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Getting back into EVE - Level 3 Ship Choices
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GordonO
BURN EDEN
#21 - 2015-02-09 02:16:43 UTC
Where you plan to go missions, applying the right damage is pretty important to the ship type you choose.

... What next ??
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-02-09 03:20:00 UTC
Eladanus wrote:
Hey guys,

My skills are lowish (12mil) and split all over the place, but I'm looking for recommendations for good ships to get going in. In the past I've used a drake and a harbinger, both with success - but I'm also now looking at a brutix and hurricane.



The Harbinger has its uses but is pretty ordinary as a mission boat. If you must run an Amarr BC in missions the Prophecy is the boat of choice.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2015-02-09 06:12:07 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Does Mach run them the fastest? Yes, I believe Stoic actually compiled numbers showing that it does. The caveat here is you need a strong understanding of how it should be flown for it to be more efficient.
Should it be recommended to folks that don't know what they are doing? Probably not.
Is it over kill? That is a matter of opinion. It comes down to what your goals are.



I agree somewhat of what you said.

Here is that post of Stoic's:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345580

He admits that he did it for giggles and laughs. Read the entire post. Those Republic Fleet Gyros are about 75M each.

For all that time and effort, going as fast as possible to and thru each mission, trying not to waste a second, is just a bit too much.

And after it all, what did he end with? It really wasn't done to make any money. Probably lost more on the salvage than what was made on the bounties.


IMHO

-Kirst


He cooked up a 80 mil/hr level 3 mission running setup.

The way to get the most out of missions requires you to meet the following demands.

1. LP is king. Salvage and bounties are secondary to LP rewards, only kill what must be killed and salvage as you go. Never stick around to salvage the grid.

2. Warp speed is the enemy. Getting to and from missions (especially level 3s) is where you will spend most of your time if you are blitzing missions. Warp speed rigs are a must and the implants are very good to have. Getting a battleship to 3au/sec is good, getting it to frigate speeds is best.

3. Projection. You want to get your firepower out as far as possible to reduce time spent on a mission, battleships do this far better than cruisers and battlecruisers.

4. Tank. Battleships already come with a hefty buffer for level 3 missions so all you need is a single repair mod for a tank. You can get away with a med Armour repper.

5. Fitting slots. Battleships have more room to play with so you can fit a lot more things that will help with projectiong, tracking and firepower.

Any battleships, fitted for speed will wipe the floor with anything else other than the sentry ishtar. OP said he had amarr battleships, a pulse apoc fitted with tracking and damage with a med to large repper and 3x hyperspacial rigs (preferably t2) will do great in level 3 amarr missions. Not as fast as a mach in warp but cheaper, easier to get into and chances are the OP has all the skills needed or close enough to not take too much time.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#24 - 2015-02-12 00:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Oh my. You have been busy writing a treatise, haven't you. Maybe it’s you who’s bent out of shape. I’m still laughing and giggling.

If your goal in a mission is to go as fast as you fu**ing can, and then race back to your agent, then by all means go for it buddy. It has nothing to do with “efficiency”. Maybe insanity.
But not everyone thinks like you. It appears that you are an advocate of the Mach. You can express your opinion, and I can state mine. I offered to the OP, that maybe the Mach isn’t the best choice, and I stand by it. Stoic did it for giggles and laughs.

But no, you want to nic pic. OK, let’s do this.

Really? You compared your Mach to a Hurricane?

Your stats:
Mach completed the mission in 1m 3s. Did I read that right, that the Cane took 1m 9s? Hardly enough time to clear a room before the other one showed up. And with the other Cane setup, the Mach was 24s faster. Wow! Oh yeah, that’s something to spend 500m more on.

I also notice that the missions you posted are probably the easiest L3 missions that there are!

What goes around - 5 Cruisers
Stop the Thief - 5 Cruisers and 1 Frigate
Guristas Spies - 4 BCs and 3 Destroyers.
Duo of Death - Really, ah c’mon, 2 BCs.

Enough, save your breath. You’ve even convinced me more, and maybe now the OP, not to get a Mach for L3s. Dang, I forgot to mention the cost of those Federation damage mods. (in Jita they were about 80M each.) And you are exactly right, I've never flown a Mach, don't need to, and don't want to, especially in a L3. I also have never made any comparisons as you say . . . until now.

