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Crime & Punishment

 
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The Carebear Corp that got scammed for 40 bil
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Inata Policar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-02-06 14:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Inata Policar
To start this out, there aren't many screenshots since this lasted for 2 months.
Second, I know what I did is bad, maybe I'm a sociopath, maybe not, but I have lots of pixels.
The previous heist by another player - (highly recommended read)

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2t7zun/a_corp_theft/?limit=500

BACKGROUND INFO - I joined this corp near the beginning of December under the guise of being a station trader looking for an industry corp to long game.

I ended up joining this corporation led by a multiboxer miner looking to build up his corp after having quit for a year, I obliged and together we built up a pretty sick mining/pve corporation over the next month.
Seeing as I was a member that joined at almost the start of the corporation, I was quickly given trust, and I often took on roles that people didn't want to do (Diplomacy, recruiting, market research, etc.)


The heist-
Quickly I was promoted to the position of "Diplomacy Director" and "Logistics Director"
Just as I was about to pull off a heist worth around 15 bil, another member (The creator of the other thread) hijacked around 20~ bil by pretending to be a JF pilot, needless to say I was pissed but I stuck around.
This past day, I was approached by CEO and asked if I could sell $500 of plex for him, I obliged, as it was an arrangement we often did before with far smaller amounts (Usually 3 or 4 plex, I'd get half the difference between jita buy and sell orders) - Except this time I kept the Plex for myself

http://imgur.com/xlCuYTw&m7lgOeI&9uv9i4b#2

So, since I was running with the PLEX, I decided to rob as much as I could from the corp to ransom back later, ended up getting a decent haul

http://imgur.com/xlCuYTw,m7lgOeI,9uv9i4b

Took them a few hours to realize the hangars were empty, and once I did, the with hunt began in comms, and I convinced them it must have been an industry officer, it was quite fun to watch the players pointing the finger at everyone who moved
Then, after being found out and kicked, I receive this mail which actually kinda broke my heart

http://imgur.com/xlCuYTw&m7lgOeI&9uv9i4b#1
Cheers, sorry for the lack of logs but I'm not the best at bragging.

Tl;dr - Joined a corp to long game it, ended up with a 25~ bil haul after a month

Update - Forgot to mention that the assets in the contract was all the stored ore, minerals, fittings, hulls etc. sitting in their null sec renter station, ended up selling for 1.5 bil to a random corp near them
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-02-06 15:27:14 UTC
I saw this on Reddit...and the response was generally negative. There's nothing really special about joining a startup corporation and robbing them blind when it grows. It just proves you're untrustworthy.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-02-06 15:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Well...

Firstly, congrats on the ISK received.

It is the nature of EVE. The weak are prey, it really is as simple as that.

He was just to trustworthy with corp members and paid the price. It is sad that made him leave, if he truly was that new I wonder if he actually sunk real money for plex to get things going. Lossing real money is always terrible, but if he only lost isk he made ingame I bet it would have not hit home as hard.

Needless to say, theft is theft, people will prolly warn corps when you join them, or if you are lucky nobody will really care. leaving you to do so again and again.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Inata Policar
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-02-06 15:35:06 UTC
Agent Unknown wrote:
I saw this on Reddit...and the response was generally negative. There's nothing really special about joining a startup corporation and robbing them blind when it grows. It just proves you're untrustworthy.


Mainly I wanted to see how the response would be taken here since I make a primary amount of my income off of this.
Inata Policar
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-02-06 15:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Inata Policar
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Well...

Firstly, congrats on the ISK received.

It is the nature of EVE. The weak are prey, it really is as simple as that.

He was just to trustworthy with corp members and paid the price. It is sad that made him leave, if he truly was that new I wonder if he actually sunk real money for plex to get things going. Lossing real money is always terrible, but if he only lost isk he made ingame I bet it would have not hit home as hard.

Needless to say, theft is theft, people will prolly warn corps when you join them, or if you are lucky nobody will really care. leaving you to do so again and again.


He wasn't new, he's been playing for years, he took a year break and came back, which is when I came into the picture.

Also the toon in question was a station trading alt and a miner I bought for 2 bil, so I'm perfectly fine to repeat.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6 - 2015-02-06 16:17:10 UTC
2 months for a 25b payout? :effort:
He did pretty much just give you the PLEX too, it's not like you carefully played out some elaborate theft for this so there's not even a great story to it.

Congrats and all that though.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Demetri Dentrov
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-02-06 16:20:05 UTC
Well, as the "New player" who is ostensibly an industrialist and has less than 4m SP. I expect I'm supposed to be the person that decries your actions and cries foul, with the obligatory "... but they trusted you!" added with a quivering lip.

But I just can't. The guy should have known better and walked right into it anyway. Even Admiral Ackbar would have seen that coming.

