These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

End of the Awoxer? Is eve getting too soft?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#381 - 2015-02-10 09:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Black Pedro wrote:
I am not sure why people have difficulty with this concept although I guess in many cases, you cannot put a face to the other player that you just grabbed an exploration site before, or undercut on the market so people have trouble. But for ganking, it is direct ship-to-ship combat between players so it glaringly obvious it is PvP. It is a classic PvP scenario where one player want to get safely from A to B while the others want to stop them and take their stuff. Doesn't get much more obviously PvP than that.
Many people don't have an issue with that, what they have an issue with is that it's mixed style of PvP. Like how there would be an issue if you were using the market and someone used some kind of market laser to destroy your products.

Freighters are insanely passive. You have to preemptively take steps with route, fittings and cargo, then when engaged you are at the mercy of the gankers. The gankers get to play actively while the hauler gets to sit there and wait it out. From a gameplay point of view that's bad design. Generally active PvP is played against active, passive PvP is played against passive. You get anti-gankers who try to stop it, which is of course the active counter to gankers, but it's so unbalanced that anti-gankers are a joke rather than a serious threat. So what you have is an overpowered form of active PvP being used against a group where the only counters are passive.

As it stand right now, it's killboard green for gankers to kill an empty freighter regardless of fit and takes only 1 player with any semblance of skill. Everyone else needs to be nothing more than an F1 monkey.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#382 - 2015-02-10 09:53:02 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
well all the examples you have just said above are an issue because you have described pvp as being competition between 2 players within the same activity (which is pvp obviously), ganking is not direct ship to ship combat because the freighter is not involved nor can participate in combat, its 1 sided combat ie player killing/ganking. what you are saying is ship spinning is also pvp because your avoiding people by spinning a ship and not undocking

Ship spinning by itself is not PvP, although if you use undocking to deny a sure kill to an opponent I would argue that that is part of your PvP contest.

Ganking is by definition ship-to-ship combat. One ship targets another, activates weapons and one ship is destroyed. Just like targeting a shuttle or a pod, activating weapons and destroying it is PvP. It's different as in players is trying to escape while one player is trying to kill, but it is definitely PvP as both players have different objectives (one wants to not explode, one wants them to explode). There are also two different outcomes - one the industrial ship escapes and delivers its cargo intact, one it gets destroyed. This is all PvP - two players competing for a different outcome in a game.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#383 - 2015-02-10 10:26:38 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
well all the examples you have just said above are an issue because you have described pvp as being competition between 2 players within the same activity (which is pvp obviously), ganking is not direct ship to ship combat because the freighter is not involved nor can participate in combat, its 1 sided combat ie player killing/ganking. what you are saying is ship spinning is also pvp because your avoiding people by spinning a ship and not undocking

Ship spinning by itself is not PvP, although if you use undocking to deny a sure kill to an opponent I would argue that that is part of your PvP contest.

Ganking is by definition ship-to-ship combat. One ship targets another, activates weapons and one ship is destroyed. Just like targeting a shuttle or a pod, activating weapons and destroying it is PvP. It's different as in players is trying to escape while one player is trying to kill, but it is definitely PvP as both players have different objectives (one wants to not explode, one wants them to explode). There are also two different outcomes - one the industrial ship escapes and delivers its cargo intact, one it gets destroyed. This is all PvP - two players competing for a different outcome in a game.


Ship spinning is PvP if you are logged in to waste someone else's time like I am now, I have a war dec and I have someone trying to gather intel on me, so I sit in station to annoy them while my other character is being chased by angry Russians in a WH. So the war deccers have me as online on their watch list and might waste their time to see what I am up to or send someone to check me out while the intel gatherer can only sit in station going, does he even play. Eve PvP at its finest, if I keep this up I could graduate to AFK cloaky camping and then I will be super leet...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#384 - 2015-02-10 10:27:46 UTC
ganking by definition is gang killing or player killing where a killer has a significant advantage over his victim, ie being part of a group, being higher sp, or attacking the victim while they are at low health (whoring?), or in this case shooting a player who has no guns

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#385 - 2015-02-10 10:41:03 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
ganking by definition is gang killing or player killing where a killer has a significant advantage over his victim, ie being part of a group, being higher sp, or attacking the victim while they are at low health (whoring?), or in this case shooting a player who has no guns


None of which contradicts the definition of PvP. You should also remember that there are no victims of suicide ganking, just willing volunteers.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#386 - 2015-02-10 10:46:46 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
ganking by definition is gang killing or player killing where a killer has a significant advantage over his victim, ie being part of a group, being higher sp, or attacking the victim while they are at low health (whoring?), or in this case shooting a player who has no guns


None of which contradicts the definition of PvP. You should also remember that there are no victims of suicide ganking, just willing volunteers.


just willing volunteers? are you saying that people who have been ganked are willing volunteers?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Auduin Ituin
Doomheim
#387 - 2015-02-10 10:49:08 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
ganking by definition is gang killing or player killing where a killer has a significant advantage over his victim, ie being part of a group, being higher sp, or attacking the victim while they are at low health (whoring?), or in this case shooting a player who has no guns


None of which contradicts the definition of PvP. You should also remember that there are no victims of suicide ganking, just willing volunteers.


just willing volunteers? are you saying that people who have been ganked are willing volunteers?

Based on the Golden Rules, yes.
Quote:
You consent to PvP when you click "undock".
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#388 - 2015-02-10 11:00:00 UTC
"You consent to PvP when you click "undock"."

this isnt really true otherwise there would be no concord and no punishment for ganking, anyway im gonna spin some ships and call myself a proper pvper for blueballing someone somewhere and claiming victory because i still live Lol

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#389 - 2015-02-10 11:04:53 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
ganking by definition is gang killing or player killing where a killer has a significant advantage over his victim, ie being part of a group, being higher sp, or attacking the victim while they are at low health (whoring?), or in this case shooting a player who has no guns


None of which contradicts the definition of PvP. You should also remember that there are no victims of suicide ganking, just willing volunteers.


just willing volunteers? are you saying that people who have been ganked are willing volunteers?


Yes. We all know what's required to make us ~99.9% safe from being ganked. If someone elects not to take the appropriate action and their pixels get asploded it's entirely their fault.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Black Pedro
Mine.
#390 - 2015-02-10 11:09:57 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
"You consent to PvP when you click "undock"."

this isnt really true otherwise there would be no concord and no punishment for ganking, anyway im gonna spin some ships and call myself a proper pvper for blueballing someone somewhere and claiming victory because i still live Lol

It is exactly true.

CCP New Pilot FAQ wrote:
5.3 SOME PLAYER JUST SHOT ME; IS THAT ALLOWED?
In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core. If the other pilot had no right to attack you then CONCORD will track him down and punish him for his crimes, so long as the attack took place in high security space.


CONCORD only punishes offenders after the fact and does not provide protection. The safety of your ships is your responsibility and if you choose to abdicate that, then you have to accept the consequences when somebody decides to relieve you of your ship and cargo.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#391 - 2015-02-10 14:59:33 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
what you are saying is ship spinning is also pvp because your avoiding people by spinning a ship and not undocking
Actually ship spinning became PvP, when they introduced the counter. As soon as people tried to beat others at it, it was PvP.

Although I do see the other connections associated here.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#392 - 2015-02-11 04:04:07 UTC
From what I understand any action that could affect eve is in fact a form of PvP. So Mumbuqe the goat farmer in Somalia, who has neither electricity, nor a computer, nor even an Eve subscription, is actually engaged in a form of PvP because he could pay for electricity, get a computer, sign up for Eve, log on, and present a target...so by failing to do so he is denying other players interaction, and engaged in PvP (but is it elite PvP??).
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#393 - 2015-02-11 06:48:46 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
From what I understand any action that could affect eve is in fact a form of PvP. So Mumbuqe the goat farmer in Somalia, who has neither electricity, nor a computer, nor even an Eve subscription, is actually engaged in a form of PvP because he could pay for electricity, get a computer, sign up for Eve, log on, and present a target...so by failing to do so he is denying other players interaction, and engaged in PvP (but is it elite PvP??).


Aside from the super-troll effort you put into that asinine comparison with an impoverished goat farmer, you are fully aware that the statement is true. Players IN THE GAME are in competition for money, power, sov, resources, etc.

So yes, mining in belts can be a form of PvP, as you are denying those assets to another player.

Undercutting prices on the market is also PvP, for the same reason.

