These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

End of the Awoxer? Is eve getting too soft?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#281 - 2015-02-05 19:02:50 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
You are the ones complaining because they jump to npc corps and you cant wardec them, and force them to the pvp that you want, when these corps disband that you complain about they are obviously worthless corps that you chose to wardec, you dont wardec for a good fight you wardec for easy targets, maybe you should start wardeccing pvp corps and actually go and figjt them instead of waiting for a defencless ship to cross your path, i mean your actually complaining that an industrial corp wont fight you, it sounds rather lame
This.

Wardeccers choose the targets they do for easy points on a killboard and complain when people evade them, while there are plenty of people that would willingly fight back. This is no different from an industry corp taking the easy and cheap way out of a wardec. Want the target to react differently? Pick a different target.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2015-02-05 19:22:52 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:


You are the ones complaining because they jump to npc corps and you cant wardec them,


Never complained about that. Infact, we encourage using out-of-game alts and ask people to drop corp if they cant handle wardecs.

Quote:

and force them to the pvp that you want, when these corps disband that you complain about they are obviously worthless corps that you chose to wardec, you dont wardec for a good fight you wardec for easy targets, maybe you should start wardeccing pvp corps and actually go and figjt them instead of waiting for a defencless ship to cross your path


Sounds like youre the one who's complaining.

You might say "*Gasp*! The strong preying on the weak!? Utterly unheard of! This is Hello Kitty space adventure, not Eve online! Oh wait..."

But people wardec for profit, all the time. Nothing wrong with that. Not all wardecs are after good fights, many people wardec to make money and see their killboards light up. And just because youre looking for a good fight, doesnt mean you also dont want to profit off of a wardec, either.

And guess what, Youll make more profit wardeccing an industrial corp. Because, as i said before, Industrial corps specialize in making isk. Whether or not youll get a good fight out of it, is entirely up to the Industrial corp, however.

Quote:
i mean your actually complaining that an industrial corp wont fight you, it sounds rather lame


Not at all. Im pointing out the fact that the industrials who complain about how they "Cant fight back, are utterly defenceless and powerless to stop the big meanies from picking on them" is utter and complete BS. As i stated before, there are other ways to end the war, other ways to fight back.

I have a very little tolerance for people who think that they are utterly powerless to do something, when infact theyve been granted the means to do it.
Captain Brace
Perkone
Caldari State
#283 - 2015-02-05 20:18:00 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I'd like to make mining "a little bit harder" by adding a captcha for each cycle of each laser.


While I love this idea, I also think they might consider adding loot spew to asteroids instead.

I mean, unless they're in favor of botting, surely they wouldn't mind having their lives made just "a little bit harder" for the sake of the health of the game?



This might actually make it a little easier considering that mobile tractor units exist.

Unless the idea was to make it exactly like the loot spew mechanic in that you'd have to click everything real fast. Man the cost of minerals would sky-rocket!

+1 this idea.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2015-02-05 20:43:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
You are the ones complaining because they jump to npc corps and you cant wardec them, and force them to the pvp that you want, when these corps disband that you complain about they are obviously worthless corps that you chose to wardec, you dont wardec for a good fight you wardec for easy targets, maybe you should start wardeccing pvp corps and actually go and figjt them instead of waiting for a defencless ship to cross your path, i mean your actually complaining that an industrial corp wont fight you, it sounds rather lame
This.

Wardeccers choose the targets they do for easy points on a killboard and complain when people evade them, while there are plenty of people that would willingly fight back. This is no different from an industry corp taking the easy and cheap way out of a wardec. Want the target to react differently? Pick a different target.

Im not sure why she quoted me though. I never said wardec avoiding should be removed, infact we encourage our corp mates to leave our corp if they cant handle the wardec, and sometimes kick corpmates who just dont seem to get it.

But I dont think the people who are complaining about people evading them, are complaining because they want the opponents to fight back. I think it has to do with the fact that its far too easy to avoid wardecs.