This is the inherent problem with "Carebear industrialist corps" that are filled with noob miners. All your members are essentially useless for PvP or anything requiring advanced skills . The instant you put up a POS to support your mining operations (Thinking it's a safe place for your Orca to park.) you become irresistible war dec bait. War decs and mining targets don't mix, so that starts the "We can go to null!" discussion.

Anyone with any sense would have seen this coming and used their existing freighter alt as the JF pilot.

I think my new mantra in Eve is "No trust without collateral."
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#8 - 2015-02-06 17:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Haedonism Bot
I salute you. Well done. o7

My only complaint is that you didn't name names. The other guy on reddit also carefully edited all names from his screenshots. It makes for a more memorable story if you disclose the details. Since there are no real consequences for this sort of thing (in the real world sense), there is no reason to conceal the identities of your targets.

Just read the whole reddit thread and had to chuckle at the negativity. The post-Asakai generation is in full force over there. The top comment saying that the guy was an evil person in RL got almost 800 upvotes. Kids these days.Roll

In your case we don't have a real picture of the aftermath, but in the first example it is clear that the guy left the corp stronger than he found it, just a bit lighter in terms of imaginary space money. He taught a bunch of miners to fleet up and kill wardeccers, for goodness sake. Probably gave them some of the most fun times they've had in the game. If the CEO was spending his life savings to buy PLEX to fund his corp then well that's sad for him, but I'm sure nobody told him that that was a great idea, and once it's in-game it's subject to all the normal rules and there is no good reason not to steal it.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Inata Policar
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-02-06 17:48:31 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
I salute you. Well done. o7

My only complaint is that you didn't name names. The other guy on reddit also carefully edited all names from his screenshots. It makes for a more memorable story if you disclose the details. Since there are no real consequences for this sort of thing (in the real world sense), there is no reason to conceal the identities of your targets.


Someone posted the names and such in the reddit thread, I just am not one to rub salt in the wound
Shay Reve
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-02-06 18:19:32 UTC
For the actual profit : 10/10. Well done.

For the scam itself : 1/10. Stealing from someone (who actually was stupid/naive/whatever enough to give it away) is not considered a scam. There is no grand design , no plot , no difficulty involved.

For your scamming career:
Try to be VERY careful when boasting about stealing stuff in the sandbox freedom of EVE. Robbing someone of his PLEX, which is directly associated with real life money can be prosecuted as a criminal act according and depending on laws and regulations applicable in each country/state/other (read the terms of service). Not to mention advertising it. You will find the relative detail in your post.

Most people are unaware of this and feel somewhat safe behind cyber names and game safeties. Blurred definitions however may lead to consequences outside sandbox scamming and dealing with real life's justice system. Yes cyber-crime laws are a fresh field and still evolving but actions involving money, especially when it is the property of someone else, don't get easily overlooked.

I don't mean to sound grim or anything. Just felt the obligation to let people know how things look from the 'outside' due to my actual involvement in a law related profession. There are a number of debated articles and posts around these and other forums mentioning how EVE 'promotes' specific behaviors, forgetting how ALL responsibility is on the actual player. I am really amazed at how many players prefer to remain ignorant. Take care when scamming and feeling the urge to share your 'success'.

Smart, shady scams are your friends. Apologies for the tl;dr post.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-02-06 18:36:50 UTC
Shay Reve wrote:
For the actual profit : 10/10. Well done.

For the scam itself : 1/10. Stealing from someone (who actually was stupid/naive/whatever enough to give it away) is not considered a scam. There is no grand design , no plot , no difficulty involved.

For your scamming career:
Try to be VERY careful when boasting about stealing stuff in the sandbox freedom of EVE. Robbing someone of his PLEX, which is directly associated with real life money can be prosecuted as a criminal act according and depending on laws and regulations applicable in each country/state/other (read the terms of service). Not to mention advertising it. You will find the relative detail in your post.

Most people are unaware of this and feel somewhat safe behind cyber names and game safeties. Blurred definitions however may lead to consequences outside sandbox scamming and dealing with real life's justice system. Yes cyber-crime laws are a fresh field and still evolving but actions involving money, especially when it is the property of someone else, don't get easily overlooked.

I don't mean to sound grim or anything. Just felt the obligation to let people know how things look from the 'outside' due to my actual involvement in a law related profession. There are a number of debated articles and posts around these and other forums mentioning how EVE 'promotes' specific behaviors, forgetting how ALL responsibility is on the actual player. I am really amazed at how many players prefer to remain ignorant. Take care when scamming and feeling the urge to share your 'success'.

Smart, shady scams are your friends. Apologies for the tl;dr post.


Talking shyte is also not allowed. Which is why you did it behind an alt.

