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Crime & Punishment

 
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End of the Awoxer? Is eve getting too soft?
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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#81 - 2015-01-31 11:20:25 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

The difference between me and carebears is


Everyone is a carebear, the guys pointing at others, are usualy the biggest.
Bear

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-01-31 11:35:15 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

The difference between me and carebears is


Everyone is a carebear, the guys pointing at others, are usualy the biggest.
Bear
Your definition of carebear must be incredibly warped.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#83 - 2015-01-31 11:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Personally I think the threat of awoxing is just counterproductive to the promotion of what eve is all about: community.

If you're so worried as a recruiter that you simply cannot recruit x person because of the threat of an awox then you limit your choices immensely and you miss out on potentially great corp members.

The high end corporate espionage should and will exist, that requires effort and months, even years, of planning.

But joining a corp and then shooting someone requires little to no effort, thus should be removed to encourage community.

So awoxing is this big great danger to recruitment, but war spies aren't?


war spies you cant stop with mechanics, awoxing you can.


So we should consider the validity of gameplay elements based on whether or not they're mechanical in nature, and not by their effects? Let's see, this will be a bit arbitrary, but bear with me:

Awoxing: performed by a relatively small amount of players, responsible for <1% of kills in high-sec, prevents new players from joining corporations due to mistrust to a low/moderate degree.

Wars: performed by a relatively small amount of players, responsible for maybe ~50% of kills in high-sec, prevent new and old players from joining corporations due to mistrust to a very significant degree, both due to spying, and due to violence.

CCP's reasoning for removing awoxing is prevention of new players from joining corporations due to mistrust. CCP and the community think that few people would be "negatively" affected by this change.

And yet, they aren't removing wars, despite the fact that the reason applied to the removal of awoxing is much more applicable to wars.

Why?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2015-01-31 13:18:33 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
CCP's reasoning for removing awoxing is prevention of new players from joining corporations due to mistrust. CCP and the community think that few people would be "negatively" affected by this change.

And yet, they aren't removing wars, despite the fact that the reason applied to the removal of awoxing is much more applicable to wars.

Why?


Awoxing isn't removed, it's just limited to the time between when you start killing and a director or CEO comes online and flips the CONCORD switch.

Also, CCP did change war mechanics in allowing allies to join.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#85 - 2015-01-31 14:30:06 UTC
Drez Arthie wrote:
Awoxing isn't removed, it's just limited to the time between when you start killing and a director or CEO comes online and flips the CONCORD switch.

The switch will be on by default, and there will be a 24-hour corp-wide notification/cooldown period when it's flipped on. It's not removed, it's just marginalized to such an extent that this specific method of doing it will be negated.

Drez Arthie wrote:
Also, CCP did change war mechanics in allowing allies to join.

And?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-01-31 15:27:13 UTC
how would you fix wars?

Fix for awoxing is an easy one, just because of the magnitude of what it fixes is small doesn't mean it's insignificant.

Art of Explosions
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#87 - 2015-01-31 15:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
how would you fix wars?
That's an entirely different topic, and a contentious one at that.

Quote:
Fix for awoxing is an easy one, just because of the magnitude of what it fixes is small doesn't mean it's insignificant.
You're right the fix for awoxing is easy, be careful who you recruit, background check them thoroughly and don't give them roles straight off the bat.

None of the recruiters that fell victim to Psychotic Monks awoxing shenanigans noticed that the alts he was using had an easily accessible history of killing corp mates, a string of medals with apt and pithy titles extorted from previous corps prior to leaving or the clear references to awoxing in their bio's.

It didn't need CCP to add a switch to turn intracorp aggression in hisec on and off.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Orlacc
#88 - 2015-01-31 15:53:31 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

The difference between me and carebears is


Everyone is a carebear, the guys pointing at others, are usualy the biggest.
Bear
Your definition of carebear must be incredibly warped.



Yes indeed. As someone who was already old when the term began to be used, it means PVE folks who are risk averse and certainly are against any form of PvP. Many have names like Moonrise Swordmaker or such. Many in RL wear Birkenstocks with socks.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#89 - 2015-01-31 15:59:15 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

The difference between me and carebears is


Everyone is a carebear, the guys pointing at others, are usualy the biggest.
Bear
Your definition of carebear must be incredibly warped.



Yes indeed. As someone who was already old when the term began to be used, it means PVE folks who are risk averse and certainly are against any form of PvP. Many have names like Moonrise Swordmaker or such. Many in RL wear Birkenstocks with socks.
Sandals and socks? That's a fashion faux-pas unless you're old enough to claim a pension.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2015-01-31 16:04:39 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

The [corp CONCORD] switch will be on by default, and there will be a 24-hour corp-wide notification/cooldown period when it's flipped on. It's not removed, it's just marginalized to such an extent that this specific method of doing it will be negated.


Well then develop new methods. Isn't player innovation what makes EVE interesting?
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#91 - 2015-01-31 16:06:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Drez Arthie wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

The [corp CONCORD] switch will be on by default, and there will be a 24-hour corp-wide notification/cooldown period when it's flipped on. It's not removed, it's just marginalized to such an extent that this specific method of doing it will be negated.


Well then develop new methods. Isn't player innovation what makes EVE interesting?
They will, and then the people who fall prey to their new methods will demand that CCP nerf those into oblivion too, instead of developing new methods to prevent it from happening themselves.

The circle of life continues.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2015-01-31 16:37:11 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
how would you fix wars?
That's an entirely different topic, and a contentious one at that.

Quote:
Fix for awoxing is an easy one, just because of the magnitude of what it fixes is small doesn't mean it's insignificant.
You're right the fix for awoxing is easy, be careful who you recruit, background check them thoroughly and don't give them roles straight off the bat.