What you have convinced me to do is to fix up another Ferox. The original setup used did very well in L3s. This new hull, will have warp mods, more tracking, and Federation damage mods. Hey, it's only about 380M, but I'll be able to run missions faster with it.

In the original setup, the Ferox had 607dps, .026 tracking, and 2.5 warp speed. The new setup has 647dps, .043 tracking, and 3.9 warp speed. I believe the Mach has about 1067+dps, .054 tracking and 4.7 warp speed.

I guess it’s only fair to fit it with mods that the Mach has.

I've already run a few missions with it, and it is much faster than the original. The tank is suffering, but it’s survivable. I haven’t gotten any of those easy, one room missions you’ve shown, not yet.

OK, back to some stats. That Hurricane suffers from range, even if you used 720s. There cycle time is 7.2s. 425s on the Cane would be worse for range. The Mach’s big guns cycle at 3.1. The Ferox’s 250s cycle at 2.8! So you beat the regular Cane by 24s, and for every target the Cane lost 4s to the Mach. I’m not feeling the love here.

So please tell me. Which mission did you do, that the Mach did in 1m 3s? I will be waiting in anticipation for my agent to offer it. When he does, rest assured that I’ll have my stop watch handy. I’m dying to see how my new and improved Ferox will do now.

When I mentioned overkill on the Mach before, I meant that if a target only needed 600 dps to be eliminated, the Mach was wasting 400dps. (Keeping it simple by not talking about volley, because some of the volley would be wasted too).

So, let’s see what happens. Depending on when I get those easy missions, I will post the results here or in a new post.

I am so waiting for the Duo of Death.

Have a nice day!

-Kirst.

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#25 - 2015-02-12 13:38:40 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:

Stuff

To answer your question about the 1min 3 sec, that was warp time, not mission time.

To be fair, I knew this was going to be an uphill battle getting through to you as said the use was the issue and not the cost in one of your earlier posts.

Here is the long and short of it. The mach will complete 3s faster than BCs. The only reliable advantage you have with a BC is cost. I would encourage you to actually try the mach even if its on the test server. Alternatively, I believe stoic left a spreadsheet of his clear times that you can compare your ferox to should you feel so inclined.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#26 - 2015-02-13 01:29:11 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:


So please tell me. Which mission did you do, that the Mach did in 1m 3s?


Sevens Prison Facility: 23 seconds

Damsel in Distress: 20 seconds

Break their will: 20 seconds

Retribution: 1:20

Silence the informant 4:18

Smuggler Interception 4:10

Gone Berserk 1:53

Guristas spies 54 seconds

Unauthorized Military Presence 1:43

Rogue Slave Trader 1:24

Downing the Slavers 1:31

Duo of Death 1:08

Seek and Destroy 1:26

Eliminate the Pirate Campers 1:41

Good Word 2:54

Rogue Drone Harassment 2:57

Space Telescope 1:40

Stop the thief 15 seconds

Success comes at a price 31 seconds

Break their will 42 seconds

Mission completion times for said mach.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#27 - 2015-02-13 01:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Baltec

please show some patience.

When I asked that question, I actually was in error, and Grimchaos mentioned that the time of 1m 3s was warp time not mission time.

In itself, really no big deal

Thanks for going thru all that trouble to post all that stuff. You really didn't have to, really. I have Stoics spreadsheet.

I've already done a few L3 missions with the new and improved Ferox, but those missions weren't on Stoics spreadsheet.

However, I just completed Duo of Death, and the results will be coming up shortly.

I see you put the time at 1m 08s.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2015-02-13 01:53:39 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:

However, I just completed Duo of Death, and the results will be coming up shortly.

I see you put the time at 1m 08s.

-Kirst


Warp speed is the more important time and the mach will warp faster than any BC you have. BC will go 2.5au/sec while the mach gets 3au/sec. If you go all out with t2 rigs and high grade implants and hardwiring then you can be pushing into near interceptor like speeds.

You cannot beat the mach in any BC for earnings. Nothing can beat the mach in level 3s.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#29 - 2015-02-13 02:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
OK, the numbers are in.

Stoic, in his Mach, did Duo of Death in 2m 48s. He had a travel time of 1m 35s, so his mission time was 1m 13s.

It's all right there in his spreadsheet.

I had a total mission time of 2m 08s.Shocked However, my travel time was 57s.

It took 29s to warp from the stargate to the mission accel gate, then 19s to get into the room. Once in the room, it took 33s to eliminate the 2 BCs. (it seemed like a long time), then I had to use the MWD to pick up the "special delivery" that is a mission completion requirement. That took another 19s. then warping out took 28s.

