These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Opinion Poll: What is/should be the purpose of Wardecs

First post
Author
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1 - 2015-01-29 18:20:20 UTC
First off:
I'm looking for opinions, not discussion, at this time. Please, don't argue with someone's opinion that you disagree with. Just state your own, and preferably why you have it.




What is, or what should be, the purpose of Wardecs in EVE Online?

An Example:

Wardecs exist to allow a corporation to force another corporation to give up 'valuable' space, so that moons or POCOs can be claimed, for economic benefit.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Darkblad
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-01-29 18:35:42 UTC
- Territorial Control, like removal of POS, POCO to anchor my own or on behalf of someone who wants to
- Psychological Warfare. Freeze the target's actions. Keep them docked/logged off.
- Good fights, be it with opponents or friends (RvB style)
- Revenge
- "That guy just annoys me, I'll dec him"

NPEISDRIP

ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#3 - 2015-01-29 18:37:48 UTC
I like the current war-dec system to an extent. It does put pressure on corps and alliances when they are war-decced but most groups are able to use alts to get around the majority of the "trouble". It does provide pressure for people to have alts, but that is good for CCP.

I would however feel it appropriate for the cost of war-decs to increase based on the number you have running already. To be able to war-dec half of New Eden without any scaling of cost does seem a bit broken.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2015-01-29 18:50:36 UTC
Wars should be based on anything a person wants it to be.


"Why" anyone does anything is going to be entirely subjective. One player's "pointless gameplay" is another player's "content."

You can't pigeonhole something so abstract into nicely defined categories. Even SOV warfare isn't always about SOV.
Seamus Donohue
EVE University
Ivy League
#5 - 2015-01-29 18:51:44 UTC
* Territorial control
* Corp/Alliance vs. Corp/Alliance mutual duels

From the HighSec Carebear perspective, War Declarations are a major disadvantage to being part of a corporation, so there's no reason to join a corporation except for the removal of the 11% tax and running starbases.

This is my personal opinion and not the official opinion of EVE University.

Survivor of Teskanen.  Fan of John Rourke.

I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#6 - 2015-01-29 18:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
I agree with what has been said above me, and that wardecs are not too broken.

BUT. Leaving aside the theoretical PvP driver that wars are, the reality from our BRAVE perspective is that wars are just an annoyance: New people get ganked, vets avoid it with ease, and war deccers always dock-up when we try to mount any form of tangible resistance.

I'm not asking for them to suicide into us, but you have to admit that the system could be improved... Because currently, no good fight comes out of it, just slaughter of the most clueless players in our ranks. Its good for teaching them basic survival in high, its not good to anything else.

Maybe give the war deccer some form of extended weapon timer when attacking a war target, I don't know. Straight
And without a doubt, make the cost of multiple wardecs exponential.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#7 - 2015-01-29 19:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
WD's are a nuisance, nothing else. I don't think a wardec should be needed to shoot assets in space, like POCOs or towers, just give a suspect timer and let people defend their precious blueprints. WD's fill the role of legitimazing aggression, when that aggression should be legal in the first place without a WD. Leave it primarily as a ship-to-ship tool.

As for the mechanics itself, weapons timer should be engaged on both aggressor and the target in hisec only to discourage undock camping, you can just undock a cheap tackel and force a timer on the camper to keep them there and undock big things to blap it.

Why not turn WD's into a bigger ISK sink with bribing CONCORD both ways, highest bidder decides if the official stamps "VALID WARDEC" ot "INVALID" on the papers, payments on same frequency.
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#8 - 2015-01-29 20:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelduum Revaan
What they are:
1. The perfect mechanic to gank new players, small groups of new players, and those not paying attention (which would be their own fault) without pesky criminal flags.
2. The precise reason to not be in a player corporation with more than a couple of characters if you spend a significant amount of your time in HiSec.
3. The mechanic to move/remove someone else's personal or corporate industrial production (as anyone paying attention would pull down or abandon any towers or POCOs in HiSec at risk).
4. A minor inconvenience to any moderately experienced player.

What they should be:
1. A method that sanctions fights between two roughly equally matched (not size, but capability) parties without NPC intervention.
Galaximo
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-01-30 01:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Galaximo
Being a high-sec player I've found the war decs that I've been in to basically stop my usual gameplay. I can't play the EVE I want to play. Instead we have to tip toe around high sec praying that a small gang is not hunting us down. Or use alts, which removes a lot of the cooperative gameplay that is the point of being in a corporation.

Trying to hunt them is usually a useless endeavor because the war deccers are experienced PVPers who dont fight a fair fight and will dock up at the first sign you could take them out. We've tracked down their mains in some cases, the deccing characters typically seem to be alts, and as soon as you fleet up to fight them properly they sign out and sign in as their mains.

The corps I've been in have not been heavily PVP focused so we are ill-equipped to fight back, and furthermore not really that interested in fighting back. The corps that dec us seem to obviously pick on high sec corps who are ill-equipped to fight back. Corporation names such as "WarDec U" lead me to believe that, in addition to their war history consisting of mainly high-sec mining corps.

