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Removing attributes

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-02-06 02:28:39 UTC
Skill Points for a PLEX, hell yeah.

So don't care of standings etc. etc. Anymore!

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#22 - 2015-02-06 03:19:41 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
The discussion of how to alter the usage or gaining of attributes does tend to root back to the general question of are they relavant to todays game of Eve, as it stands. It is a natural part of MMO's when we deal with the character himself but when a character is a pod pilot of a much bigger thing then charisma is kind of a non starter.

But the idea Min has proposed has some legs if you think 'what are we going to do with those slots that suddenly don't hold attribute implants anymore? What if those were more focussed skill implants or even specifc training ones (bonus to missile skill improvement'

m

Not a real fan of the OP.
To me this idea has some real merit and it is something that I could support.
I spend a lot of time working with new players and the attributes and how they affect skills training is always one of the tougher parts of teaching players the ins and outs of this game. The use of a lower cost system of implants that boost training speed in a specific area could make this whole processes easier without changing it at a fundamental level.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-02-06 09:55:54 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
The discussion of how to alter the usage or gaining of attributes does tend to root back to the general question of are they relavant to todays game of Eve, as it stands. It is a natural part of MMO's when we deal with the character himself but when a character is a pod pilot of a much bigger thing then charisma is kind of a non starter.

But the idea Min has proposed has some legs if you think 'what are we going to do with those slots that suddenly don't hold attribute implants anymore? What if those were more focussed skill implants or even specifc training ones (bonus to missile skill improvement'

m

Not a real fan of the OP.
To me this idea has some real merit and it is something that I could support.
I spend a lot of time working with new players and the attributes and how they affect skills training is always one of the tougher parts of teaching players the ins and outs of this game. The use of a lower cost system of implants that boost training speed in a specific area could make this whole processes easier without changing it at a fundamental level.


lower cost implants and boosted training speed will only help older players train up cyno alts etc all the more. The current system is balanced and really not that hard at all, especially with evemon available. If new players find the attribute/skills/remap stuff complicated they really shouldn't even glance at industry.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#24 - 2015-02-07 05:40:32 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
lower cost implants and boosted training speed will only help older players train up cyno alts etc all the more. The current system is balanced and really not that hard at all, especially with evemon available. If new players find the attribute/skills/remap stuff complicated they really shouldn't even glance at industry.

I believe some mis-understanding is going on here and no doubt I am part to blame.
I have no problems with the current system and if it is to stay in the game I am OK with that.

If you think of implants as they currently are then I would agree that lower cost is bad. However remove the current implants from the thought process and replace them with what is essentially a disposable implant designed to boost your learning in one specific area.
What would change is attributes would be gone and replaced with these disposable implants. Since these are disposable and would be destroyed on a fairly consistent basis as you trained skills they would need to be significant cheaper than current.

A brief comparison of current vs my thoughts based on Mike's post.

Current you buy attribute enhancers and combined with the remap mechanic you can alter how fast you train.
The remaps can be extremely hard for new players to grasp. They have a hard time understanding why they would not do a remap to train a skill so they go against advice and do it anyway. Then a few weeks later they discover that the next skill they want to train requires an entirely different remap so they are forced to make a decision train really slowly or wait for as much as a year until they can remap again. In this system the new players fall behind the vets because they do not have the ISK to spend on implants and they often fall even further behind because they are training skills on an improper remap.

Enter the no attributes system.
You still train skills at a base rate even with no implants.
Want to train for blasters plug in the proper implant and you get what amounts to a remap so the blaster skill trains faster.
A few weeks later you have completed blaster training and want to move on you simply unplug one implant and plug in the next.
The primary advantage to this is there are no long waits to train a skill because of your remap.
There is a possibility that this type of system could make the gap between new players and vets even wider so that would have to be looked at very carefully but I can think of several ways this could be dealt with. Overall this type of system would offer all players more flexibility in training but it is my opinion that it would benefit the newer players the most.

One comment from my peanut gallery here as I am typing this is that it would remove the advantages of the higher level implants and that is something we would need to look at as well.
Having one level of implant takes us yet another step towards balance in training speed between new players and vets.
On the other hand it would penalize the older players to a degree because they cannot buy higher level implants.
So would we have plus 2, plus 3 etc levels to these new implants, or only a single level of boost?
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-02-08 17:14:41 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Onlly problem is the implants, which are expensive. Replace with a POS fuel type system at a home system, which consumes PI and ice type materials to raise stats, wouldn't matter how many times your pod explodes, demand for PI/Ice goes up, more transactions causing small isk sink, throw in LP items like star base charters as another sink (would be cheap cost, secondary sink), more risk for players since hi-sec couldn't support the demand further requiring more null/low/WH travel....naw, stupid idea Roll removing the one time cost of an implant and replacing with an hourly cost that isn't as high so long as the market is stupidly flooded....being that BS ships are 3 times their cost from a few years ago, and you rarely see them flown outside missions, it wouldn't be that stupid of an idea once the surplus caught up to the demand Straight



I keep seeing this as a common theme to the reason why attributes should be eliminated. "Implants are expensive" - Nothing says that a newbie has to use +4s or even +3s. the game has +1 and +2s for a reason..

Another reason I see is people saying that newbies are hurt by remapping since they have to train a variety of skills.. Well. isn't a balanced skillset ALSO a remap option?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#26 - 2015-02-08 17:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Mike Azariah wrote:


But the idea Min has proposed has some legs if you think 'what are we going to do with those slots that suddenly don't hold attribute implants anymore? What if those were more focussed skill implants or even specifc training ones (bonus to missile skill improvement'

m


So instead of 2 obligatory implants that allow me to skill shields, armour, engineering, production, electronics and e-war, mining, a little of drones, a little of navigation, a little of PI, etc, i get one implant for each?

bit of a d*** move making me change implants more often whilst making them no less obligatory.

edit- and the person who will have to change implants the most often will be the noob.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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