My mission time was 1m11s.

Next time, I think I can reduce that time down to 52s, by heading straight toward the BCs as I take them out, because they drop the "special delivery".

The results of one mission is not any proof. So I will work thru the others, and after a few, good or bad, I will post those results too.

-Kirst

Baltec, one more thing, I see you just posted the mission times only. The point of this explained to me was that the Mach could warp to the mission and complete it before I would even get there. Stoic included them, Grimchaos included them, so I will too. So far, it's looking like that is just not true.

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2015-02-13 02:44:11 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:
OK, the numbers are in.

Stoic, in his Mach, did Duo of Death in 2m 48s. He had a travel time of 1m 35s, so his mission time was 1m 13s.

It's all right there in his spreadsheet.

I had a total mission time of 2m 08s.Shocked However, my travel time was 57s.

It took 29s to warp from the stargate to the mission accel gate, then 19s to get into the room. Once in the room, it took 33s to eliminate the 2 BCs. (it seemed like a long time), then I had to use the MWD to pick up the "special delivery" that is a mission completion requirement. That took another 19s. then warping out took 28s.

My mission time was 1m11s.

Next time, I think I can reduce that time down to 52s, by heading straight toward the BCs as I take them out, because they drop the "special delivery".

The results of one mission is not any proof. So I will work thru the others, and after a few, good or bad, I will post those results too.

-Kirst

Baltec, one more thing, I see you just posted the mission times only. The point of this explained to me was that the Mach could warp to the mission and complete it before I would even get there. Stoic included them, Grimchaos included them, so I will too. So far, it's looking like that is just not true.


Post your fit
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#31 - 2015-02-13 12:51:26 UTC
Here is my fit:

I do detect a hint of doubt. It's OK, I expected it.

The fitting is really nothing fancy. In order to "blitz" each mission, the ship can be fitted accordingly. For Duo of Death, I knew i wouldn't need a SB, even though that is my tank. Instead, I fitted a MWD to grab the "special delivery".

Also, to keep things clear and in perspective, I didn't have to travel as far as Stoci did. So there's that for you to scrutinize too.

Each mission will have to be looked at to see what may be needed to blitz them. I've really never blitzed missions with my hair on fire.

The following is the basic setup.

rigs:
3 X warp speed (hyper something, something) (2.5 to 3.9AU/s)

Highs:
7 X 250mm T2 rails (Caldari Antimatter) 647dps, 2.81 cycle time, .042 tracking

Mids:
2 X Tracking Computer II, w/ tracking speed script (I could have just used one for the duo)
LSB (or MWD)
mission specific hardener and amp

Lows:
4 X Federation MFS (the Mach has 3 and one T2)

-Kirst

OK, here's the disclaimer: My alt is running the missions. They have better gunnery skills and a couple of gunnery implants.

One more thing that will happen in all these timed blitzs. Once I warp into a mission, I stop the timer at the point where I can actually target. There is a delay in targeting as you drop out of warp. I record the time it took to warp in, and then I start the timer and start targeting. So I could be losing a second or two here and there. Same thing after I eliminated the Duo, I stopped the timer, recorded the time it took, started the timer and then hit the MWD to grab the special delivery. It would be faster if I didn't have to worry about how long some things took. I think I can get the Duo mission time under 50s.

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Ruvin
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-02-13 15:05:56 UTC
Ion Kirst wrote:
Here is my fit:

much stuff



why are you so stubborn ? i mean each missions has its tier of ships allright . But there are exceptions , this is one of them . You wont be able to beat a mach . Also "mission specific hardeners" . I would add the time of swaping those , as the clicking takes a few seconds , if you chain run missions for isk/standing etc . Swap them on each mission , isnt hard or anything but can be annoying .
I for one got tired of "swaping" so i'm doing stuff in omni tanked ships , not optimal but easier . (with mach not needed)

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#33 - 2015-02-13 15:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Ruvin wrote:
Ion Kirst wrote:
Here is my fit:

much stuff



why are you so stubborn ? i mean each missions has its tier of ships allright . But there are exceptions , this is one of them . You wont be able to beat a mach . Also "mission specific hardeners" . I would add the time of swaping those , as the clicking takes a few seconds , if you chain run missions for isk/standing etc . Swap them on each mission , isnt hard or anything but can be annoying .
I for one got tired of "swaping" so i'm doing stuff in omni tanked ships , not optimal but easier . (with mach not needed)




In order to get a mission, you have to dock. There is plenty of time to swap modules, if needed. Swapping modules is not the issue.

Nothing was ever said about "chaining" missions. It's one mission at a time, so the time it takes to talk to an agent, accept the mission, head back out, was not originally in this process. There could even be a mission two or three gates away. For cryin' out loud quit trying to twist it.

Anyway, FYI, I said "mission specific hardner" is because I'm at work, and I couldn't remember the modules exact name. Same for the rigs, it was a "warp, something, something".

Thanks anyway.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#34 - 2015-02-13 16:43:17 UTC
@Ion Kirst

Imma get in on this and post some times if need be but probably won't be able to til sometime next week.

I do want to confirm a few things though to help ensure a similar comparison can be made.

What hardwiring and implants (if any) are u using?
What faction was your duo of death against?
What faction were you doing missions for?
In the your fit, are your warp speed rigs t1 or t2?
Ruvin
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-02-13 16:55:53 UTC
Guys for the sake of the science ,
Can any of you test the same exact thing with a confessor ? Or it doesnt even stand a chance ?

I wana grind some lvl 3 missions for standing . And love the confessor , not sure how good it is tho in PVE .

If anyone has any experience pls do share )

thank you

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#36 - 2015-02-13 21:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
chaosgrimm wrote:
@Ion Kirst

Imma get in on this and post some times if need be but probably won't be able to til sometime next week.

I do want to confirm a few things though to help ensure a similar comparison can be made.

What hardwiring and implants (if any) are u using?
What faction was your duo of death against?
What faction were you doing missions for?
In the your fit, are your warp speed rigs t1 or t2?



Yeah! I am so glad you are going to do this.

I am not making any of this up. I'm trying to be upfront and straight forward as I possibly can. I expect you to get the same results as I.

The important gunnery skill are at L5: Controlled Bursts, Gunnery, Med Hybrid Turret, Motion Pred., Rapid Firing, Sharpshooter, Surgical Strike, Traj. Analysis, Weapons Upgrade, and Advanced Weapons Upgrade.
Medium Railgun Spec. is at L4.

Implants: MR 703, Gunslinger Motion Pred, MH 805 Deadeye Med Hybrid Turret, and RF 903 Lancer Gunnery.

Faction was Guristas, out of Corp Police Force in Caldari Space.

The warp speed rigs are only T1 - Hyperspatial Velocty Optimizers
(the T2 are only 20M each, but I won't get them now, I don't think the Mach has T2 rigs, so I won't either).

-Kirst

I guess to be fair in all this, I should get a Mach. But this is all a work in progress.

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#37 - 2015-02-14 00:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
So I got a bit of time to play today, and figured i'd jot down some results, these were single attempts (not best out of x) and these were run as blitzes on the test server. I didnt have long to play but expect more sometime next week if need be.

First, here is the fit I was using:
[Machariel, New Setup 1]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Reactor Control Unit II
Tracking Enhancer II
Signal Amplifier II
Inertial Stabilizers II

Tracking Computer II, both scripts
Tracking Computer II, both scripts
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

No implants.

I was accepting multiple missions at a time and wasnt testing ferox warp speed against it so i dont really have a number to compare the warp speed differences to (will be something for next week); however, this fit has better aligntime, warpspeed, and locktime than the proposed ferox.

Here are my complete times. These numbers reflect the time it took from exiting warp when landing in the mission pocket, to the time the mission was registered completed (green checkmark). These were my only attempts. I just pulled 3 out of that caldari station in Suroken that has three L3 agents.

Seven's Prison Facility:
11 sec
This was done within a single turret rack cycle. So essentially, this 11 seconds was just a measure of how quickly i could pick the important targets from the overview + activate turrets after they were locked.

Seek and Destroy (guristas):
28 sec (start time is once out of warp inside the mission pocket i.e. after the acceleration gate)

damsel in destress:
9 sec (single rack cycle)

Was hoping to get duo of death but that will need to wait til next week unfortunately.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#38 - 2015-02-14 02:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Impressive, you've even beaten Stoic's times. In Seek and Destroy you beat him by almost a whole minute! (that is not sarcasm)

However, I thought we were using Stoics setup. It's OK, fix it up as you like.