Stealing ingame plex is never considered stealing real money since plex has no really value in the world once it is in the game. That like saying the plex I bought with my isk is now protected because it has a real world value.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Paranoid Loyd
#12 - 2015-02-06 18:40:33 UTC
Shay Reve wrote:
For the actual profit : 10/10. Well done.

For the scam itself : 1/10. Stealing from someone (who actually was stupid/naive/whatever enough to give it away) is not considered a scam. There is no grand design , no plot , no difficulty involved.

For your scamming career:
Try to be VERY careful when boasting about stealing stuff in the sandbox freedom of EVE. Robbing someone of his PLEX, which is directly associated with real life money can be prosecuted as a criminal act according and depending on laws and regulations applicable in each country/state/other (read the terms of service). Not to mention advertising it. You will find the relative detail in your post.

Most people are unaware of this and feel somewhat safe behind cyber names and game safeties. Blurred definitions however may lead to consequences outside sandbox scamming and dealing with real life's justice system. Yes cyber-crime laws are a fresh field and still evolving but actions involving money, especially when it is the property of someone else, don't get easily overlooked.

I don't mean to sound grim or anything. Just felt the obligation to let people know how things look from the 'outside' due to my actual involvement in a law related profession. There are a number of debated articles and posts around these and other forums mentioning how EVE 'promotes' specific behaviors, forgetting how ALL responsibility is on the actual player. I am really amazed at how many players prefer to remain ignorant. Take care when scamming and feeling the urge to share your 'success'.

Smart, shady scams are your friends. Apologies for the tl;dr post.

You are terribly misinformed. Stop spreading this crap.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Inata Policar
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-02-06 18:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Inata Policar
Shay Reve wrote:
For the actual profit : 10/10. Well done.

For the scam itself : 1/10. Stealing from someone (who actually was stupid/naive/whatever enough to give it away) is not considered a scam. There is no grand design , no plot , no difficulty involved.

For your scamming career:
Try to be VERY careful when boasting about stealing stuff in the sandbox freedom of EVE. Robbing someone of his PLEX, which is directly associated with real life money can be prosecuted as a criminal act according and depending on laws and regulations applicable in each country/state/other (read the terms of service). Not to mention advertising it. You will find the relative detail in your post.

Most people are unaware of this and feel somewhat safe behind cyber names and game safeties. Blurred definitions however may lead to consequences outside sandbox scamming and dealing with real life's justice system. Yes cyber-crime laws are a fresh field and still evolving but actions involving money, especially when it is the property of someone else, don't get easily overlooked.

I don't mean to sound grim or anything. Just felt the obligation to let people know how things look from the 'outside' due to my actual involvement in a law related profession. There are a number of debated articles and posts around these and other forums mentioning how EVE 'promotes' specific behaviors, forgetting how ALL responsibility is on the actual player. I am really amazed at how many players prefer to remain ignorant. Take care when scamming and feeling the urge to share your 'success'.

Smart, shady scams are your friends. Apologies for the tl;dr post.


What I think people are missing here isn't that I just joined and he gave me plex, but rather that I built up enough trust with him that he was perfectly willing to give me that much.

Also I'm safe from legal action because he gave me the PLEX willingly, I never signed a contract saying I would give it back. It's like, if you handed someone $100 and asked them to bring back more, if they never came back you'd have 0 legal ground for suing them.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#14 - 2015-02-06 19:16:18 UTC
Inata Policar wrote:
What I think people are missing here isn't that I just joined and he gave me plex, but rather that I built up enough trust with him that he was perfectly willing to give me that much.

Also I'm safe from legal action because he gave me the PLEX willingly, I never signed a contract saying I would give it back. It's like, if you handed someone $100 and asked them to bring back more, if they never came back you'd have 0 legal ground for suing them.
Verbal agreements can be legally binding. There's a reason con artists get sent to prison even though their victims hand over cash willingly.

That said, it'd be unlikely a game based theft would ever go that far. It's certainly an interesting point when it is PLEX that was directly injected from a purchase though.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Shailagh
6Six6Six6Six
#15 - 2015-02-06 19:21:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Inata Policar wrote:
What I think people are missing here isn't that I just joined and he gave me plex, but rather that I built up enough trust with him that he was perfectly willing to give me that much.

Also I'm safe from legal action because he gave me the PLEX willingly, I never signed a contract saying I would give it back. It's like, if you handed someone $100 and asked them to bring back more, if they never came back you'd have 0 legal ground for suing them.
Verbal agreements can be legally binding. There's a reason con artists get sent to prison even though their victims hand over cash willingly.

That said, it'd be unlikely a game based theft would ever go that far. It's certainly an interesting point when it is PLEX that was directly injected from a purchase though.


Omfg you are allowed to scam peoples plex they just bought with 500$ of their family's monthly grocery fund.

You just aint allowed to ask/convince the guy to take $500 from his families grocery fund and THEN directly scam it from him.
If he took a loan on his house and bought plex by his own free will and you didnt suggest it to him, you can scam it all legally.