I've left the game twice due to this. It becomes very frustrating when I can't do the activities I would like to and I basically don't play much during a dec. I can put up with an occasional war dec, but sometimes they happen one after another after another.

It would be nice to join a corporation such as EVE-UNI, but that's basically signing up to never fly safely in "high-sec" because they are constantly at war. It's a shame because I really like what they provide to the community.

That has been my personal perspective on war decs. There may be uses for war decs that serve as fun gameplay, but I haven't seen any in my time in EVE.

I would like to see a way for the defenders to get out of a war dec. The earlier suggestion of being able to out bid the opposition seems like it could help. It could become expensive though if you are decced a lot.

Another option is to remove them entirely. I wouldn't miss war decs if they were removed from the game. I'd be happy to see them go and would quickly join a corp once they were removed.

Another option is mutual wars, ie. both parties have to agree to go to war. Paying CONCORD wouldn't even be involved. It would work like the duel system. This system obviously has some short comings (any war could be dismissed), but it would remove the very one-sided wars that I've encountered while still allowing for wars to occur. I would bet that this would make for fun wars as opposed to annoying wars.

Also, I never understood why war decs happen in a minimum one week length. If the war is over, its over.

EDIT: Realized I didn't explicitly answer the OP's question.
Wars are: a big annoyance (in my case)
Wars should be: fun gameplay
Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
#10 - 2015-01-30 01:23:00 UTC
Based on your track record, Steve, I suspect you are just looking for us to help you to lobby for heavy handed nerfs to the current wardec system. I won't help you there, but I will answer your question.

The short answer is what you should expect in a sandbox game - the purpose of wardecs is whatever the players involved want it to be. Any changes made to the mechanics should be made with this principle in mind. The more that mechanics dictate objectives or limit conditions of war, the less freedom players will have to create their own content.

If you get down to specifics, though, wars are declared for a short list of purposes. A few examples-

1. Kelduum's ideal - goodfights between equally matched organizations without NPC interference. At this, the current mechanics succeed admirably, as we can see from RvB, or fun wars that have been fought between RvB and Ivy, or Marmite vs. PoH, or countless other examples. This is an excellent use of the wardec mechanics as they currently exist.

2. Killing noncombatants for fun and profit. A lot of empire wars boil down to this, although their justifications vary considerably (revenge wars, wars fought in hopes of securing a ransom payment, RP reasons like the Code, pure "grief" wars declared just to be a ****, etc.) There is absolutely nothing wrong with fighting wars for this purpose. The current mechanics support this activity moderately well. The frustrations for the aggressor with this objective are the price of wardec fees, which limits the number of targets that smaller, poorer corps can afford, and the ease with which the defenders can evade the wardec. For the defending side the frustration is that they are usually fighting against more experienced PvPers, but again, that is balanced by evasion mechanics- they can opt out of the war when they choose. Defenders can also have free allies.

3. Asymmetric warfare. Current wardec mechanics offer great opportunities for small aggressions corps to inflict disproportionate damage on a large defending corp. This is the reason why so many people in Brave and Ivy find them so annoying. From the other side though, it's a lot of fun to go up against a group much larger than your own and use guerrilla tactics and your mastery of highsec mechanics to get many and valuable kills. This is a great argument in favor of wardecs. The frustration here is that the current price structure oddly discourages this. It is actually more expensive to wardec larger organizations, when common sense would seem to tell us that the opposite should be the case.

4. Removal of structures. This is straightforward enough. However, there isn't much incentive to actually do this in highsec. POCOs are virtually worthless for non-industrialists and POSes are rarely worth killing in the absence of something like moongoo. This is an area for improvement in the current system. The wars themselves work fine, but we need more and better things to fight over - there should be real advantages to be gained from taking and holding structures or territory. However, wardecs should never be limited to that sort of thing - that's what nullsec and wormholes are for.

So what it comes down to is this- wardecs are pretty good as is. The mechanics could be tweaked, but don't need an overhaul. Better to work on related mechanics like the corporation system or structures if you want to improve the quality of wars - give us the tools and we'll make the content ourselves.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#11 - 2015-01-30 03:44:59 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
- Territorial Control, like removal of POS, POCO to anchor my own or on behalf of someone who wants to
- Psychological Warfare. Freeze the target's actions. Keep them docked/logged off.
- Good fights, be it with opponents or friends (RvB style)
- Revenge
- "That guy just annoys me, I'll dec him"

All of those plus:
- Monetary gain, decking (or paying mercs to dec) an industrial competitor.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Titus Tallang
EVE University
Ivy League
#12 - 2015-01-30 10:29:14 UTC
They are fine.

No, really. I feel that from a design standpoint, wardecs are an interesting and unique (read: abusable) mechanic in the pool of interesting and unique mechanics that make up highsec, and part of what makes highsec such a mechanically complex (read: compelling and intriguing) place to fight in.