None of the recruiters that fell victim to Psychotic Monks awoxing shenanigans noticed that the alts he was using had an easily accessible history of killing corp mates, a string of medals with apt and pithy titles extorted from previous corps prior to leaving or the clear references to awoxing in their bio's.

It didn't need CCP to add a switch to turn intracorp aggression in hisec on and off.


I only mentioned wars because the person I was responding to used it as some form of argument

And what you just said is not easy, it's time consuming and someone will have to actually do that.

If you just have a button to flip to prevent awoxing, you skip that entire process and it's far more likely you get someone who just wants to join the corp for legitimate reasons (or someone going for the long haul)

Art of Explosions
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-01-31 16:51:55 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Personally I think the threat of awoxing is just counterproductive to the promotion of what eve is all about: community.

If you're so worried as a recruiter that you simply cannot recruit x person because of the threat of an awox then you limit your choices immensely and you miss out on potentially great corp members.

The high end corporate espionage should and will exist, that requires effort and months, even years, of planning.

But joining a corp and then shooting someone requires little to no effort, thus should be removed to encourage community.


Little to no effort on the person joining the corp, yes. But if the person who recruits, puts in a little effort he can, 9 times out of 10, know if the person is an Awoxer or not. Its actually really easy.

If youre lazy, youre gonna have a higher chance of allowing awoxers in. And thats what Eve is all about, too. Risk vs Reward. Effort vs payout. If youre so worried as a pilot of losing your ship that you simply cannot even undock, then you also limit your choices immensly and you miss out on everything this game has to offer. And yet this game isnt about handholding people like that. There has always been a level of risk associated with the amount of effort, you put into the game.

The ability to remove awoxing with no risk, no payment, no downside, is nothing more than increasing reward with absolutely no cost. Thats not what Eves about.

But the fact of the matter is, you create a stronger community if you have a higher level of trust. And if someone doesnt attack you in your expensive ship, even if he can, that level of trust is far higher.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#94 - 2015-01-31 18:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
And what you just said is not easy, it's time consuming and someone will have to actually do that.
Which is exactly what a recruiter is meant to do.
How hard is to it look on a killboard for an applicants kill history?
How hard is it to run their API through a 3rd party tool like API Jack-knife and look for red flags?

Quote:
If you just have a button to flip to prevent awoxing, you skip that entire process and it's far more likely you get someone who just wants to join the corp for legitimate reasons (or someone going for the long haul)
Stealing stuff or padding killboards with green on green kills is as legitimate reason as any to join a corp Twisted

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#95 - 2015-01-31 18:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
how would you fix wars?

Very easy: a toggle switch with a 24-hour advance notification notice (off by default) that turns on/turns off the reception of wars.

Corporations aren't recruiting new players because they could be war spies (and trust me, they often are; I've infiltrated almost every entity I ever declared on). We should be consistent, should we not?

Just like the change to awoxing, this change would only negatively affect a small amount of players compared to those it would affect positively. And besides, if you want to declare war on someone, nothing is stopping you from joining the corporation, acquiring director rights, turning the switch on, and then doing it. It's not like wars are actually going to be removed or anything; it will now just require effort on the part of the aggressors. Declaring war will still be very much possible.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2015-01-31 18:47:33 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Personally I think the threat of awoxing is just counterproductive to the promotion of what eve is all about: community.

If you're so worried as a recruiter that you simply cannot recruit x person because of the threat of an awox then you limit your choices immensely and you miss out on potentially great corp members.

The high end corporate espionage should and will exist, that requires effort and months, even years, of planning.

But joining a corp and then shooting someone requires little to no effort, thus should be removed to encourage community.


I'm almost on the opposite side of this. The easier it is to destroy someone else in this game, the more meaningful it is if you choose not to do so. I think that is what builds the sense of community in this game, not some arbitrary promise of safety written into some computer code.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-01-31 20:56:12 UTC
You all have good points, in the end awoxing doesn't affect me as I will never fly anything I cannot afford to replace.

Art of Explosions
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-01-31 22:00:24 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
how would you fix wars?

Very easy: a toggle switch with a 24-hour advance notification notice (off by default) that turns on/turns off the reception of wars.

Corporations aren't recruiting new players because they could be war spies (and trust me, they often are; I've infiltrated almost every entity I ever declared on). We should be consistent, should we not?

Just like the change to awoxing, this change would only negatively affect a small amount of players compared to those it would affect positively. And besides, if you want to declare war on someone, nothing is stopping you from joining the corporation, acquiring director rights, turning the switch on, and then doing it. It's not like wars are actually going to be removed or anything; it will now just require effort on the part of the aggressors. Declaring war will still be very much possible.


Thats the most idiotic thing ive ever heard. Non-consentual wardecs was a reason that a CCP dev gave with regards to why they think removing AWOX would not impact the game that much. I do hope youre joking.

Thats kinda like saying "Non-consensual PVP in hisec should be a toggle switch with a 24 hour advance notification notice, that will prevent any ship from locking on and firing at you, at all. This change would only negatively affect a small amount of players compared to those it would positively affect, and besides, if you want to kill someone in highsec, nothing is stopping you from breaking into the persons house, logging onto his eve account while hes asleep, turning the switch on, and then ganking them. Its not like ganks will be removed or anything, it will now just require effort on the part of the gankers".
Vector Symian
0 Fear
#99 - 2015-02-01 05:26:25 UTC
Give it ten minutes awoxers will find a way

It is what they are good at
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#100 - 2015-02-01 05:57:06 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Thats the most idiotic thing ive ever heard. Non-consentual wardecs was a reason that a CCP dev gave with regards to why they think removing AWOX would not impact the game that much. I do hope youre joking.

One could also say that awoxing is a good reason to give with regards to why removing wars would not impact the game that much.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted