EVE General Discussion

presumably responding to

So what exactly is anecdotal evidence and what isn't?


Where do these crazy disputes about gender and video games come from? Is it really a "problem" that presumably less women than men play a certain game? Can't there be some games that are more appreciated by men and some more by women. And why the ******* hell do we need to reduce such statistics to women against men? Aren't there any other factors? Did anyone even try to look for other factors at all? Otherwise I have to assume that this is ******* sexist! Sorry.


PS.: I just hope there won't be implementations like in real life that assure that at least 40% of active players on tranquility have to be women and men have to wait in a queue until more women log in.

Nothing, like paving the way for the bystander effect by helping to change the way people think, right?

Which assumes that people are being jerks. Just because a woman doesn't like a behavior does not make it jerky, immature, something involving testosterone (which you would think was PCP to hear some of you talk), sexist, or anything else negative. In some cases that might be true, but in most cases its a matter of different people having different sensibilities.

Female sensibilities are not more important than male ones. Females are just as likely as males to engage in immature and objectionable behavior - just of differnt types. The ability to get away with pretending one's feelings must be protected because of ehat's in ones pants is one of the privileges of being female.

Well said. As I said earlier in this thread, this discussion isn't about equality or injustice or community, it's about POWER, and how some want the power to force people to not offend them.

EVE isn't all that different from other MMOs when it comes to females as a portion of it's community (and like all EVE players, most EVE females are non-nonsense kick ass indelicate heros not at all represented by the vocal social justice minority contingent you find on forums).

I have a slightly different take than Jenn to that post.



The right to say something offensive, as much as it is a right, doesn't have anything to do with a "sensibility". A person can say all manners of offensive things they want, but it's hypocritical of them to be surprised when the hammer comes down as negative feedback.

The problem for some of the worst offenders in chat is they believe they have the implicit right to say whatever they want without verbal retaliation.

We may disagree on what's offensive, but to be honest most adults playing EVE are smart enough to figure out what they're saying is insulting to someone or not. I believe you have every right to use that insult, but I also believe that opens the door to anyone else freely insulting you back.

I feel that people shouldn't create that situation by being insulting and offensive. It's a simple enough rule to abide by in 2015.

It's difficult to get people to treat others with respect when they seem to struggle with self respect. I find the people with a seeming *need* to be disrespectful, online and in the real world, try to present it as coming from a place of total security, superiority and confidence; but in actuality it seems like they are some of the most insecure and easily threatened people if you look at their actions.

It's not my place to tell a woman "just ignore them" if someone disrespects them on comms, but you really have to pick your battles. Is being told to get into the kitchen equivalent or even comparable to having a derogatory racial term dropped on a member of that race? I know what my opinion is, but I have no idea what the woman feels as I am not one. Some might take offense to that comparison in and of itself. The city I live in had some campaign directed at men taking up too much space on the Subway. To which I somehow ended up watching a video about how this was a form of male oppression and not much different from blacks being told they had to sit at the back of the bus. I can't make stuff like this up. A life without any actual hardship must be nice.

Someone drops the c*word on a woman in comms? I can see the parallel. It's unambiguous as to the intent and mindset of the speaker. The kitchen comment could have 100% been from someone seeking to deride the woman. Or it could have just been an idiot. I don't know in that case.

The best I or anyone can do is attempt to empathize in any case. In interacting with people we don't get to choose what offends and doesn't offend. That choice is up to the offended individual. Hell, in this very thread you have a self proclaimed black person showing how pretty much nothing bothers them, so what's everybody else's problem being so "sensitive". At least that's what I take away in between the tap dancing and friend chicken jokes more self defacing than anyone could possibly level at someone could level at someone through voice chat. So clearly offense is a very case by case thing.

Mature people, whether they meant offense or not, just apologize for the offense and both parties can move on with a better understanding of the particular boundaries regarding their relationship. Unfortunately mature people are rare in my experience and we're slowly moving into new areas where we have "offense police", people popping up to take offense by proxy, people fixating on what combination of words is an is not offensive. We should be looking at intent instead, intent of the speaker.