This was the central complaint with regards to, for example, James 315 and his corp. When people kept wardeccing him in order to kill his bumping ship, he just kept closing his corp to avoid the wardec, and then proclaimed victory because creating a new corp only cost 1 mill, while wardeccing cost 50 million isk(only 35 mill or so at the time), stating a 35:1 ratio of isk cost.

Our corp, for example, has been wardecced by Marmite, deadly fingertips, break a wish, etc, many times. Weve had idiots who lost ships, and we had to kick them out cause they were being idiots, no matter how many times we tried to educate them. I even lost a ship to Marmite(it was empty and a throwaway Iteron 5 though so i didnt really care).

Did those wardecs mildly annoy me? Sure. Do i think that avoiding wardecs is still far too easy? Absolutely.
Captain Brace
Perkone
Caldari State
#285 - 2015-02-05 20:48:11 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
One more bad idea in a whole year of bad ideas.

No skillpont loss, random bans for people, and now a safety switch for corp aggression.

What's next? How about I press the Ctrl key to take cover and have my health regenerate?

This game is being nerfed into oblivion and soon it will be just another cookie cutter theme park where everyone is a winner.



I suppose what i am going to say has probably been said before but i have a feeling that you're right and the reason is that those types of games (those which cater to the widest possible audience) make the most money.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#286 - 2015-02-05 21:12:34 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
You are the ones complaining because they jump to npc corps and you cant wardec them, and force them to the pvp that you want, when these corps disband that you complain about they are obviously worthless corps that you chose to wardec, you dont wardec for a good fight you wardec for easy targets, maybe you should start wardeccing pvp corps and actually go and figjt them instead of waiting for a defencless ship to cross your path, i mean your actually complaining that an industrial corp wont fight you, it sounds rather lame
This.

Wardeccers choose the targets they do for easy points on a killboard and complain when people evade them, while there are plenty of people that would willingly fight back. This is no different from an industry corp taking the easy and cheap way out of a wardec. Want the target to react differently? Pick a different target.

Im not sure why she quoted me though. I never said wardec avoiding should be removed, infact we encourage our corp mates to leave our corp if they cant handle the wardec, and sometimes kick corpmates who just dont seem to get it.

But I dont think the people who are complaining about people evading them, are complaining because they want the opponents to fight back. I think it has to do with the fact that its far too easy to avoid wardecs.

This was the central complaint with regards to, for example, James 315 and his corp. When people kept wardeccing him in order to kill his bumping ship, he just kept closing his corp to avoid the wardec, and then proclaimed victory because creating a new corp only cost 1 mill, while wardeccing cost 50 million isk(only 35 mill or so at the time), stating a 35:1 ratio of isk cost.

Our corp, for example, has been wardecced by Marmite, deadly fingertips, break a wish, etc, many times. Weve had idiots who lost ships, and we had to kick them out cause they were being idiots, no matter how many times we tried to educate them. I even lost a ship to Marmite(it was empty and a throwaway Iteron 5 though so i didnt really care).

Did those wardecs mildly annoy me? Sure. Do i think that avoiding wardecs is still far too easy? Absolutely.


it was really just in general towards wardeccers, i assumed you were a wardeccer by your quote you made on the other guy who commented earlier, wasnt singling you out

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Light Sigh No
Doomheim
#287 - 2015-02-05 21:36:42 UTC

Yes, CCP to make best game for players is to remove all PVP in entire game which makes gameplay fun for all and increase the quality of playerbase.

Now we can all agree!
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2015-02-05 21:50:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I'm going to ask this again because I never do get an answer - why the obsession with shooting easy targets that have no idea how to fight another player? If people want to stack ISK in highsec, why not let them?

The answer to your question is amazingly obvious. So much so that you've even built it into the question without realizing it.

It is amazingly profitable to do aggressive pvp in high-sec. Instead of fighting for the right to grind money in null-sec, you cut away the middleman and get money dumped right into your wallet for way less work that doesn't even require setting an alarm clock for weird hours. And by extension of this, high-sec pvp is also very entertaining, especially when the real-life threats start getting thrown at you.