But you already know this. Stop being daft.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#394 - 2015-02-11 08:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortlake
Veers Belvar wrote:
From what I understand any action that could affect eve is in fact a form of PvP. So Mumbuqe the goat farmer in Somalia, who has neither electricity, nor a computer, nor even an Eve subscription, is actually engaged in a form of PvP because he could pay for electricity, get a computer, sign up for Eve, log on, and present a target...so by failing to do so he is denying other players interaction, and engaged in PvP (but is it elite PvP??).


I can assure you, sir, that he does indeed play Eve. I know this because I myself happened upon the very laptop he uses to play it, in the cabin of a mysteriously abandoned yacht. I'd also like to point out that Mumbuqe hasn't tended goats for some time now. At least not since those nice Chinese gentlemen decided to give us their oil tanker.

*cough*

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#395 - 2015-02-12 09:13:55 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
well all the examples you have just said above are an issue because you have described pvp as being competition between 2 players within the same activity (which is pvp obviously), ganking is not direct ship to ship combat because the freighter is not involved nor can participate in combat, its 1 sided combat ie player killing/ganking. what you are saying is ship spinning is also pvp because your avoiding people by spinning a ship and not undocking

Ship spinning by itself is not PvP, although if you use undocking to deny a sure kill to an opponent I would argue that that is part of your PvP contest.

Ganking is by definition ship-to-ship combat. One ship targets another, activates weapons and one ship is destroyed. Just like targeting a shuttle or a pod, activating weapons and destroying it is PvP. It's different as in players is trying to escape while one player is trying to kill, but it is definitely PvP as both players have different objectives (one wants to not explode, one wants them to explode). There are also two different outcomes - one the industrial ship escapes and delivers its cargo intact, one it gets destroyed. This is all PvP - two players competing for a different outcome in a game.


Ship spinning is PvP if you are logged in to waste someone else's time like I am now, I have a war dec and I have someone trying to gather intel on me, so I sit in station to annoy them while my other character is being chased by angry Russians in a WH. So the war deccers have me as online on their watch list and might waste their time to see what I am up to or send someone to check me out while the intel gatherer can only sit in station going, does he even play. Eve PvP at its finest, if I keep this up I could graduate to AFK cloaky camping and then I will be super leet...



No no no. Leet is using a recon with ECCMs so only the guys with top scanning skills and bonused ships can find you (in their SoE ships with all stabs in the lows because they are leet too).

There are times when the game becomes more about preventing the game from being played than actually playing the game. And that's when it sucks. But lately I've been toying with the totally cornball Firelfy Online which is so corny, simple, and cartoony it's endearing and just plain makes me laugh (Aka: like I was playing a game). And without a drop of rum too.

But the "ship spinning is PVP" thing catches my attention because it's true. I sold all of my Stratios cruisers not because I have no use for them, but because I have enough skills that I don't need them and frankly they were worth more to me as ISK in my wallet than as stats on someone else's killboard. They can't gank my wallet. If I get caught in a wormhole it's going to be a T1 BC (which I used for years as an exploration ship) or an inty that at best will be 50 million ISK. If I don't want to be all like "Hurrrr durrr join an alliance/become a social chameleon" just to leave highsec then I'm going to do it on the cheap with "egg stealer" fits.

And steal eggs I have. Lots of them.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#396 - 2015-02-13 14:05:04 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Ship spinning is PvP if you are logged in to waste someone else's time like I am now, I have a war dec and I have someone trying to gather intel on me, so I sit in station to annoy them while my other character is being chased by angry Russians in a WH. So the war deccers have me as online on their watch list and might waste their time to see what I am up to or send someone to check me out while the intel gatherer can only sit in station going, does he even play. Eve PvP at its finest, if I keep this up I could graduate to AFK cloaky camping and then I will be super leet...



No no no. Leet is using a recon with ECCMs so only the guys with top scanning skills and bonused ships can find you (in their SoE ships with all stabs in the lows because they are leet too).

There are times when the game becomes more about preventing the game from being played than actually playing the game. And that's when it sucks. But lately I've been toying with the totally cornball Firelfy Online which is so corny, simple, and cartoony it's endearing and just plain makes me laugh (Aka: like I was playing a game). And without a drop of rum too.