I see what you did there. With over 12000 damage volley with those 1400s, you should take out everything with one shot. Still 16sec is a long wait between shots. My 250s cycle at 2.8sec. If you have multiple targets, that may not work out so good, or have you split your guns up? (duh, of course you did. In S & D, 28sec is very fast for 4 targets with 1400s, and using drones may take to long.)


Well, you set some new bench marks.

I'm thinking now, with what you have done, and the few seconds it's taking to blitz these missions, that I probably don't even need a tank. I can fit another mod to help apply damage. I won't keep it a secret, I will tell you if I change anything. I think I can get my targeting time on Cruisers down to 3.3 sec. On Cruisers I also won't need tracking speed so I can switch those up for range.

Also, I just want to make sure of the blitzs in those 3 missions.

In Seven's prison, just take out the two named cruisers. (no problem, they go down very fast)

Seek and Destroy, destroy group 2 which consists of 3 frigates and one BC. ( I find that I'm hitting the fire button once the target is gone, and I end up waiting the rest of the cycle time to fire again) 28 sec seems doable.

Damsel in Distress, Destroy the Hub, grab the girl. Burn to the hub while everything is firing. Piece of cake. 9sec, I can't make any mistakes.

This is all good to me. I'm finally have a little fun in the game again.

Are you using a stop watch?

-Kirst

Lets start a new thread, we've hi-jacked this one too long.

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2015-02-14 04:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ion Kirst wrote:
Impressive, you've even beaten Stoic's times. In Seek and Destroy you beat him by almost a whole minute! (that is not sarcasm)

However, I thought we were using Stoics setup. It's OK, fix it up as you like.

I see what you did there. With over 12000 damage volley with those 1400s, you should take out everything with one shot. Still 16sec is a long wait between shots. My 250s cycle at 2.8sec. If you have multiple targets, that may not work out so good, or have you split your guns up? (duh, of course you did. In S & D, 28sec is very fast for 4 targets with 1400s, and using drones may take to long.)


Well, you set some new bench marks.

I'm thinking now, with what you have done, and the few seconds it's taking to blitz these missions, that I probably don't even need a tank. I can fit another mod to help apply damage. I won't keep it a secret, I will tell you if I change anything. I think I can get my targeting time on Cruisers down to 3.3 sec. On Cruisers I also won't need tracking speed so I can switch those up for range.

Also, I just want to make sure of the blitzs in those 3 missions.

In Seven's prison, just take out the two named cruisers. (no problem, they go down very fast)

Seek and Destroy, destroy group 2 which consists of 3 frigates and one BC. ( I find that I'm hitting the fire button once the target is gone, and I end up waiting the rest of the cycle time to fire again) 28 sec seems doable.

Damsel in Distress, Destroy the Hub, grab the girl. Burn to the hub while everything is firing. Piece of cake. 9sec, I can't make any mistakes.

This is all good to me. I'm finally have a little fun in the game again.

Are you using a stop watch?

-Kirst

Lets start a new thread, we've hi-jacked this one too long.


nah keep this going, the op is getting info he needs.

With arty you can split the guns and alpha multiple targets. As a side note the mach I use for level 4 missions gets 8.23 AU/sec.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#40 - 2015-02-14 22:11:08 UTC
Baltec,

8.23AU/s! For L4s. And why would you want to do that?

Show fit.


I'm sure you know the Physics behind warping, but maybe some people don't.

Depending on the ship, it's capabilities, it's rigs, modules, implants etc., there can be different align times and warp speeds.

Earlier today I did some time trials on my Ferox. I've timed some key spots in a ship's warp from start to finish.

There are a few things to consider: Align time, time to max warp, time in max warp, and the time to drop out of warp and stop.

Time trials went back and forth between two gates that were 21.5AU apart.

Align time: 8.5 sec
time to max warp: 6.5 sec
time in warp: 4.3 sec
time to slow down and stop: 17 sec.

Total time: 36.3 sec

(some of the times varied by a couple of tenths, but these numbers are fine, as I even had a total of 35.8 once)

I don't know any comparable times for a Mach, but in Chaosgrimms Mach, according to EFT, his align time is 10.4 sec. If that is different please verify with in game stat. His actual warp speed is 4.7AU. (if I give him T2 rigs, and three warp accelerators in the lows, the best shown was 6.5AU/s.

The same physics to get a mass moving, also comes into play to slow it down. In some short distances, a ship may never even reach full warp speed.

Just food for thought.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.