Does this answer your question?


I just wanted to hear someone say it. "Because it's fun and easy."

You complain about people making too much ISK in highsec (I don't see how it's more than null aside from incursions which I have no experience with) and yet think it should be easier for pvp focus players with lots of skillpoints and isk and friends with same to get lolzy killmails with little to no risk.

If you put all the money in unsecured space the biggest blobs will just sit on it. Highsec is good for the game, highsec griefers taking their shiny fleets out of whatever trade hub they station game/wardec camp all day and going to shake things up in low or null would be even better.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2015-02-05 22:15:34 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Explain please how a group of non-combat focused players or simply newer players is supposed to defend themselves against people who pinpoint them with locator agents and neutral scouts, gank them with t3/t2 and faction cruisers, and then redock and go back to carebearing on an alt while they wait for another target?

I've been on the receiving end of that. It's nearly impossible to fight and it's certainly not fun having to look over your shoulder constantly for a group of losers who hide in station in the face of any real opposition and only undock to drop 5b ISK worth of shiny on solo targets. The only defense and obvious defense is to use NPC alts to grind ISK, leading me back to what I said in another thread - wardecs are a method by which bittervets too risk averse to do real PvP get to explode newbies and casual players whilst flying blinged out gank boats which would survive all of an hour outside highsec.

And you'd like to force everyone out of NPC corps so you and your friends with near perfect subcap skills and a specialization in hisec warfare can just crap all over them. GO TO NULL OR LOW. If you want good fights. Which you don't.

Nothing is stopping you from getting players like this on your side for protection, save for your own greed and/or ignorance. You could easily recruit pvpers or hire mercenaries for protection, but you don't, because it's plainly obvious that there aren't enough incentives for sticking around in player-owned corporations to warrant the investment. If player corporation members made much more money than NPC corporation members, there would be.


What good is another Merc corp going to be against guys that only undock for 3-5 minutes at a time to gank, or camp trade hubs all day? I read minerbumping for a good chuckle every now and again and there's countless instances of people paying mercs for "protection" from gankers or wardeccers which is just free ISK for marmite because a corp of pvp toons who do their carebearing on alts is simply not vulnerable the way their targets are. Please don't pretend this is an effective defensive option. Doesn't Marmite have enough ISK already?

The whole point of my argument is that corps with capable pvp pilots don't get wardecced. Not often. You wardec mining and industrial corps because they're easy and react with hilarious rage when you explode them. Half the time they don't even know they're decced until a battlecruiser lands on top of them. If they have one or two capable pilots you just blob them or avoid them. Don't pretend a corp of new players or people with no interest in combat is going to have a chance against a collection of experienced hisec fighters with tons of money and SP and money and friends of the same ilk. Forcing pvp on other players should require effort.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2015-02-05 22:18:34 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
just out of curiosity what risks do you actually have when you wardec an industrial corp?


One would think none.

but a tight group that works together can hurt wardeccers.

I have been pleasantly surprised before. I can ask your group the same question. What risk do you face when you blob somebody?


You might get blobbed because you fight solo (according to what I can see, dunno if you use supporting alts besides scouts).


That's admirable, but I'd say confidently that most highsec wardec spammers are not so brave.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#291 - 2015-02-05 23:39:16 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Explain please how a group of non-combat focused players or simply newer players is supposed to defend themselves against people who pinpoint them with locator agents and neutral scouts, gank them with t3/t2 and faction cruisers, and then redock and go back to carebearing on an alt while they wait for another target?


Not by dec dodging like a chickenshit, that's for sure.

But since it's fairly clear to me that you don't actually want advice, you just want to bellyache about people being allowed to shoot you, this is what I offer as advice.

See, to me, it's all about attitude. I've been known to pass over or even reimburse my awox victims if they are good sports about it. If you have a good attitude, you get props, advice if you need it, and even support. If not, then you can burn for all I care, an eternal victim good for nothing but being destroyed for the amusement of others.