But the "ship spinning is PVP" thing catches my attention because it's true. I sold all of my Stratios cruisers not because I have no use for them, but because I have enough skills that I don't need them and frankly they were worth more to me as ISK in my wallet than as stats on someone else's killboard. They can't gank my wallet. If I get caught in a wormhole it's going to be a T1 BC (which I used for years as an exploration ship) or an inty that at best will be 50 million ISK. If I don't want to be all like "Hurrrr durrr join an alliance/become a social chameleon" just to leave highsec then I'm going to do it on the cheap with "egg stealer" fits.

And steal eggs I have. Lots of them.


That's an excellent way to do it my friend, by the way thanks for your WH protocals, worked very well and the one time I ignored it I got chased by very angry Russians as detailed above. I think I might well switch to Interceptors too, I am just running around looking at things and the interceptor is great for it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#397 - 2015-02-13 19:20:27 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Ship spinning is PvP if you are logged in to waste someone else's time like I am now, I have a war dec and I have someone trying to gather intel on me, so I sit in station to annoy them while my other character is being chased by angry Russians in a WH. So the war deccers have me as online on their watch list and might waste their time to see what I am up to or send someone to check me out while the intel gatherer can only sit in station going, does he even play. Eve PvP at its finest, if I keep this up I could graduate to AFK cloaky camping and then I will be super leet...



No no no. Leet is using a recon with ECCMs so only the guys with top scanning skills and bonused ships can find you (in their SoE ships with all stabs in the lows because they are leet too).

There are times when the game becomes more about preventing the game from being played than actually playing the game. And that's when it sucks. But lately I've been toying with the totally cornball Firelfy Online which is so corny, simple, and cartoony it's endearing and just plain makes me laugh (Aka: like I was playing a game). And without a drop of rum too.

But the "ship spinning is PVP" thing catches my attention because it's true. I sold all of my Stratios cruisers not because I have no use for them, but because I have enough skills that I don't need them and frankly they were worth more to me as ISK in my wallet than as stats on someone else's killboard. They can't gank my wallet. If I get caught in a wormhole it's going to be a T1 BC (which I used for years as an exploration ship) or an inty that at best will be 50 million ISK. If I don't want to be all like "Hurrrr durrr join an alliance/become a social chameleon" just to leave highsec then I'm going to do it on the cheap with "egg stealer" fits.

And steal eggs I have. Lots of them.


That's an excellent way to do it my friend, by the way thanks for your WH protocals, worked very well and the one time I ignored it I got chased by very angry Russians as detailed above. I think I might well switch to Interceptors too, I am just running around looking at things and the interceptor is great for it.



See on the discussion of wormholes I have used the term "20 Russian Tengus" over the years..
I did not invent that term. Lol

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#398 - 2015-02-15 05:17:30 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
From what I understand any action that could affect eve is in fact a form of PvP. So Mumbuqe the goat farmer in Somalia, who has neither electricity, nor a computer, nor even an Eve subscription, is actually engaged in a form of PvP because he could pay for electricity, get a computer, sign up for Eve, log on, and present a target...so by failing to do so he is denying other players interaction, and engaged in PvP (but is it elite PvP??).


Aside from the super-troll effort you put into that asinine comparison with an impoverished goat farmer, you are fully aware that the statement is true. Players IN THE GAME are in competition for money, power, sov, resources, etc.

So yes, mining in belts can be a form of PvP, as you are denying those assets to another player.

Undercutting prices on the market is also PvP, for the same reason.

But you already know this. Stop being daft.


Missing the point as usual. Defining all human activity as a subset of Eve PvP is well...dumb. Logging off to going to the store is not PvP. Unsubscribing is not PvP. Closing your client to go play World of Tanks is not PvP. And mining to amass wealth for yourself, is, just like the failure to do so, not PvP.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2015-02-15 05:23:09 UTC
I must admit I have only read the OP. To answer your question:

Yes Eve is getting to soft. No the change to internal corp PVP is not part of the problem. I believe it is a good rational shift.
Jallukola
#400 - 2015-02-16 14:28:25 UTC
Interfectorem Tacet wrote:

People seem to forget EVE is often tauted as one of, if not, the most hardcore/difficult games on the market because of the vast amount of things that you can do.


EVE is pretty smalltime compared to AO though, only fested by booster alts instead of actual alts.

All posts and mails screencapped and time stamped, including out of EVE, you will not reverse on me.

Might come in handy!