getting too easy to see you really have very little understanding of what you are talking about.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#94 - 2011-12-08 14:23:22 UTC
It appears there is egg on my tie, as (having put 25 factories on a single world and a LP) I went back and checked, and realized that they were not basics, but advanced. Whoops.

So, I'll simply have to adjust my ratio by having one more planet be a factory and one less be a strip mine. Poof, +8 factories over your model with nine colonies. Huh, with corrected math, my point still stands.

Re the rest of it, no, you were unclear because you were talking three planets. What is clear, however, is that you are a total *******.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2011-12-08 14:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Again, how long until you burn out?

Edit: And how much extra does all this work give you pr day, if you estimated the value in isk?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#96 - 2011-12-08 22:29:20 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Again, how long until you burn out?

Edit: And how much extra does all this work give you pr day, if you estimated the value in isk?



How long till you burn out on anything in this game? Varies from person to person. I actually enjoy refueling POS, one of the most tedious jobs in the game. I haven't burned out on it yet. So, who knows.

As far as profit: depends on what you're making and how much volume we're talking. 3 people make 10% more, roughly. As far as actual isk, depends on the number of people and the volumes you're dealing in.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2011-12-08 23:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Hundo Kay
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
It appears there is egg on my tie, as (having put 25 factories on a single world and a LP) I went back and checked, and realized that they were not basics, but advanced. Whoops.

So, I'll simply have to adjust my ratio by having one more planet be a factory and one less be a strip mine. Poof, +8 factories over your model with nine colonies. Huh, with corrected math, my point still stands.

Re the rest of it, no, you were unclear because you were talking three planets. What is clear, however, is that you are a total *******.


Yes I am a total ******* for calling bullshit, bullshit.

So I guess we will all just bow to your system that takes 50 times the effort to yield, at most, 10% more. Such productivity.

Oh wait, productivity is defined as "amount produced over effort to produce"

So you produce 110% of my system with easily 10 times the effort. So your system is 11% as productive as mine.

I'll stick with my way.

In addition, with the new links I have, on average 2000 power to play with now. I am fairly certain I can figure out how to tweak my setup to squeeze another 10% out.
Gorongo Frostfyr
#98 - 2011-12-09 00:50:34 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
Just think about how many imports/exports you can do for 600M [...]

~4400 p4 products. done in 2 months. oohooo only 300mil taxes per month. thanks ccp
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#99 - 2011-12-09 02:14:50 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:

Yes I am a total ******* for calling bullshit, bullshit.

So I guess we will all just bow to your system that takes 50 times the effort to yield, at most, 10% more. Such productivity.

Oh wait, productivity is defined as "amount produced over effort to produce"

So you produce 110% of my system with easily 10 times the effort. So your system is 11% as productive as mine.


Hundo, how much effort you think any one person is putting in? OMG once a day I have to get in my ship and fly once around the system I live in. Oh, the HORROR. I might have to UNDOCK. You might throw a lot of **** in my face, Hundo, but you have '4-4' written across you large. Looks to me like a lot less effort than, say, mining or running missions or hot dropping caps on someone.

'It's too much work! I'll only make 10% more and have to... ugh... fly in space for a WHOLE HOUR!'

I might point out, then, by that logic, the only profitable thing to do in all of EvE is run scams in Jita all day long.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2011-12-09 03:18:07 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:

Yes I am a total ******* for calling bullshit, bullshit.

So I guess we will all just bow to your system that takes 50 times the effort to yield, at most, 10% more. Such productivity.

Oh wait, productivity is defined as "amount produced over effort to produce"

So you produce 110% of my system with easily 10 times the effort. So your system is 11% as productive as mine.


Hundo, how much effort you think any one person is putting in? OMG once a day I have to get in my ship and fly once around the system I live in. Oh, the HORROR. I might have to UNDOCK. You might throw a lot of **** in my face, Hundo, but you have '4-4' written across you large. Looks to me like a lot less effort than, say, mining or running missions or hot dropping caps on someone.

'It's too much work! I'll only make 10% more and have to... ugh... fly in space for a WHOLE HOUR!'

I might point out, then, by that logic, the only profitable thing to do in all of EvE is run scams in Jita all day long.


Its so fun to debate someone who basicially makes your point for you.

Yes, your system sucks when you HAVE to fly around for an hour a day to maintain it, versus a well setup one that I have to fly around once a week for an hour to maintain.

In fact you need to log in at least once a day, because a decent ECU setup will yield more then the 1M P0 your spaceport will hold.

And how you get from me pointing out you seem to know very little about PI and showing your system is not extremely productive, to me not wanting to put effort into anything just continues to make you look stupid.

Where in any post have I mentioned hating to undock (which is extremely funny since I mainly do my PI in W-Space and there are no docks) or not putting effort into running an effiecient and effective PI system.

Seriously, you continue to try to move the conversation away from the debate at hand.

A PI system relying on P0 Strip Mining planets and P0 to P1 factory planets is a bad idea. You have continued to prove that for us with your attempt to argue for it. But by all means if you want to spend your time ineffiecently hauling P0 products all over your system then go for it. Just don't try to argue its a good idea. Its not.

And if you want to continue to sling poo because you can't argue on facts, go ahead. I enjoy you making my points for me.