I'm hardly alone in this perspective, by the way.

Quote:

And you'd like to force everyone out of NPC corps so you and your friends with near perfect subcap skills and a specialization in hisec warfare can just crap all over them. GO TO NULL OR LOW. If you want good fights. Which you don't.


No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec, whether you like it or not.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2015-02-06 00:57:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Explain please how a group of non-combat focused players or simply newer players is supposed to defend themselves against people who pinpoint them with locator agents and neutral scouts, gank them with t3/t2 and faction cruisers, and then redock and go back to carebearing on an alt while they wait for another target?


Not by dec dodging like a chickenshit, that's for sure.

But since it's fairly clear to me that you don't actually want advice, you just want to bellyache about people being allowed to shoot you, this is what I offer as advice.

See, to me, it's all about attitude. I've been known to pass over or even reimburse my awox victims if they are good sports about it. If you have a good attitude, you get props, advice if you need it, and even support. If not, then you can burn for all I care, an eternal victim good for nothing but being destroyed for the amusement of others.

I'm hardly alone in this perspective, by the way.

Quote:

And you'd like to force everyone out of NPC corps so you and your friends with near perfect subcap skills and a specialization in hisec warfare can just crap all over them. GO TO NULL OR LOW. If you want good fights. Which you don't.


No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec, whether you like it or not.


You did not address my question of how a highsec industrial corp with new and noncombat skilled players, without contacts and friends amongst the wardec/Hisec PvP community, who are trying to do pve activities, are supposed to deal with people who just agent locate > neut scout > gank > dock (rinse & repeat) and then go back to grinding ISK on their alts or gatecamping in Vecamia.

There is no effective way to fight back other than staying logged or staying out of high with the decked characters. You could spring a trap with some cleverness and organization but that's a reach for people with limited knowledge of combat. And vs. Non morons it will work once.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#293 - 2015-02-06 00:59:58 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

If you put all the money in unsecured space the biggest blobs will just sit on it. Highsec is good for the game, highsec griefers taking their shiny fleets out of whatever trade hub they station game/wardec camp all day and going to shake things up in low or null would be even better.


Two wrongs do not make a right.

Compare and contrast WH space to Sov Space, in terms of bottom up active income and top down passive income from moons. We could spill a lot of ink about the problems of Sov, but its a different topic, and something that obviously is a focus of a lot of attention. What is relevant here is the bottom up, accessible income.

Hi Sec is BAD for the game, at least under the current paradigm, because it is always better to sit in high sec and enjoy almost perfect security for only slightly reduced income. You absolutely cannot fault Hi Sec antagonists for hunting there as that's where the targets are at. It would be far more interesting if the income structures were altered so Low Sec or NPC nullsec were more profitable, so that you actually would get people interested in other security bands, and then perhaps, the antagonists would have another place to actually create content. If you want to build a better pirate, you have to build them a New Eden that actually adequately rewards risk taking.

It's not all that different from an ecosystem. It takes a very dumb shark to hunt where there are no fish.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#294 - 2015-02-06 01:16:39 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

You did not address my question


That was deliberate. Like I said, it's about attitude.


Quote:

There is no effective way to fight back other than staying logged or staying out of high with the decked characters.


False.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vector Symian
0 Fear
#295 - 2015-02-06 01:31:06 UTC
Hrrrmmm Hrrmmm Hrrmmmm

It is simple you Noobelahs wanna cry bout having the button or not having the button but this is the simple cyber reality-

See an increase of spying , np corps aggression, lazy care bear war targets and badly run hightax corps...Yay for me

I am not a fan of have my corp assets stolen but I will (sure as Jitas got scammers) get into badly run tyrannical corps and recruit them into

my badly run ...um slightly tyrannical....Alliance Shocked...oh lawdy

-but I don't tax so I am immediately awesome

simply set your tax to zero and we will take you into our loving graces

Donation based Npc Pilot chaos for the win ;)
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2015-02-06 02:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Solonius Rex
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Explain please how a group of non-combat focused players or simply newer players is supposed to defend themselves against people who pinpoint them with locator agents and neutral scouts, gank them with t3/t2 and faction cruisers, and then redock and go back to carebearing on an alt while they wait for another target?