Just cant convince the guy to spend money to buy plex specifically for you to then scam

Wtf cant you people read or listen?
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#16 - 2015-02-06 21:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Haedonism Bot
My understanding is that it is forbidden to talk somebody into buying PLEX just so you can steal it from them. That could just be a wild rumor though. In any case it crosses an ethical line if it's more than 2 or 3 PLEX.

However, if someone gets the bright idea to buy $500 worth of PLEX all on their own you almost have a moral obligation to steal it from them. You probably did that guy a huge favor by getting him to quit EVE. Otherwise he probably would have bankrupted himself in the real world just to buy more imaginary spacebux.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Asia Leigh
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#17 - 2015-02-06 21:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Asia Leigh
Shay Reve wrote:
For the actual profit : 10/10. Well done.

For the scam itself : 1/10. Stealing from someone (who actually was stupid/naive/whatever enough to give it away) is not considered a scam. There is no grand design , no plot , no difficulty involved.

For your scamming career:
Try to be VERY careful when boasting about stealing stuff in the sandbox freedom of EVE. Robbing someone of his PLEX, which is directly associated with real life money can be prosecuted as a criminal act according and depending on laws and regulations applicable in each country/state/other (read the terms of service). Not to mention advertising it. You will find the relative detail in your post.

Most people are unaware of this and feel somewhat safe behind cyber names and game safeties. Blurred definitions however may lead to consequences outside sandbox scamming and dealing with real life's justice system. Yes cyber-crime laws are a fresh field and still evolving but actions involving money, especially when it is the property of someone else, don't get easily overlooked.

I don't mean to sound grim or anything. Just felt the obligation to let people know how things look from the 'outside' due to my actual involvement in a law related profession. There are a number of debated articles and posts around these and other forums mentioning how EVE 'promotes' specific behaviors, forgetting how ALL responsibility is on the actual player. I am really amazed at how many players prefer to remain ignorant. Take care when scamming and feeling the urge to share your 'success'.

Smart, shady scams are your friends. Apologies for the tl;dr post.


This is not true... Once the Plex is redeemed in game it no longer holds an IRL monetary value.

From my understanding there are only a few rules regarding scamming.

1. You can't scam on the character Bazar.
2. During a Plex for humanity drive, you can't collect plex from other players under the guise of donating it then keeping it for yourself.
3. You cant impersonate a CCP employee or an ISD volunteer to perpetrate the scam.
4. You can't convince someone to buy plex using IRL funds for the express reason of scamming them out of it.

Everything else is fair game.

Someone please correct me if I missed anything or am wrong on any of my points.
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Jasmine Deer
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-02-07 08:01:15 UTC
Inata Policar wrote:

Second, I know what I did is bad


Hard for me to feel any sympathy for your "victim" if he/she was a multiboxer miner.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#19 - 2015-02-07 10:08:39 UTC
Shailagh wrote:
Omfg you are allowed to scam peoples plex they just bought with 500$ of their family's monthly grocery fund.

You just aint allowed to ask/convince the guy to take $500 from his families grocery fund and THEN directly scam it from him.
If he took a loan on his house and bought plex by his own free will and you didnt suggest it to him, you can scam it all legally.

Just cant convince the guy to spend money to buy plex specifically for you to then scam

Wtf cant you people read or listen?
Oh check it out, a lawyer!
Depending on what country you are in, laws differ. I'm pretty sure there was someone tried for deleting someone character once, and there certainly have been some insane lawsuits come out of second life. Over here in the UK, a politician has been pushing for legal definitions to be changes so that in-game assets are considered for theft cases, so stealing someone's isk would actually be seen as theft - regardless of whether you bought it will real money or not.

Just because all of that is completely insane doesn't mean it's not something that should be at the very least thought about when robbing people ingame.

I'm not saying "ooh, watch out, you'll get arrested for ingame scamming!" I'm just saying it's not quite as clear cut as some people think it is.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Enyalie
Sanguine Legion
#20 - 2015-02-07 12:57:38 UTC
Inata Policar wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Well...

Firstly, congrats on the ISK received.

It is the nature of EVE. The weak are prey, it really is as simple as that.

He was just to trustworthy with corp members and paid the price. It is sad that made him leave, if he truly was that new I wonder if he actually sunk real money for plex to get things going. Lossing real money is always terrible, but if he only lost isk he made ingame I bet it would have not hit home as hard.

Needless to say, theft is theft, people will prolly warn corps when you join them, or if you are lucky nobody will really care. leaving you to do so again and again.


He wasn't new, he's been playing for years, he took a year break and came back, which is when I came into the picture.

Also the toon in question was a station trading alt and a miner I bought for 2 bil, so I'm perfectly fine to repeat.



Only idiots call it a toon.
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