Does the current wardec system promote use of OOC alts? Sure.
Does the current wardec system promote people playing station games? Sure.
Do I see an issue with the above? No. Abusing game mechanics and alts to your advantage has been part of the game since its inception, and I see absolutely no issue with it. If preparation, investing assets and planning does not give you a decisive homefield advantage, then this wouldn't be EVE. As players, setting up the board in a way that guarantees us victory is what we do.


tl;dr Wardecs are just fine, I see no reason to change anything about them.


Disclaimer, personal opinion, not the opinion of E-UNI, etc.

Director of Education - EVE University - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/

Black Pedro
Mine.
#13 - 2015-01-30 18:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Steve Ronuken wrote:

What is, or what should be, the purpose of Wardecs in EVE Online?

In Eve, the basic competitive unit of this game is the corporation. It is, or at least should be, the basic way players group together in order to compete with each other in this competitive sandbox in which we all live. Therefore, the wardec should simply be a tool for you to disrupt your competitors economically whether that be through forcing them to spend resources to defend themselves, alter their ISK making activities or enabling direct PvP combat. Ideally, it would generate good fights between opponents, but that is secondary to the ability of one corporation to affect the operations of another.

Now, related to this is that some players form a corporation but really don't want to compete with other players. This is why we need a social corp so those that just want to mission or mine with friends can do so without fear of a wardec. But these corps, whatever form they take must be significantly worse than a real player corp, like NPC corps now. In fact, player corps should be buffed more with persistent bonuses for members so that the difference is even greater. There should be strong disincentive to stay in a social corp if you are actually trying to economically compete with other corporations in the game. Your mining, industry and mission/incursion rewards should be much less than a group that has decided to take responsiblility for thier own protection.

So, wardecs should be a tool by which one corporation can force (that is non-consensual) action upon a competitor corporation and should not be trivially dodged or ended by the targeted group. There should also be alternative organizations (like the current NPC corp) so social groups can form immune to this but that are much worse in terms of income potential so that risk vs. reward is respected.
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#14 - 2015-01-31 03:21:00 UTC
I think the purpose of wardecs should be to provide stories to scare newbies, but actual instances of joe schmoe tiny insignificant mining corps being 'decced should be relatively uncommon. It's too cheap as is, plenty of folks out there making bank off of wardecs that frequently yield no kills, just because it costs so little to declare.

Also need em for corps that just want to fight, like red vs blue. I assume it's free if the other corp agrees, as it should be.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#15 - 2015-01-31 03:44:12 UTC
The purpose of wardecs is simple.

To pay a fee to eliminate the presence of CONCORD from highsec combat.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#16 - 2015-01-31 05:02:05 UTC
Wardecs are a silly mechanic used primarily to explode new players who think they're safe because highsec.

New players or people dumb enough to engage in carebear activities while decked get agent located, neutral scouted, and then ganked with overwhelming force by toons specifically designed for highsec WT ganking.

Veterans use NPC corp alts and so wardecs are for them a non-issue.

Wardecs incentivize keeping your highsec carebearing toons in NPC corps, thats really all.

Force people out of NPC corps and highsec just becomes FW space. And a bunch of people quit.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#17 - 2015-01-31 05:29:19 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
- Territorial Control, like removal of POS, POCO to anchor my own or on behalf of someone who wants to
- Psychological Warfare. Freeze the target's actions. Keep them docked/ logged off.
- Good fights, be it with opponents or friends (RvB style)
- Revenge
- "That guy just annoys me, I'll dec him"
Clearing out the system you call home so your corp can harvest all the resources.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tora Bushido
G0P-ST0P
P I R A T
#18 - 2015-01-31 14:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tora Bushido
* Profit
* Revenge
* Grieving (for flying a Drake).
* Fun
* Creating market for mercenaries.
* Destroying ships and modules, so the industrials can sell more.
* High-sec denial for alliances (we often get hired by WH alliances to do so).
* Kill the competition (yes, again the evil industrialists who hire us for this).
* For flying a Drake again !
* Denying access to trade hubs (again for the evil industrialists who hire us).
* CCP Isk sink (sell more plex that way)

But in most cases, wars are about making isks, just as the industrials, PvE, Incursion runners, etc etc etc do..

Wars aren't the 'problem', evil industrials who hire us are the 'problem'.

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#19 - 2015-01-31 20:32:05 UTC
The purpose of a wardec should be whatever I want it to be, from "I don't like your face" to "you're running for CSM and this is our way of showing the love".

The real problem with wardecs is people, and you can't patch cowardice any more than you can patch stupid. Just look at people already crying in this thread for "fair" fights. They want to play not-Eve and any real fix to wardecs involves not catering to those people.

Something that I've recently noticed *does* need fixing, however, is that if I wardec you thinking you're going to be an easy target and you then turn round and slap me in the face by making it mutual, I shouldn't be able to instantly weasel out of the war to avoid embarrassment.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Iain Cariaba
#20 - 2015-02-01 19:23:06 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
What is, or what should be, the purpose of Wardecs in EVE Online?

Because I can. I need no other reason, nor should I.
12Next page