Not by dec dodging like a chickenshit, that's for sure.

But since it's fairly clear to me that you don't actually want advice, you just want to bellyache about people being allowed to shoot you, this is what I offer as advice.

See, to me, it's all about attitude. I've been known to pass over or even reimburse my awox victims if they are good sports about it. If you have a good attitude, you get props, advice if you need it, and even support. If not, then you can burn for all I care, an eternal victim good for nothing but being destroyed for the amusement of others.

I'm hardly alone in this perspective, by the way.

Quote:

And you'd like to force everyone out of NPC corps so you and your friends with near perfect subcap skills and a specialization in hisec warfare can just crap all over them. GO TO NULL OR LOW. If you want good fights. Which you don't.


No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec, whether you like it or not.


You did not address my question of how a highsec industrial corp with new and noncombat skilled players, without contacts and friends amongst the wardec/Hisec PvP community, who are trying to do pve activities, are supposed to deal with people who just agent locate > neut scout > gank > dock (rinse & repeat) and then go back to grinding ISK on their alts or gatecamping in Vecamia.

There is no effective way to fight back other than staying logged or staying out of high with the decked characters. You could spring a trap with some cleverness and organization but that's a reach for people with limited knowledge of combat. And vs. Non morons it will work once.


Use your isk. Hire mercenaries of your own. Hire bodygaurds to protect you. Get in touch with the person who wardecced you and work out a deal. There are a myriad of things that dont require any PVP combat skills(or friends within the wardec/hisec PVP community, as), that end wars, easily.

And if you dont have the resources to do that, then you really shouldnt be a CEO, hiring new players to your corp, at all.

Quite frankly, sh*t CEO's starting sh*t corporations and then recruiting new players, is one of the worst experiences for new players, and cause a lot of greif and quitting for them. If you dont have the means to run, and more importantly, protect your corp, then you shouldnt be a CEO, and you certainly shouldnt be recruiting new players into your corp. If you do, you are going to be contributing to the downfall of new players by giving them the worst possible new player experience.
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#297 - 2015-02-06 02:05:59 UTC
I've never been an AWOXer nor an AWOXee. It's not how I want to play the game. I still support keeping it in game as it exists right now. There are a lot of lessons for players to learn in EVE, and a goodly portion of them come after the tutorials. Highsec as it exists right now is relatively "safe." (I know, it's a filthy word - I apologize for uttering such a Bad Thing on the forums.)

Wardecs, at least the ones I've seen, are a joke, with perhaps a few exceptions. "ZOMG, we can play undock games with our spiffy blingmobiles!" That's a system more in need of attention than the AWOXing (non-)issue.

I'm on the fence about the "social corps," but it's worth seeing how they work out, I guess.

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Elyham
Perkone
Caldari State
#298 - 2015-02-06 02:09:35 UTC
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:


I'm on the fence about the "social corps," but it's worth seeing how they work out, I guess.


I think it is a fabulous idea. I would love to socialize while awoxing!
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2015-02-06 03:08:39 UTC
Elyham wrote:


I think it is a fabulous idea. I would love to socialize while awoxing!


Hopefully you are better at it than some of these so-called "infiltrators" I've seen lately, characters that have been through multiple corps already and claim not to know how asteroid belts work, while inadvertently dropping EVE lingo like a multi-year vet. Give these kids some acting lessons, please. Amateur hour!
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2015-02-06 03:20:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

You did not address my question


That was deliberate. Like I said, it's about attitude.


Quote:

There is no effective way to fight back other than staying logged or staying out of high with the decked characters.


False.


That's right, go hide under that blanket of smug elitism.