I'm going to say something incredibly contradictory and almost stupid (This should come as no surprise is anyone actually read my posts). Saying sexist and racist things does not make you a sexist or a racist. Believing them does. Not saying sexist or racist things does not make you not a sexist or not a racist. Believing them does. But since none of us are telepathic, we can't know what people believe anymore than we can choose what they should and shouldn't be offended by.

At the end of the day, probably best just not to say such things, particularly over comms or the internet where pretty much none of the recipients have the slightest clue who you are so you avoid being misunderstood. TOS help to save people the trouble of reaching this conclusion on their own.

Unless you don't care about being thought to be sexist, racist, or just an ass because you are in fact sexist, racist, or just an ass. In which case have at it. Just deal with the repercussions and don't waste our time explaining it away or giving us some Bruce Wayne/Batman origin story when you're called on it.

I'm sure the potential bad treatment would turn women away from the game, but I don't think that is something exclusive to EVE. Women play other games, online and the other communities hold the same considerations in terms of sexism and racism. It doesn't help, but at the end of the day I think the game just lends itself more to male gender stereotypes and while women are perfectly capable of enjoying it if they give it a chance. It doesn't help if/when a woman or any player for that matter gets chased away by the game by belligerent hostile behavior towards them because of gender/race/orientation sure, but I've played long enough to know that this is a big game and is not comprised of all types. It may take more effort, but anyone that puts in the time can find a good group of people that respect each other and enjoy playing together.

I honestly think that the setting and premise just doesn't have mass appeal to women in general moreso than the community. I mean there are some unpleasant entities floating around, but space is big. There are some chill ones too.

OP asked why so few women play. The obvious answer - which has been stated numerous times - is that the community has a reputation for toxic behaviour, fairly or unfairly. If anyone wants a deeper understanding, try thinking like a woman.


"STFU and take it like a man" seems like a strange definition of freedom.


Haven't seen anyone crusading on this topic for years tbh - apart from Detective Teg perhaps. That went well.

I'm a bit bored of having to intervene in these types of disputes if I'm honest. I tend to suggest skipping attempting to reason with someone being abusive and just shoot them (especially if they're blue). There are corp CEOs, Directors, Alliance leaders, HR officers who have to deal with this tripe on an almost daily basis ingame. Probably a fair chunk of GM time is spent on it. The EULA is flouted so much there's a riot when it is enforced. When you have to write a formal code of conduct for your members which is more or less "don't be an ********" you start to wonder just how dim people really are.

When someone explicitly asks how more female players can be encouraged to play EvE, it's actually simplest to reply that they can't under current conditions. Which can really only be effectively challenged by the dominant group ingame.


Agree with your comments - and advising someone to ignore being baited doesn't have to be condescending. But your corp and alliance comms are supposed to be your mates, not enemies. The battles are supposed to be in space, or against other entities. It's not surprising people avoid situations where they end up getting into arguments on comms over what is/isn't appropriate. It's simpler just to avoid the scenario altogether. You hear that sentiment from male as well as female players who can't stand certain alliances because they're so annoying in comms, and I don't think it's a sign of personal weakness or immaturity. Probably the reverse, particularly if they're prepared to argue the point.

You write as though you think you represent the majority of EVE. The majority is often silent and not loud mouths who argue and curse at each other.

It only takes 2-3 guys showing how macho they are on comms and a lack of someone kicking them out to sour a channel of any size.
Much like you, I and any third party in this thread without an ISD kicking us around and even that doesn't stop us.

This is your personal bias and projection talking. I speak for myself and no one else unless I have an individual's express consent to speak for them. Try reading what I write instead of reading things as if you wrote it.

edit: to be clear, im not speaking for the majrotiy, Im saying that it's stupid to expect people to conform to someone else's norms just because they come in and say "I'm special as I lack Y chromosome". And i practice what I preach, I don't come in to this game expecting it's overwhelmingly white majority to start suddenly liking Tyler Perry movies...which are hilarious btw.




And? This probably speaks more to your insecurities than it does to what someone else is doing. The fact that you think someone needs 'kicking out' because they are saying things you don't like again speaks to that authoritarian tendency of yours.

Read the thraed and you will find a few.

Tip : You aren't one.